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Alcohol - a world wide phenomena
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If you see my thorough study, you can see I know what the word used is. I also provide numerous examples where wine has nothing to do with alcohol. Did you see my evidence?
I also asked what the context of Ecclesiastes 9 shares and if you wanted to consider it with me. Do you?
If you want to continue to rely upon a source which is not Bible, that is your prerogative, but that is not how scripture tells us to understand scripture (Isaiah 28:10,13; Isaiah 8:20, etc).
Remember what I said about people reading the bible through spiritual beer goggles, and that includes concordances which do not take into consideration context of the word in question.
Would you like me to show you the context, or are you not interested, and would rather continue with an unscriptural source as definition?
I also asked what the context of Ecclesiastes 9 shares and if you wanted to consider it with me. Do you?
If you want to continue to rely upon a source which is not Bible, that is your prerogative, but that is not how scripture tells us to understand scripture (Isaiah 28:10,13; Isaiah 8:20, etc).
Remember what I said about people reading the bible through spiritual beer goggles, and that includes concordances which do not take into consideration context of the word in question.
Would you like me to show you the context, or are you not interested, and would rather continue with an unscriptural source as definition?
Getting drunk is frowned upon in the New Testament. Excessive consumption should disqualify someone from being an elder. Apart from that, not a lot is said. I've heard both sides of the argument, that some consumption or that total abstinence is required. I think it twists the scriptures (sorry, Baptists) to say that total abstinence is Biblical. However, I very rarely imbibe these days. Most of the red wine ends up in bolognese.
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This is a topic I've thought about and examined in the Scriptures. So be warned, long post incoming.
First, some background. I come from pretty much a teetotaler family. Bible believing Christians who generally drink no alcohol and don't have it in the home. There are some family remedies involving alcohol but that's something that only was broken out the last few years as my grandparents and now my parents are aging. And no one in my immediate family consumes alcohol regularly. The churches I grew up in typically took a very anti-alcohol stance. One actually required people to sign a statement saying they would consume NO alcohol in order to be members. But that church was very hypocritical in enforcement. People in positions of influence in the church were regular drinkers, and the pastoral staff simply turned a blind eye. Not good. The pastor of the Tennessee church I am looking to attend also says that Christians should not drink at all.
I disagree with the idea that Christians cannot drink. Here are my Scriptural reasons why.
Firstly, in the Old Testament, there was something called a Nazarite vow, which involved someone taking a vow of service to God and it involved things like not cutting hair, touching dead bodies, or consuming alcohol. The fact that the vow involves a prohibition on alcohol shows that some consumption of it was going on in society at that time. See Numbers 6:3.
Secondly, the Bible actually gives some scenarios where consumption of alcohol (strong drink) is allowed. Here are some of those passages laid out.
Deu_14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Pro_31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
So we see that alcohol can be used as a painkiller, to raise the spirits/destress, or for pleasure/rejoicing/celebration.
Thirdly, there are passages in the Scriptures that don't make sense without the consideration of alcohol/fermentation. The parable of the wineskins is a good example. You don't put new wine into old bottles because as the wine ferments, the gases given off will burst the old wineskins, which have hardened over time. You put new wine into new bottles/wineskins, so as gases are given off during fermentation, the skins will swell and stretch and not burst.
There are certainly some guidelines and principles for consuming alcohol, however.
Alcohol should not be consumed by Levites performing service. See Leviticus 10:9.
Those who want to be more effective serving God should put aside alcohol. John the Baptist did not drink, the Nazarites, etc.
Proverbs 31:4 says that rulers or those who need to make serious decisions should not be given to alcohol.
Isaiah 5:11 says that habitual addictive drinking from morning until evening is a woeful state of being.
Proverbs 20:1 says that alcohol is associated with mockery and anger and it is unwise to over consume.
Ephesians 5:18 says not to drink to excess but to be controlled by the Spirit (and not by alcohol).
It seems clear to me that since the Bible does NOT simply say "Don't drink alcohol!" and gives us the above guidelines, that alcohol consumption is not completely prohibited.
I hardly ever drink. I eat a gluten free diet, so any wheat based liquor and beer are out anyways. I think the only drink I had in the last year was a family curative and it was awful. But I do take exception to those who tell others they cannot drink and that they are sinning if they do so.
CS Lewis and a great many other notable Christians of past days both drank AND smoked and probably did a variety of other "soft" drugs too.
Caffeine, anyone?
First, some background. I come from pretty much a teetotaler family. Bible believing Christians who generally drink no alcohol and don't have it in the home. There are some family remedies involving alcohol but that's something that only was broken out the last few years as my grandparents and now my parents are aging. And no one in my immediate family consumes alcohol regularly. The churches I grew up in typically took a very anti-alcohol stance. One actually required people to sign a statement saying they would consume NO alcohol in order to be members. But that church was very hypocritical in enforcement. People in positions of influence in the church were regular drinkers, and the pastoral staff simply turned a blind eye. Not good. The pastor of the Tennessee church I am looking to attend also says that Christians should not drink at all.
I disagree with the idea that Christians cannot drink. Here are my Scriptural reasons why.
Firstly, in the Old Testament, there was something called a Nazarite vow, which involved someone taking a vow of service to God and it involved things like not cutting hair, touching dead bodies, or consuming alcohol. The fact that the vow involves a prohibition on alcohol shows that some consumption of it was going on in society at that time. See Numbers 6:3.
Secondly, the Bible actually gives some scenarios where consumption of alcohol (strong drink) is allowed. Here are some of those passages laid out.
Deu_14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Pro_31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
So we see that alcohol can be used as a painkiller, to raise the spirits/destress, or for pleasure/rejoicing/celebration.
Thirdly, there are passages in the Scriptures that don't make sense without the consideration of alcohol/fermentation. The parable of the wineskins is a good example. You don't put new wine into old bottles because as the wine ferments, the gases given off will burst the old wineskins, which have hardened over time. You put new wine into new bottles/wineskins, so as gases are given off during fermentation, the skins will swell and stretch and not burst.
There are certainly some guidelines and principles for consuming alcohol, however.
Alcohol should not be consumed by Levites performing service. See Leviticus 10:9.
Those who want to be more effective serving God should put aside alcohol. John the Baptist did not drink, the Nazarites, etc.
Proverbs 31:4 says that rulers or those who need to make serious decisions should not be given to alcohol.
Isaiah 5:11 says that habitual addictive drinking from morning until evening is a woeful state of being.
Proverbs 20:1 says that alcohol is associated with mockery and anger and it is unwise to over consume.
Ephesians 5:18 says not to drink to excess but to be controlled by the Spirit (and not by alcohol).
It seems clear to me that since the Bible does NOT simply say "Don't drink alcohol!" and gives us the above guidelines, that alcohol consumption is not completely prohibited.
I hardly ever drink. I eat a gluten free diet, so any wheat based liquor and beer are out anyways. I think the only drink I had in the last year was a family curative and it was awful. But I do take exception to those who tell others they cannot drink and that they are sinning if they do so.
CS Lewis and a great many other notable Christians of past days both drank AND smoked and probably did a variety of other "soft" drugs too.
Caffeine, anyone?
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The context shows that the people new it was very good wine, so not low alcohol wine like new wine.
Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew: ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
The concept here is serve the best wine first while people are sober and can tell the difference between cheap wine and more expensive wine. Then when they are no longer sober you can give them the cheap wine because they usually won't know the difference because of the intoxication but in this example those that know this trick are surprised that they have received the better wine at the time when usually the cheaper wine is served. They are naturally impressed to still be receiving the better wine.
It is a metaphor for how God treats us. He starts out with the best, and continues that level, never reducing his amount of love or attention to those who are born again in his Son. And the new covenant can be compared this way as well. In many contracts, things will seem good at first but hidden fees or limitations can pop up unexpectedly but with the new covenant there is nothing hidden like that. It begins well and gets even better! Nothing will let you down, or trick you like switching out the best wine and giving lower quality later.
Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew: ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
The concept here is serve the best wine first while people are sober and can tell the difference between cheap wine and more expensive wine. Then when they are no longer sober you can give them the cheap wine because they usually won't know the difference because of the intoxication but in this example those that know this trick are surprised that they have received the better wine at the time when usually the cheaper wine is served. They are naturally impressed to still be receiving the better wine.
It is a metaphor for how God treats us. He starts out with the best, and continues that level, never reducing his amount of love or attention to those who are born again in his Son. And the new covenant can be compared this way as well. In many contracts, things will seem good at first but hidden fees or limitations can pop up unexpectedly but with the new covenant there is nothing hidden like that. It begins well and gets even better! Nothing will let you down, or trick you like switching out the best wine and giving lower quality later.
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Isn't it something how folks say 'Jesus turned water into wine' to excuse their drinking habits?
Jesus was sinless, period.
No one could turn water into fermented wine without risking making someone drunk. We can't control others' excesses.
Jesus couldn't possibly risk offending the righteous because that is a sin. Neither could He be guilty of contributing to someone else's drunkeness because that also is a sin.
Christians easily understand that it's wrong to drive a drunk to the liquor store to get him something to drink. So also would it be wrong to make it & hand it to them.
Jesus didn't sin, therefore it wasn't alcoholic wine.
Old wine was grape juice that slowly fermented due to age. Without proper yeast, the old wine would be bitter with a vinegarlike taste.
That's why the standard was to bring out the old wine last.
The scripture says to "study to show yourself approved" not"study to show yourself excused".
Jesus was sinless, period.
No one could turn water into fermented wine without risking making someone drunk. We can't control others' excesses.
Jesus couldn't possibly risk offending the righteous because that is a sin. Neither could He be guilty of contributing to someone else's drunkeness because that also is a sin.
Christians easily understand that it's wrong to drive a drunk to the liquor store to get him something to drink. So also would it be wrong to make it & hand it to them.
Jesus didn't sin, therefore it wasn't alcoholic wine.
Old wine was grape juice that slowly fermented due to age. Without proper yeast, the old wine would be bitter with a vinegarlike taste.
That's why the standard was to bring out the old wine last.
The scripture says to "study to show yourself approved" not"study to show yourself excused".
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The person you described probably had scruples. That is when someone is troubled by doing something that is actually permitted in scripture, and at times even encouraged. It is like someone that would feel it is wrong to eat food that was sacrificed to idols even though a more mature spiritual perception would be that eating this food is indeed acceptable because in idol is something that is created in the mind and does not represent something that is actually real.
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Paul told Timothy to "drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake". Why? Timothy had stomach problems from drinking the bad water perhaps? Maybe.
But we have to agree that Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little because he wouldn't touch the stuff.
Now if it was acceptable to drink fermented wine back then, why wasn't this young pastor/apostle already drinking it?
You will hardly find grape juice in the scriptures, yet wine is everywhere, because it all was called wine.
It makes total sense that the words "new wine" had to be used then to indicate whether it was strong drink or not.
Yes, Jesus made "new wine", so no one could get drunk on it.
Ask yourself, would you provide alcoholic wine for your child's wedding so someone would get into a drunken stupor & ruin it?
Let's not forget, even the children drank the grape juice because of the bad water.
Jesus contributing to the delinquincy of a minor...... really?
But we have to agree that Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little because he wouldn't touch the stuff.
Now if it was acceptable to drink fermented wine back then, why wasn't this young pastor/apostle already drinking it?
You will hardly find grape juice in the scriptures, yet wine is everywhere, because it all was called wine.
It makes total sense that the words "new wine" had to be used then to indicate whether it was strong drink or not.
Yes, Jesus made "new wine", so no one could get drunk on it.
Ask yourself, would you provide alcoholic wine for your child's wedding so someone would get into a drunken stupor & ruin it?
Let's not forget, even the children drank the grape juice because of the bad water.
Jesus contributing to the delinquincy of a minor...... really?
Maybe there were no minors present at the wedding of Cana. I can't really see how new wine (grape juice) would burst old wineskins. Of course, there was a deeper spiritual meaning to this but without the affect that the new wine would have in being inside of an old wineskin the example would be meaningless. You certainly can get drunk on new wine. Jesus and his disciples were accused of being drunk on wine because of the way they sometimes acted. There is no way anyone could get drunk on grape juice, but you can get drunk on wine.
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Yes they were accused. Accusations are nothing, baseless.
It's also baseless to believe all the children were home during weddings when we weren't there.
One thing we do know.... kids ALWAYS want something to drink.
Not satisfied? Go to the store & buy a a few large bottles of grapejuice. I guarantee that at least one bottle will have some pressure in it when you open it.
It's also baseless to believe all the children were home during weddings when we weren't there.
One thing we do know.... kids ALWAYS want something to drink.
Not satisfied? Go to the store & buy a a few large bottles of grapejuice. I guarantee that at least one bottle will have some pressure in it when you open it.
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