All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

For those who wish to consider the possibility that the apostasia in 2 Thes 2 is the Rapture, you may look at the Dormition of Mary example at
The Apostasia (Departure) of 2 Thes 2:3 - THE RAPTURE / - BIBLE FORUM

Hizikyah · Dec 20, 2014

The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accept the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about their coming "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"

Here are some links

[video=youtube;thOxW19vsTg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOxW19vsTg[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deoOTqT-SMI

223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMZc_UXefg

Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvv2HPYdhMA

Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens

Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens - Telegraph

PROJECT LUCIFER
Vatican Observatory launches LUCIFER Telescope | PROJECT LUCIFER and the Vatican’s astonishing exo-theological plan for the arrival of an alien savior

“L.U.C.I.F.E.R., which stands for “Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research,” is a chilled instrument attached to a telescope in Arizona. And yes, it’s named for the Devil, whose name itself means “morning star” [and which] happens to be right next to the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham in Tucson.” — Rebecca Boyle, Popular Science Magazine"

University of Arizona, Vatican and Jesuits Name New Telescope ‘Lucifer’

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

NO REFERENCE TO LOSING SALVATION.
I am reminded of the Lord Jesus who said that once you were saved or cleansed of sin, you did not need a complete bath, but just a foot washing

2 Peter 2:20-22

You stick in forgiven where it does not appear. And the passage does not say "saved" or "salvation." A moralist who tries to follow the morality of the bible may escape from some defilements without a new birth.

There is nothing there about salvation, but an indication that if you have an unbelieving heart (are unsaved) as a mere professor of Christianity (as you appear to be) you may fall away from God. Like a dog who chased a truck, but never got to it, you may fall away from it. Indeed those who belong to Christ do hold their confidence in Him, not in water, to the end.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Again you don't quote on to 6:9 where the passage is explained.
:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. Thus the things said about professors in the preceding verses do not imply salvation.

But what about those who deny that salvation is a present possession? The writer is persuaded of salvation right now for the readers.

but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Take that one to heart, Kenneth.

Romans 11:19-22

Romans 11 speaks of Israel & gentiles as unitary wholes. the gentiles as a whole are called a unitary you. There is nothing said about losing salvation (never found in scripture). One can be cut off from God's blessing. As a group today is a day of salvation to gentiles, Israel set aside. That can change.

Rom 11 assures us that the gifts & calling of God are irrevocable.

He who began a good work in you will complete it.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, & they shall NEVER PERISH.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Elin · Dec 20, 2014

Atwood said:

"Near" does not mean imminent.

Paul is discussing "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" (2:1),

which is the "rapture" at the end of time and final judgment, as shown from the NT teachings here,

that the day of the Lord will not come until the great apostasy (falling away) and the man of

lawlessness is revealed (2:3).

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

Hizikyah said:

Lets see you prove that one.

That is a shameful attack for which you have not a shred of evidence.

"PROJECT BLUE BEAM," -- is that your theory, or moon beam?

Mattithyah is not the name of any book in the Bible.

The issue is what does God's Word teach, not the latest conspiracy theory.

Hizikyah · Dec 20, 2014

Hizikyah said:

Atwood said:

false prophets, false messiahs, serpents but no deception in modern days? huh?

Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Zechariah 11:17 (KJV), "Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened."

Psalm 2, "Why do the heathen rage, and the people plot vanity? The kings of the earth rise up, and the rulers take counsel against Yahweh and His Anointed, saying; Let us break their bands asunder; Let us cast their yoke of bondage from us. He Who sits in the heavens will laugh them to scorn; Yahweh will treat them with derision and contempt! He shall speak to them in wrath! He shall terrify them in His great displeasure, saying: I set My King on Mount Zion, My holy hill. I will proclaim the decree Yahweh declared; Yahweh said to me: You are My Son, this day I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance. The ends of the earth will be for Your possession. With a rod of iron You will break the nations; You will dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel! Be wise, therefore, all you rulers; be instructed, you judges of the earth. All of you serve Yahweh with reverence; you shall rejoice with trembling. Kiss the iSon, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled only a little. Blessed are they who will then put all their trust in mighty Yahweh; then they will stand as His Own Son."

kennethcadwell · Dec 20, 2014

Atwood said:

[/SIZE][/FONT]

NO REFERENCE TO LOSING SALVATION.
I am reminded of the Lord Jesus who said that once you were saved or cleansed of sin, you did not need a complete bath, but just a foot washing

[/SIZE]2 Peter 2:20-22

You stick in forgiven where it does not appear. And the passage does not say "saved" or "salvation." A moralist who tries to follow the morality of the bible may escape from some defilements without a new birth.

There is nothing there about salvation, but an indication that if you have an unbelieving heart (are unsaved) as a mere professor of Christianity (as you appear to be) you may fall away from God. Like a dog who chased a truck, but never got to it, you may fall away from it. Indeed those who belong to Christ do hold their confidence in Him, not in water, to the end.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Again you don't quote on to 6:9 where the passage is explained.
:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. Thus the things said about professors in the preceding verses do not imply salvation.

But what about those who deny that salvation is a present possession? The writer is persuaded of salvation right now for the readers.

but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Take that one to heart, Kenneth.

Romans 11:19-22

Romans 11 speaks of Israel & gentiles as unitary wholes. the gentiles as a whole are called a unitary you. There is nothing said about losing salvation (never found in scripture). One can be cut off from God's blessing. As a group today is a day of salvation to gentiles, Israel set aside. That can change.

Rom 11 assures us that the gifts & calling of God are irrevocable.

He who began a good work in you will complete it.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, & they shall NEVER PERISH.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Romans 11 is not speaking of the whole group of gentiles, for if say for an example between the two of us. If you start rejecting Christ and not obeying to follow His teachings you will be cut off, that will not affect me though as I continue to follow Him. To try to make it as only a group thing was a way to hide the truth in it.

And if you notice closely it is saying the same as Hebrews 3 that says you have become a partaker in Christ only if you stand firm in your faith to the end. Which in turn does not contradict but matches what Jesus said in Matthew 10:22 when He commissioned the Apostles to go out and spread the gospel. Endure to the end to be saved.

Then you say no mention of losing salvation to start off your response. We were not talking about losing salvation, we were talking about rather future sins are forgiven or not. At time of conversion, becoming a believer, only past and present sins are forgiven at that point of repentance.
Future sins have to still be confessed to be forgiven as 1 John says, and 2 Peter makes clear only the past/present forgiven.

2 Peter 1:9
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

2 interpretive blunders:
1) confusing the Day of the Lord with the Rapture or 2nd coming,
2) denying that Christ's coming is imminent.
This 2nd error is really serious.

Elin said:

It is clear as a bell in James 5. The coming is at hand & the judge is at the doors.
That is imminent. the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold, the judge standeth before the doors.

[/quote]Paul is discussing "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" (2:1),

The text does not say that the following discourse is about the Rapture or 2nd coming. The belief of an imminent Rapture does relieve any anxiety about the tribulation.

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture,
1 Thes 5 start = Day of the Lord / tribulation, which does not overtake the Church member as a thief because He is gone. The Church left in 1 Thes 4.

Why do you insert the word "great"? Do not add to scripture.

Apostasia means departure. It could be either literal or figurative (a doctrinal departure).

As I already posted, it may = the rapture, as in the Dormition of Mary.

Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the departure (apostasia) come first,

The Day of the Lord is not yet present nor is it at hand because some things have to happen first. Contrary to that, the Rapture is at hand & imminent. So don't worry about the Day of the Lord.

1 Thes 5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief: 5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness; 6 . . . For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Day of the Lord means sudden destruction (see Seal 6). The Rapture means salvation from the time of wrath.

ChristIsGod · Dec 20, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

I thought so. I reckon that's what a lot of folks believe. Thanks, Brother Kenneth. Kind of you, as usual, to reply!!!

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

By using the singular word you for the Gentiles, he is speaking of a whole group as one you.

[/quote] If you start rejecting Christ and not obeying to follow His teachings you will be cut off, that will not affect me though as I continue to follow Him.[/quote]

We are discussing salvation. Not "cut off," whatever that may mean. You bring in verses where save & salvation do not even occur. Lose & salvation never occur in a single verse together in the Bible.

But the Word of God tells me that I have eternal life & shall never perish.
Nothing present or future can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I trust my Savior, not my ability to hold out -- I don't make myself an idol.

Scripture in Mat does not say " Endure to the end to be saved." We are told that those who endure will be saved, with reference to saved from tribulation in the tribulation, not for sin to ever lasting life.

You could not be saved if your sins were not forgiven. And scripture tells the one who trusts Christ as Savior (not works or water) that His sins are forgiven; his trespasses are forgiven.

No passage ever says that only past sins are forgiven. Whatever sins a Christian has done, they are forgiven. This is always true. You keep repeating errors without scripture proof. You keep on denying the antecedent. A statement that we will be forgiven if we confess, does not imply anything about not confessing. The Christians sins are forgiven without exception with regard to his destiny. With regard to the wood shed, chastisement, to get forgiveness that excuses from chastisement is another matter.

2 Peter 1:9
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

And what about those who were never cleansed? They are surely blind.
And 2 Pet says nothing about whether or not present & future sins have been cleansed. But as Christ told Peter,

6 So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:

A believer in Christ is clean every whit because of His bath, He has been cleansed completely, washed by the blood of the Lamb. But nevertheless the feet may need washing by the Lord Jesus. Basically He is clean. He has a clean new nature begotten of God. But the believer also still has an old nature & sins on occasion.

ChristIsGod · Dec 20, 2014

Atwood said:

Thank you, Brother Atwood. I've truly studied Daniel chpts 7-12 intensely and just wondered on that one interpretation - of the one week being what some say that it is --- that's all that caused me wonder in those six chpts.

Thank you again -- and I'll wonder on a bit longer until I feel that bell & ringer go off - while I still have any bells or ringers.

kennethcadwell · Dec 20, 2014

Atwood said:

If you start rejecting Christ and not obeying to follow His teachings you will be cut off, that will not affect me though as I continue to follow Him.[/quote]

We are discussing salvation. Not "cut off," whatever that may mean. You bring in verses where save & salvation do not even occur. Lose & salvation never occur in a single verse together in the Bible.

But the Word of God tells me that I have eternal life & shall never perish.
Nothing present or future can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I trust my Savior, not my ability to hold out -- I don't make myself an idol.

Scripture in Mat does not say " Endure to the end to be saved." We are told that those who endure will be saved, with reference to saved from tribulation in the tribulation, not for sin to ever lasting life.

You could not be saved if your sins were not forgiven. And scripture tells the one who trusts Christ as Savior (not works or water) that His sins are forgiven; his trespasses are forgiven.

No passage ever says that only past sins are forgiven. Whatever sins a Christian has done, they are forgiven. This is always true. You keep repeating errors without scripture proof. You keep on denying the antecedent. A statement that we will be forgiven if we confess, does not imply anything about not confessing. The Christians sins are forgiven without exception with regard to his destiny. With regard to the wood shed, chastisement, to get forgiveness that excuses from chastisement is another matter.

2 Peter 1:9
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

And what about those who were never cleansed? They are surely blind.
And 2 Pet says nothing about whether or not present & future sins have been cleansed. But as Christ told Peter,

6 So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:

A believer in Christ is clean every whit because of His bath, He has been cleansed completely, washed by the blood of the Lamb. But nevertheless the feet may need washing by the Lord Jesus. Basically He is clean. He has a clean new nature begotten of God. But the believer also still has an old nature & sins on occasion.

[/QUOTE]

The thing is though that me and you are both gentile believers, if one of us and I pray to God it does not happen. Does not continue in God's grace, as Paul says in Galatians that we can fall from grace, that one will be cut off and have no salvation. The other one who continues in His grace/will is not affected and still remains in His grace.

kennethcadwell · Dec 20, 2014

ChristIsGod said:

No problem, I still have a long way to go in my studies in becoming a minister.
But one of the main things that got me interested in the field of ministry was scriptural prophecy studies....

Jackson123 · Dec 20, 2014

Hizikyah said:

The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accept the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about their coming "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"

Here are some links

[video=youtube;thOxW19vsTg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOxW19vsTg[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deoOTqT-SMI

223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMZc_UXefg

Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvv2HPYdhMA

Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens

Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens - Telegraph

PROJECT LUCIFER
Vatican Observatory launches LUCIFER Telescope | PROJECT LUCIFER and the Vatican’s astonishing exo-theological plan for the arrival of an alien savior

“L.U.C.I.F.E.R., which stands for “Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research,” is a chilled instrument attached to a telescope in Arizona. And yes, it’s named for the Devil, whose name itself means “morning star” [and which] happens to be right next to the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham in Tucson.” — Rebecca Boyle, Popular Science Magazine"

University of Arizona, Vatican and Jesuits Name New Telescope ‘Lucifer’

Lucifer is also the name of Chief of the devil. Is that coincident?

Malachi Martin, Ex Professor in Vatican, Ex high level assistance for 2 Pope and 16 best seller author, said that in 1963 Lucifer enthroned at st Paul Chapel, Vatican as the head of the catholic church.

WRITINGS OF MALACHI MARTIN

www.puritans.net/news/malachimartin.htm

Malachi Martin documents that a Black Mass was held in St Paul's Cathedral in 1963. ...Lucifer to his appropriate place" in the Vatican, as "head of the church." ... Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church.

ChristIsGod · Dec 21, 2014

Hizikyah said:

The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accept the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about their coming "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"

Here are some links

[video=youtube;thOxW19vsTg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOxW19vsTg[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deoOTqT-SMI

223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMZc_UXefg

Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvv2HPYdhMA

Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens

Pope Benedict XVI's astronomer: the Catholic Church welcomes aliens - Telegraph

PROJECT LUCIFER
Vatican Observatory launches LUCIFER Telescope | PROJECT LUCIFER and the Vatican’s astonishing exo-theological plan for the arrival of an alien savior

“L.U.C.I.F.E.R., which stands for “Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research,” is a chilled instrument attached to a telescope in Arizona. And yes, it’s named for the Devil, whose name itself means “morning star” [and which] happens to be right next to the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham in Tucson.” — Rebecca Boyle, Popular Science Magazine"

University of Arizona, Vatican and Jesuits Name New Telescope ‘Lucifer’

All of this is true except the last link. The one from Popular Science Magazine is true but the Vatican didn't name that telescope but it has their own on the same Mt. Graham near Tucson, AZ. That story can be found on their website - "Vatican Observatory" and "LUCI" as it's now called was Lucifer alrighty and can be found at mpe.mpg.de/ir/lucifer[copy and paste]. There a number of members of the Mount Graham International Observatory [MGIO] consortium and the copy and paste website guys that own LUCI are members of that bunch on that Mount along with the Vatican Observatory.

Atwood · Dec 21, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Kenneth, I surely wish that you were a believer in Christ as your only & sufficient Savior. Water, works, grocery list of hoops, will not save you. To be saved you need to abandon the idolatry of works-confidence, & do the God be merciful to me a sinner, & depend on the Lord Jesus for your eternal destiny.

What you have posted indicates that you have fallen from grace, if you ever got near it. You indeed have no salvation is you do not obtain it via the grace method.

I remember myself when I was in the sort of system you are now in. I could not tell anyone that if I died I would go to Heaven, because I had been taught the Sheep/Goat judgment was the condition of going to Heaven, a system of works, in which you never trust Christ, though John 3:16 is clear and:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

Trust Him & He will keep His promise.

the Word of God tells me that I have eternal life & shall never perish.
Nothing present or future can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I trust my Savior, not my ability to hold out -- I don't make myself an idol.

Scripture in Mat does not say " Endure to the end to be saved." We are told that those who endure will be saved, with reference to saved from tribulation in the tribulation, not for sin to ever lasting life.

You could not be saved if your sins were not forgiven. And scripture tells the one who trusts Christ as Savior (not works or water) that His sins are forgiven; his trespasses are forgiven.

No passage ever says that only past sins are forgiven. Whatever sins a Christian has done, they are forgiven. This is always true. You keep repeating errors without scripture proof. You keep on denying the antecedent. A statement that we will be forgiven if we confess, does not imply anything about not confessing. The Christians sins are forgiven without exception with regard to his destiny. With regard to the wood shed, chastisement, to get forgiveness that excuses from chastisement is another matter.

But as Christ told Peter,

6 So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:

A believer in Christ is clean every whit because of His bath, He has been cleansed completely, washed by the blood of the Lamb. But nevertheless the feet may need washing by the Lord Jesus. Basically He is clean. He has a clean new nature begotten of God. But the believer also still has an old nature & sins on occasion.

Look, now is the day of salvation. Why not repent of your dead works & depend on the loving Savior who offers you eternal life if only you will call upon Him in faith.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Kerry · Dec 21, 2014

I say again, It is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord. Where is we or I in that statement? Of course we must have faith in the work of the cross.

popeye · Dec 21, 2014

Wrong thread....sorry

kennethcadwell · Dec 21, 2014

Atwood said:

Kenneth, I surely wish that you were a believer in Christ as your only & sufficient Savior. Water, works, grocery list of hoops, will not save you. To be saved you need to abandon the idolatry of works-confidence, & do the God be merciful to me a sinner, & depend on the Lord Jesus for your eternal destiny.

What you have posted indicates that you have fallen from grace, if you ever got near it. You indeed have no salvation is you do not obtain it via the grace method.

I remember myself when I was in the sort of system you are now in. I could not tell anyone that if I died I would go to Heaven, because I had been taught the Sheep/Goat judgment was the condition of going to Heaven, a system of works, in which you never trust Christ, though John 3:16 is clear and:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

Trust Him & He will keep His promise.

the Word of God tells me that I have eternal life & shall never perish.
Nothing present or future can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I trust my Savior, not my ability to hold out -- I don't make myself an idol.

Scripture in Mat does not say " Endure to the end to be saved." We are told that those who endure will be saved, with reference to saved from tribulation in the tribulation, not for sin to ever lasting life.

You could not be saved if your sins were not forgiven. And scripture tells the one who trusts Christ as Savior (not works or water) that His sins are forgiven; his trespasses are forgiven.

No passage ever says that only past sins are forgiven. Whatever sins a Christian has done, they are forgiven. This is always true. You keep repeating errors without scripture proof. You keep on denying the antecedent. A statement that we will be forgiven if we confess, does not imply anything about not confessing. The Christians sins are forgiven without exception with regard to his destiny. With regard to the wood shed, chastisement, to get forgiveness that excuses from chastisement is another matter.

But as Christ told Peter,

6 So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:

A believer in Christ is clean every whit because of His bath, He has been cleansed completely, washed by the blood of the Lamb. But nevertheless the feet may need washing by the Lord Jesus. Basically He is clean. He has a clean new nature begotten of God. But the believer also still has an old nature & sins on occasion.

Look, now is the day of salvation. Why not repent of your dead works & depend on the loving Savior who offers you eternal life if only you will call upon Him in faith.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

And I will tell you again, you can keep posting your laundry list of scriptures that you use to support your theology.
But the fact is you only give others that are here to get help in better understanding only half the truth, to support an easy believism / mere belief that does not save.

Lord Jesus said over and over again that one who believes in Him will be a hearer and doer of His word, not a hearer only.

John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Keep telling yourself that love for others, obedience to Him and His commands, and your actions in general do not matter as long as you believe He existed. You may know Him, but your actions will show if you love Him.....

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate

popeye · Dec 21, 2014

Hizikyah said:

Show me where you obtained this "truth"
You made the claim from postrib talking points,basically out of thin air?,or did you research this?
Show me the proof.

All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

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