All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

kennethcadwell · Dec 19, 2014

Yes I did, because people are constantly wanting to throw some parts of the bible out and yet keep others to make it fit their false understanding. If somebody wants to take something that wasn't even a command and make it necessary, but then turn around in the same breath and say a command is not necessary. That just makes no sense at all !!!

kennethcadwell · Dec 19, 2014

JesusIsAll said:

The Great White Throne may exist now as it is God's throne, but the Great White Throne Judgment does not happen tell after the seals, tribulation, God's wrath, 1,000 year Christ reign on earth, and the Gog and Magog war led by satan......

AtonedFor · Dec 19, 2014

Jackson123 said:

To my knowledge ... thou has it all lined up correctly ... Bless you!

PlainWord · Dec 20, 2014

For those who still have not figured it out.

Mystery Babylon (MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS) = ISLAM - The world's false religion. It is also a city and that city is MECCA

The 4th BEAST Empire seen by Daniel was/and will be, the Ottoman Empire. This is the same BEAST that John describes in Rev 13 and 17.

The 4th seal is the Great Tribulation. The seals seal the writings on the scroll. Once the seals are removed, more details are found in the scroll, front and back. The Trumpets provide further spiritual detail of the Tribulation of the 4th seal and the Bowls discuss God's wrath which coincides with the 6th seal. Christ returns at the 7th seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Bowl. The 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl describe Armageddon.

Satan's throne is in Turkey, Rev 2:13. It is Ottoman Empire that took over when the last of the Roman Empire fell, the Eastern Roman Empire. The seat of this empire was Constantinople which we know as Istanbul today. Constantinople was named after Roman Emperor Constantine. The Eastern Roman Empire was AKA the Byzantine Empire. It fell in 1453. The Ottoman Empire began in 1299 with it's conquest of Constantinople occurring in 1453.

There was no break in the 7 beasts empires with one ending and the new beginning sequentially without break until 1922 when the Ottoman Empire fell after WWI. It is this MUSLIM empire that was mortally wounded but yet lived (will live again).

PlainWord · Dec 20, 2014

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

MECCA is ISLAM and ISLAM reigns over the (Arab) Kings of the EARTH. Smoke from the destruction of MECCA is seen on the Red Sea by those ships (oil tankers) who have been transporting and becoming rich from the wine of Saudi Arabia which is of course oil.

The Kings of the Earth who committed fornication with her (worshiped ALLAH/Islam) will mourn when they see MECCA burn.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

Muslims mourn this way, not Italians and certainly not New Yorkers. John was taken into the wilderness, not to Jerusalem, not to Rome and not to New York City.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy...

Which religious city is in the wilderness? The BEAST with the 7 heads and 10 horns "ride" ISLAM but they have taken over the original message of Islam and have gone INSANE with their idols.

Jeremiah 50:38

A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up. For it is the land of carved images, And they are insane with their idols.

ISLAM hates Jews and Christians. They make war with the Saints and they are prevailing right up and until the Ancient of Days comes and enters a judgment in favor of the Saints as Daniel sees in Dan 7:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

DiscipleDave · Dec 20, 2014

popeye said:

Please help my ignorance, what is the bride/groom dimension, and whose interpretation is that from.

There is nothing in Scriptures that is contrary to a mid-tribulation, that we will go through some of the tribulation period but not all of it. If then you are in disagreement with that statement, then please reveal the Scriptures that is contrary to that belief? It seems to me your "bride/groom dimension" is a man's interpretation of some sort, what men interpret the Scriptures to mean to fit their own belief of what the Truth is.

I can, through Scriptures, prove to you that we will go through some of the Tribulation period.
I can, through Scriptures, prove to you that we will NOT go through ALL of the Tribulation period.
There is not one Scripture that is contrary to Mid-tribulation. Therefore if you disagree, than show the Scripture that you think does contradict mid-tribulation.

easy to say "The bride/groom dimension is the "game changer" Post or mid falls apart....big time" Now if you will back it up with Scriptures if you can do so, until you show Scriptures that teach mid-trib is false, then it is only your opinion it is false, correct? else you would show Scriptures how it is false.

^I^

kennethcadwell · Dec 20, 2014

PlainWord said:

For those who still have not figured it out.

Mystery Babylon (MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS) = ISLAM - The world's false religion. It is also a city and that city is MECCA

The 4th BEAST Empire seen by Daniel was/and will be, the Ottoman Empire. This is the same BEAST that John describes in Rev 13 and 17.

The 4th seal is the Great Tribulation. The seals seal the writings on the scroll. Once the seals are removed, more details are found in the scroll, front and back. The Trumpets provide further spiritual detail of the Tribulation of the 4th seal and the Bowls discuss God's wrath which coincides with the 6th seal. Christ returns at the 7th seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Bowl. The 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl describe Armageddon.

Satan's throne is in Turkey, Rev 2:13. It is Ottoman Empire that took over when the last of the Roman Empire fell, the Eastern Roman Empire. The seat of this empire was Constantinople which we know as Istanbul today. Constantinople was named after Roman Emperor Constantine. The Eastern Roman Empire was AKA the Byzantine Empire. It fell in 1453. The Ottoman Empire began in 1299 with it's conquest of Constantinople occurring in 1453.

There was no break in the 7 beasts empires with one ending and the new beginning sequentially without break until 1922 when the Ottoman Empire fell after WWI. It is this MUSLIM empire that was mortally wounded but yet lived (will live again).

Sorry but you are a bit of on that because Revelation clearly says that the 7 trumpets are not sounded tell after the 7th seal is broken. The 7 trumpets are encompassed in the 7th seal, they do not happen simultaneous with the seals.
Revelation 8 clearly says the 7th seal was opened, then the angels with the 7 trumpets prepared themselves and then went out.

kennethcadwell · Dec 20, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

Please help my ignorance, what is the bride/groom dimension, and whose interpretation is that from.

There is nothing in Scriptures that is contrary to a mid-tribulation, that we will go through some of the tribulation period but not all of it. If then you are in disagreement with that statement, then please reveal the Scriptures that is contrary to that belief? It seems to me your "bride/groom dimension" is a man's interpretation of some sort, what men interpret the Scriptures to mean to fit their own belief of what the Truth is.

I can, through Scriptures, prove to you that we will go through some of the Tribulation period.
I can, through Scriptures, prove to you that we will NOT go through ALL of the Tribulation period.
There is not one Scripture that is contrary to Mid-tribulation. Therefore if you disagree, than show the Scripture that you think does contradict mid-tribulation.

easy to say "The bride/groom dimension is the "game changer" Post or mid falls apart....big time" Now if you will back it up with Scriptures if you can do so, until you show Scriptures that teach mid-trib is false, then it is only your opinion it is false, correct? else you would show Scriptures how it is false.

^I^

The mid trib theology comes from a group that tried to put God's wrath to start in the middle of the tribulation period.
Problem with that is that the bowl judgments of God's wrath comes at the end of the 3 1/2 great tribulation period.

DiscipleDave · Dec 20, 2014

dcontroversal said:

The Scriptures are True, it says AFTER the Tribulation of THOSE DAYS. Does it say "After the Tribulation Period"? This generation does error by quite often adding things to the Scriptures. When the Scriptures say "After the tribulation of those days" you are ASSUMING that is the entirety of the whole Tribulation period. I say assuming, because there is nothing in the previous verses that would indicate it just got done describing the entire 7 year tribulation period. That is what is being assumed, and incorrectly at that.. Here is the Truth, those who have the Holy Ghost in them will recognize it when they hear it. The 7 seals are opened, then the 7 trumpets are blown. the last Trumpet is when Christ arrives on the Earth. Then the last 7 vials are poured out upon the Earth to wipe out all the wicked who were not taken with Christ. The Church is not present for the pouring out of the vials, they are with Jesus in the New City Jerusalem. The 7 year Tribulation period consists of all 7 trumpets and all seven vials. The 7 trumpets are the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period, the last 7 vials are the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. Christ does not come before the last trumpet is sounded. And He comes before the 7 vials are poured out to destroy all the wicked people on the Earth. This is the Truth, and there are no Scriptures which teaches contrary to that, however mens interpretation of what man thinks Scriptures teach will contradict what I have just said, because the world hates the Truth and will not accept the Truth. What I have said does not contradict any Scriptures, but with this generation will indeed contradict what men today deem as the Truth.

^I^

AtonedFor · Dec 20, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

Gee, I thought the OP has many Scriptures which show this!

DiscipleDave · Dec 20, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

AtonedFor said:

What verse teaches that the wrath of God comes after the Great tribulation of the antichrist? The Great Tribulation IS the wrath of God. The wrath of God will come upon the Earth, and it comes upon the Earth for 7 years. The first part of that 7 year period of the Wrath of God, for 3 1/2 years the antichrist will reign. he reigns for 3 1/2 years during the first part of the Tribulation Period. When the wrath of God does start to come upon the planet (7 year tribulation period starts) this is when the antichrist will be seen on TV saying "Where is your God now?" a great falling away will happen at this time because of him, not only a falling away from the Christian faith, but all religions of the World will be falling away from their God's when the wrath of the Truth God comes upon the Earth. devastation, destruction, disease, famine, wars, no law. When the antichrist says on TV, Radio, Internet "Where is your God now" he will talk about the world putting away their belief in God's and come together as a human people, working together to get past these ACTS OF GOD that has come upon the Earth. The world will also worship him because he will be the cause of the two witnesses that are put to death, which the world, when the wrath of God comes upon the Earth, will not repent of their own sins, they will not realize it is because of their own sins that all this wrath is come upon the Earth, they will have someone to blame, the two witnesses. The Jews of today will believe that this antichrist is the True Son of God, the Messiah that they are still to this day waiting for, someone who will conquer or destroy all their enemies that surround them. Which the antichrist will successfully do. Those who do not believe me now, will when they hear him say exactly as I have said.

^I^

AtonedFor · Dec 20, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

Oh, my God, Dave ... you're goin' to have to get with the program
... I actually thought that everyone knows
... the wrath of God is poured out @ the very end
... upon all of the unbelievers
... after the true believers have been translated outta here!

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

AtonedFor said:

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Our Father, Who art in Heaven; hallowed be they name.

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

The Church cannot go through the Tribulation.

The reason is simple, the vast majority of the Church's generations died long ago.
To put the Church through the Trib would require that the Church be raised from the dead first so it could go through the trib -- which idea is absurd.

DiscipleDave · Dec 20, 2014

notuptome said:

God's wrath comes upon ALL those who are disobedient, those who do wickedness, Those who knowingly and willingly obey satan and commits sins which they know full well are against Christ yet do them anyways.

It is written, you reap what you sow. and also. you shall repay for the wrong witch you have done.

The Hour of temptation is not about the unsaved, but the Saved. When the wrath of God comes upon the Earth, All will be affected, either by self, or the loss of loved ones. There will be a great falling away when people are experiencing the effects of the wrath of God coming upon the Earth, it will be their hour of temptation. God will be punishing them for the sins they have freely committed after they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Call Him "LORD" yet they knowingly and willingly obey satan and do wicked things which they know are sinful and have not repented of them AND CEASED from them. they will not escape the punishment of God, and when His wrath comes upon the disobedient, He will not spare, nor have respect of persons. All will experience it. Those who are true, will accept it as a punishment for their sins and repent of their wicked deeds. Those who will not accept it as punishment will not repent and they will weep and gnash their teeth, and many will believe the antichrist.

This generation falsely believe, that God does not punish people after they are Saved, they are wrong and know not the Truth, if you are not being punished for your wilful sins NOW, then they are being stored for the hour of temptation to test such a person to see if they will fall away from their faith when they are indeed effected and participate in His Wrath, because of their own sinning they refused to cease from. Many, and I say MANY, will say on that day when they are being effected by the wrath of God, will say "Why me, Lord?" Not knowing, it is because God does not lie, and His Word can't be broken, "YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW" If you sow to the flesh, than pray that you reap corruption NOW in the flesh, and get it over with, because it will be far worse for those who are sowing to the flesh, and will reap their corruption of that flesh at the time of His Wrath. Pray that God will punish you NOW for your sins, that you may be spared in the Hour of Temptation.
please email me, if you have specific question, please be patient with me though, I get many emails, and answer them in the order that I receive them, sometimes I get 70 in a day.
^I^

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

AtonedFor said:

Well Red,
as for me I intend to continue praying as the Bible says:

"that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity."

For scripture also says:

A tranquil heart is the life of the flesh;

notuptome · Dec 20, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

The saved never are subject to condemnation. Never as their sins are under the atoning blood of Christ.

The saved are subject to chastisement but not judgment or condemnation. I realize that some study is required to see the difference between what Paul wrote in Romans and what was written Hebrews but it is there and ready to be understood.

Paul again in Corinthians tells us that believers stand before the judgment seat of Christ and our works are tried. The believer is not tried but the works. At the Great White Throne judgment the person is judged and works are of no help only who is written in the book of life which it present to confirm the absence of the name.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kennethcadwell · Dec 20, 2014

notuptome said:

Only repented and forgiven sins are covered by the Lord's blood.
Future sins are not covered tell they are repented and asked forgiveness of.
Paul, Peter, John, and the writer of Hebrews all point to future sins can still be accountable against you unless you repent and ask forgiveness of them. 1 John says you have to confess your future sins to be forgiven, Hebrews 10 says that if you continue in willful sin you will face judgment and the lake of fire.

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

AtonedFor said:

There are no refs to prove your theory.

Do you really think that those who believe different from you have not read the passages? Simply, analytically, synthetically?

YES

NO. The Pre-Trib theory does not deny a gathering at Christ's return to earth. Nor does a gathering of believers on earth to enter the Millennium negate a rapture to a meeting in the air with Christ for transport to Heaven, prior to the Trib.

Matthew 24-25 (Olivet Discourse) does have Christ coming post trib to establish his Kingdom, which is affirmed by pre-tribbers. But Mat 24 has no Church in it & no rapture in it, though the Rapture is a prophesied event. Mat 24 has to do with Israel & the nations -- it is irrelevant to the discussion. It is neither obvious proof, nor any proof whatsoever.

Your refs to the resurrection prove nothing.

There is no reason to identify the last trumpet for the Church with some other trumpet, not called last, but listed last in a series of trumpets. You fail to show that the trumpet call for the Church has anything to do with a trumpet call for the final destructive judgment of earth.

You refer to 1 Thes 4. It should be observed that the end of 1 Thes 4 has the Rapture of the Church, not of "all dead believers" of all ages. And you cannot establish such an idea from scripture.

The end of 1 Thes 4 has the Rapture of the Church, but the start of 1 Thes 5 has the Day of the Lord, theTribulation.

BTW, a sneer at "secret Rapture" does not prove anything. The issue is not how open or secret the Rapture is; the issue is the distinctive programs for Israel, other OT saints, & the Church. The issue is the timing of the Rapture relative to other eschatological events.

There is only one New 2nd Birth. But it happens at many distinct times for many distinct persons. Christ's resurrection did not wait for the Church's resurrection. You cannot prove that first resurrection refers to a single event.

Let's see your proof that "in Christ" refers to men who died before the Church Age. Do you have some scripture to prove that OT saints were baptized into the Body of Christ (the Church - 1 Cor 12:13)?

You don't have any scripture to conflate those events. The Olivet Discourse where Christ returns does not have the passage you quote in it. That is an erroneous conflation?

You bring a straw man to attack now. The elect on earth at Christ's return to take over earth are not all the elect of every age and group. "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Does that mean the elect on earth at the time? If so, then it cannot refer to the elect of all ages & groups. If it means all the elect everywhere, then that is no problem for pre-trib. You can postulate a gathering of Chirst, the Church, Israel, the raised dead, & of the elect angels if you want at the end of the Trib. The fact that a rapture occurred prior to the trib, does not make a comprehensive gathering of the elect impossible. However, assuming that elect children will be born during the Millennium, this is not a comprehensive gathering of all the elect of all ages & times.

Since elect is a term that includes saints of all ages, whether in Church or Israel, the term elect does not prove that the Church is alive on earth at this time. Obviously elect OT saints who died long ago are not alive on earth during the tribulation. So you cannot make elect mean "all elect of every generation" by affirming that the elect are alive during the trib.

Do you have some proof that "last day" refers to a period of time no longer than 24 hours? If you insist that the gospel of John is not painting in broad brush, then you end up with the resurrection of the damned & elect happening at the same time.

As to last day:
7 And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

So the damned are judged in the last day. But the Great White Throne Judgment of the damned doesn't occur until 1000 years after Christ's return to earth. So trying to reduce last day to a 24 hour period is impossible. If last day includes an event 1000 years after Christ's return, it can also include an event at the Rapture about 7 years before.

The Days of Noah illustration says nothing about the Church.

Do you suppose that many Church people believe that it is appropriate to pray for a tranquil life? And do you suppose that they believe that God answers prayer?
Now indeed it is so that many Church people are not expecting danger, because they are utterly out of danger, for they are in heaven. For many centuries believers have been living & dying & going to Heaven. So of course they know they are out of danger. They will not be resurrected so post-tribbers can put them through the tribulation! Christians have been dying for almost 2000 years now, evacuated before the tribulation!

I know of no scripture where Christ comes to rapture the Church as a thief. The Rapture is a blessed hope. What makes you think that coming upon an apostate local church to punish it has something to do with the rapture?

The error is not to expect His return now, at any time. Any theory which makes a man think Christ may not return now or at any time, is an erroneous theory. However else you figure it out, hold to the truth that the judge is at the doors; He may return in the next second.

the The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture. 1 Thes 4 end = Rapture; 1 Thes 5 start = Day of the Lord / trib.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Alice in Wonderland interpretation! (And it is wrong to equate believers with the Church.) 1 Th 4 raptured the believers in the Church. Now you are in 1 Th 5 after 1 Th 4.

And others have the shameful POV that Christ can't come today, because a 7 year period of tribulation must precede it. That is a serious error.

No scripture to prove that one. 2 Th 2 tells us what must precede the Day of the Lord. Compare 1 Thes 5 to come to the conclusion that the Day of the Lord starts after the Beast sits in the rebuilt Temple causing the Great Trib to ensue. This is apparently the middle of Daniel's 70th week, Dan 9.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

This fits the judgments from Seal 6 on, including trumpets & vials of God's wrath in Revelation. The Day of the Lord evudently does not wait to the end of the Tribulation, but its judgments begin with seal 6:

12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. 14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for 12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. 14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?

That final statement is a shame & a disgrace. It does not bother me that Christians disagree on eschatology; we read & try to figure it out the best we can. Insulting Christians for not agreeing with your interpretation is an abomination. The important fact to hold in this debate is that Christ can come at any time, even today. Do not fall into the error of thinking He cannot return until 7 years pass from now.

Atwood · Dec 20, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

You keep on posting that falsehood, but have no proof. It is foreign to scripture. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. It is finished!

Men are accountable for their sins. Christians face chastisement so that they are not condemned with the world. Nothing can separate the Christian from the love of God in Christ Jesus, nothing present or yet to come.

Now let's see any proof of that one. If we confess, He forgives -- that proves nothing about what if we don't confess. But there is a forgiveness which avoids chastisement.

"The Lake of Fire" expression does not occur in Hebrews 10. Heb 10 speaks of chastisement.
Heb 10 assures Christians, "But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Faith (No water, no works) results in the saving of the soul.

Now is the day of salvation.
Repent of any faith in works, faith in the idol of water.
Repent of distorting the gospel, preaching a different gospel, which has an anathema.

The gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.

All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

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