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Jul 3, 2011
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I wasn't contradicting the command of Christ, I was giving you straight up Scripture that came from Paul himself.

Matthew 5:21-48 was talking about personal relationships, not perfection.
So when Jesus says Be perfect He didnt mean it?

If you want some straight up scripture from Paul try these.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1st Corinthians 15:34a Awake to righteousness, and sin not

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.



I can show you plenty of scripture where Jesus AND Paul tells believers to abstain from sin. Yet you cannot show one that says sin is permissible. As matter of fact you would deny you believe it is permissible. However you claim it is inevitable. If it is inevitable it must be permissible.
 
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We will never be sinless like Jesus. Sorry. To think we could be on the same level AS Jesus spiritually is blasphemy. Because if we could be on the same level as Him, then what's the purpose of Him being our Savior after we've reached that level? We wouldn't need saved anymore if that was the case.
This is really sad. Paul says this...
Romans 6: 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life
Whoever sins is a servant of sin, but Jesus came to free us, and if we are truly free indeed then we would live no longer in sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If this was true and we are dead to self and sin, and it is Christ who live in us then we would indeed live a sin free life.

This is the truth of scripture. You need to run as far away from the false teachers you been sitting under and start learning from Holy spirit Himself.

The reason we need a Savior is to reconcile us to God and enable us to meet His standards
 
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And you know what, since we've been pardoned for, and since Jesus covered our sins with His blood, God doesn't see our sins. He sees US. Us, and only us.
Show me this in scripture. the part about God not seeing our present sins.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Originally Posted by 4runner

I am not sure why you posted these scriptures? Were you trying to contradict or dismiss the command of Christ?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Talk about an impossible request, but God is able to make us able. Some people actually argue that Jesus didn't mean what He said. They say He never meant we should be perfect, but mature in the Lord. However Jesus clarifies His statement by saying ''even as the Father in Heaven is perfect''. So if what they say is true then that means the Father is not perfect, but simply mature. Also if we are fully mature in Christ the we would be perfect, for our perfection is in Christ. Jesus was, and still is commanding us to live perfectly before Him.
yeah and everyone with an ounce of truthfulness in them knows that it does not say to BE God in Heaven. therefore the attribute of perfection is not all inclusive of God's other attributes.
Jesus nor I ever said we should be God, but Jesus did say be perfect, and I am pretty sure He meant it.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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To say that God cannot deliver you from sin is to outright deny the one God sent who came to take away your sin, 1 John 3:5. In Christ there is no sin, it is outside Christ that you are a sinner. God sent an example for us to follow, to be like, to imitate, to walk as He walks, to have the same mind, same Spirit, if that is not possible for you then you follow a different God from Him. It is impossible to be in sin and be in Christ. 1 John 3:9
Amen...absolutely correct.

To claim God cannot free us from sin, now that is blasphemy.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Garymac, welcome to CC and thank the Lord we have another Truth preacher here! Boy is the Lord busy with His Word around the World... AT LAST God is sending Truth out again to all people
Yes welcome Garymac, we need all the truth we can get in here.
 

lil_christian

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So when Jesus says Be perfect He didnt mean it?

If you want some straight up scripture from Paul try these.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1st Corinthians 15:34a Awake to righteousness, and sin not

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.



I can show you plenty of scripture where Jesus AND Paul tells believers to abstain from sin. Yet you cannot show one that says sin is permissible. As matter of fact you would deny you believe it is permissible. However you claim it is inevitable. If it is inevitable it must be permissible.
We are not under law but under grace....since when did grace come with conditions?? Grace means to give even though that person does not deserve it. I deserve to go to hell for all the things I've done. But guess what?? I've been given GRACE!

And you know what? I did a New Testament survey...I learned the full context and reason why Paul even wrote those books. And I can tell you right now, it was not for people to be sinless. It was to help corrupt churches see the truth.

If we were always perfect, all the time, why would anyone else want to be a Christian? We would be too perfect and it just does NOT work!

Paul sinned, too, even after he was saved. So you're saying you have less sin than Paul the Apostle? Or Peter? Or John?
 
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1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Read all of 1st John and not one or two verses better yet just read the portion of scripture you quoted in context and you will see that this is not saying we cannot be sinless, but rather that we should be.

1st John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1st John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


How did Jesus walk? Sinlessly, and so should we.
 
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Our sins are cleansed, but that doesn't mean we won't sin again.
You are exactly right we might. However that doesnt mean we have to

1st Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
God is able to keep us from sin.

Jude:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 
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We are not under law but under grace....since when did grace come with conditions?? Grace means to give even though that person does not deserve it. I deserve to go to hell for all the things I've done. But guess what?? I've been given GRACE!
show me the scripture you get your definition of grace from. That is what man teaches not God.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



Grace doesnt give you the right to sin, it give you the ability not to sin.

And you know what? I did a New Testament survey...I learned the full context and reason why Paul even wrote those books. And I can tell you right now, it was not for people to be sinless. It was to help corrupt churches see the truth.
Poor girl, you have been thoroughly indoctrinated

If we were always perfect, all the time, why would anyone else want to be a Christian? We would be too perfect and it just does NOT work!
This makes no since at all, the real reason dont want to be christian is because most so called christians are just like the world Jesus has called us to be different, and commands us not to sin.

Paul sinned, too, even after he was saved. So you're saying you have less sin than Paul the Apostle? Or Peter? Or John?
He may have but if he repented and then refrain from his sin Jesus would forgive him, and if he sinned again repented and refrain from sin Jesus would forgive again ect....
 

lil_christian

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Romans 3:10

10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;



Romans 4:7

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.



Romans 4:8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”



Romans 7: 14-15



The Conflict of Two Natures

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Romans 7:20

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.



Hebrews 11:12



12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
 
U

unclefester

Guest
How Made Perfect
Look into the Scriptures and read how we are “made perfect.” The Law demands perfection, if we are to enter Heaven. Now, how are we to be perfect?

Well, we are made absolutely perfect before the Law of God by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Jesus lived in the flesh, under Law, and He kept the Law perfectly. Then He died to satisfy the Law’s demands against sin. Thus, He established the Law. He fulfilled both the perceptive and penal sanctions of the Law.

This is the righteousness Christ wrought out for us. It is absolutely perfect. When God saves us, He clothes us with this righteousness, and we stand perfect before the Law. We don’t have another deed to do to fulfill the Law’s demands, for Christ did it all. Listen to the Scripture:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth -Rom. 10:4.

For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified -Heb. 10:14.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him -II Cor. 5:21.

Now, that’s how we are made perfect. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord, and Jesus Christ’s righteousness is given to us and thereby we are made holy.

Brother, sister, you can have all the so-called “sinless perfection” you can muster up, but I would not swap the perfect righteousness that is mine in Christ for all the fleshly righteousness of all the so-called “sinless” people in the world. The whole crowd of self-righteous, hypocritical, white-washed Pharisees will split Hell wide open without the perfect, holy, imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Matt. 5:19-20).

“Cannot Sin?”


I want to show you that the born-again person cannot sin in the new nature – (not the old, but the new) – the nature given to him when he was quickened by the Spirit. Listen to I John 3:9-”Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Notice that phrase, “he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” But according to the notion of the “sinless perfection” crowd, a Christian can sin! I heard one say over the radio just a few days ago that “if you sin after you’re saved, you’re lost again.” But this verse says that a saint cannot sin!

But, what will the “sinless perfection” crowd do with that verse? Will they accept it? If so, they will have to come on over and believe in eternal security, for if a person cannot sin, then he is secure eternally. But if they teach that one born of God can sin, then they deny God’s Word. Now, which horn will Mr. Sinless Perfection take? He is stabbed to death on either one.

Now, what does this verse teach? It is telling us that the man born of God does not and cannot sin, because the seed of God-the new nature begotten by the Spirit-remains in him. Now, the flesh isn’t born of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh. But the “new man”-the spiritual man-is born of God. It is this inward man-the new nature-that does not and cannot sin.

When God saved us, He did not change our old Adamic fleshly nature one particle; He simply gave us a new nature. Now, we have two: one of them wants to sin, the other fights against sin, and causes us to serve the Lord. All sin is of the old fleshly nature, and all good is of the spiritual nature. This new nature (new man) cannot sin and cannot even approve of a sinful thought.

Another verse that teaches us this same truth is I John 5:18-”We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

You see, here we have security again. The new man keeps himself, and the devil cannot touch him. The only nature the devil can touch is the old flesh. The old flesh is nothing but a mass of sin.

We won’t have this old body of sin in Heaven, for the Lord will give us a new body. No sinful thing can enter Heaven, so God doesn’t take the old sinful body to Heaven. Beloved, the very fact that Christians die, physically, proves that they are not sinless in the body. Do you realize that the only thing that causes either physical or eternal death is sin? Thus, if we were sinlessly prefect in the flesh, we would never die, for there would be no sin to cause us to die. In view of the fact that we all die, it is quite evident that no one is perfect in the old flesh.

Sinless Perfectionists Are Void of the Truth

Lastly, I want to call your attention to God’s indictment against those who loudly boast that they are sinless. Let us read in I John 1:8-”If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

Now, the next time you hear a so-called “sinless preacher” or “falling from grace” person tell you how holy he is, you just recall this verse, and remember that it states that such a person does not have the truth in him, and is deceived by himself. Yes, they deceive themselves, the verse says. Do you know what that means? It simply means that a person has hypocritically lied and said that he is sinless, and he has said it so long, he has deceived himself. You know, you can tell a lie for the truth so long that you yourself will believe it. That’s the case with so-called “sinless perfectionists.” They have deceived themselves.

But notice I John 1:10-”If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

You know, if a person were to say, “God you are a liar!” we would think that it is a horrible blasphemy. Well, when the so-called sinless, holy people of this world say they have no sin in the flesh, they make God a liar. Let’s read the verse again: “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” (I John 1:10). All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire, and the man who lies by saying his flesh is sinless is on the road to Hell, in front of the whole line of liars, for he has lied to God. God’s Word says that the flesh is full of sin, carnal, sold under sin, but the sinless perfectionist calls God a liar, and says, “Well, here’s one exception.”

These so-called “sinless perfectionists” know that we don’t tell people to “sin a little every day;” they know what we teach. We teach that good works are the fruits of being born of the Spirit; but those works are not motivated by the flesh, but by the Spirit. The flesh profits nothing. The Spirit, thank God, fights against our old flesh, and causes us to win the victory day-by-day.

The trouble with those who boast and talk about “sinless perfection” is that they are blind spiritually, and may need to be born again and clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. May God grant that it may be so.

In closing, let me say that the doctrine of sinless perfection will do one of two things to the person who believes it! It will either make a man (1) a self-righteous hypocrite, or (2) it will make him an infidel.

Now, here is why this is true. Only a hypocrite would profess to be perfect in the flesh. The most godly Christians who have ever lived were not those who boasted about being perfect in the flesh, but those who moaned over the sinfulness of their flesh. Nowhere in the Bible do the writers ever claim perfection in the flesh. Why, even in the spiritual realm, the Apostle Paul had this to say, even after he had been saved for a great number of years:

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus-Philippians 3:12-14.

Thus, the man who claims any perfection except that perfection which we have in Christ and the new nature, is a hypocrite. He is not sinless in the flesh and simply lies if he says that he is. He is exactly like the Pharisees of old who thought that they, too, were sinless in the flesh.

Now, this doctrine will make an infidel out of a man because anyone with common sense realizes that he cannot be perfect in the flesh. Thus, when one hears the doctrine of “sinless perfection,” and hears all the boasting of the bossy women and hen-pecked men who claim to be sinless, then that man will say, “Well, if that’s Christianity, then I don’t believe a word of it.”

Well, you don’t have to be a hypocrite or an infidel; if you will just take your Bible and study it, you will find that what I have preached to you is the Word of God, and that sinless perfection is of the devil.

——————————————————————————–

Pilgrim Publications
 
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No I am sorry. It is sad you have been taught such a horrible lie.
That's a cop-out. If we continue in the grace given us. His spirit will always lead us to the next step.

We walk by faith, not by sight.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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We might not always sin WILLFULLY, but we will sin. And The Word says so

Romans 7:20

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7: 14-15



The Conflict of Two Natures

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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Romans 3:10

10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;



Romans 4:7

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.



Romans 4:8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”



Romans 7: 14-15



The Conflict of Two Natures

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Romans 7:20

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.



Hebrews 11:12



12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.



We can go back and forth quoting scripture all day. the fact is until you believe that Christ can set you free you will remain in bondage
 
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That's a cop-out. If we continue in the grace given us. His spirit will always lead us to the next step.

We walk by faith, not by sight.
I agree, He will, but those that have been taught to believe what the church teaches all their lives have a harder time getting past false doctrine and to the next step. They first must realize that the pastor is not God.