All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[DiscipleDave]

This generation falsely believe, that God does not punish people after they are Saved, they are wrong and know not the Truth, if you are not being punished for your wilful sins NOW, then they are being stored for the hour of temptation to test such a person to see if they will fall away from their faith when they are indeed effected and participate in His Wrath, because of their own sinning they refused to cease from. Many, and I say MANY, will say on that day when they are being effected by the wrath of God, will say "Why me, Lord?" Not knowing, it is because God does not lie, and His Word can't be broken, "YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW" If you sow to the flesh, than pray that you reap corruption NOW in the flesh, and get it over with, because it will be far worse for those who are sowing to the flesh, and will reap their corruption of that flesh at the time of His Wrath. Pray that God will punish you NOW for your sins, that you may be spared in the Hour of Temptation.
please email me, if you have specific question, please be patient with me though, I get many emails, and answer them in the order that I receive them, sometimes I get 70 in a day.
^I^

The saved never are subject to condemnation. Never as their sins are under the atoning blood of Christ.

True, never said otherwise. however they are subject to His punishments, and because of these punishments(chastisements) many will fall away from the faith by their own choosing. No man can cause them to fall from they faith, but they themselves can choose to fall from it, and many fall from the faith because of the chastisements that will come upon all peoples of the world during the wrath of God (7 year tribulation period)

The saved are subject to chastisement but not judgment or condemnation.

Condemnation True, judgement not true. God judges what chastisement will come upon a person, how long, how often, what kind, and many other variables He will judge as to the chastisement that each person will receive because of their willful disobedience to the light.

I realize that some study is required to see the difference between what Paul wrote in Romans and what was written Hebrews but it is there and ready to be understood.

Paul again in Corinthians tells us that believers stand before the judgment seat of Christ and our works are tried. The believer is not tried but the works. At the Great White Throne judgment the person is judged and works are of no help only who is written in the book of life which it present to confirm the absence of the name.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Great White Throne Judgement is not for the Saints (Saved) but is for the devil and all his followers, the demons, and all those souls which chose to continue to live in sin, instead of coming to the light of Jesus and ceasing from them.

^i^

 

[AtonedFor]

I realize that some study is required to see the difference between
what Paul wrote in Romans and what was written Hebrews
but it is there and ready to be understood.

Okay, showeth thyself approved by studying and explaining to us
why Paul warned the Roman Christians ... 3 TIMES in 8 VERSES ...
(paraphrasing) the wages of sin is death.

Now, if he's speaking of physical death, your sacred OSAS is off the hook.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Only repented and forgiven sins are covered by the Lord's blood.
Future sins are not covered tell they are repented and asked forgiveness of.
Paul, Peter, John, and the writer of Hebrews all point to future sins can still be accountable against you unless you repent and ask forgiveness of them. 1 John says you have to confess your future sins to be forgiven, Hebrews 10 says that if you continue in willful sin you will face judgment and the lake of fire.

This statement is True.

When a person accepts Jesus as their Savior and Lord. all their sin that are past are forgiven unto them. and at that point in that persons life, Jesus pays for, by His stripes, the punishments for those sins that were past.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

But after that point, YOU will have to pay for all those sins that you knowingly and willingly commit. And i am not saying that a person can't Truly repent of those sins, because if they Truly repent and cease to do them again, they shall be forgiven. But just because they are forgiven does not mean they escape the Word of God which teaches "You reap what you sow".

A person robs a bank, afterwards he is convicted of it, repents of it, returns the money. But he still goes to jail. Even though he repented of it, and it is forgiven to him, he still has to pay for the consequences of his actions. You do not make void Holy Scriptures because you repent. It is written. He that sows to the flesh of the flesh shall reap corruption. So lets say a man has sex with another man. or even a woman has sex with a man not being married to that man. and afterwards they feel terrible and that it was wrong and against God, and they repent on their hands and knees and in sackcloth, vowing never to do such wickedness again. They are forgiven, because they Truly repented in their hearts for the wickedness. later both are found to have Aids. Even though forgiven does not mean you escape the consequences of sowing to the flesh. Anyone who sows to the flesh (regardless who you are or what you claim with your mouth) will of the flesh reap corruption, if not now in the present, then in the end when the wrath of God comes upon the disobedient, and is called the Hour of Temptation, temptation i say, to fall away from the faith, which many will fall away, when all their sins are adding up, and His chastisements will come, if not now, than in the end.

^i^

 

[notuptome]

True, never said otherwise. however they are subject to His punishments, and because of these punishments(chastisements) many will fall away from the faith by their own choosing. No man can cause them to fall from they faith, but they themselves can choose to fall from it, and many fall from the faith because of the chastisements that will come upon all peoples of the world during the wrath of God (7 year tribulation period)

This is not possible for saints have Christ ever before the Father interceding for them. Jesus is ministering to our salvation all the time. Jesus is washing our feet when ever we get soiled by this world.

Condemnation True, judgement not true. God judges what chastisement will come upon a person, how long, how often, what kind, and many other variables He will judge as to the chastisement that each person will receive because of their willful disobedience to the light.

Disobedient children need correction. They are treated as children and are always loved by the Father.

The Great White Throne Judgement is not for the Saints (Saved) but is for the devil and all his followers, the demons, and all those souls which chose to continue to live in sin, instead of coming to the light of Jesus and ceasing from them.

^i^

Close enough.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Okay, showeth thyself approved by studying and explaining to us
why Paul warned the Roman Christians ... 3 TIMES in 8 VERSES ...
(paraphrasing) the wages of sin is death.

Now, if he's speaking of physical death, your sacred OSAS is off the hook.

You prefer to listen to Ellen why ask me?

Sin as you may or may not know results in spiritual death which leads to eternal death. Separation from God and His love. Dose some sin lead to physical death? Seems as though when we look at Sodom. We can be forgive our sin through the blood of Christ by the grace of God. We must do this before the body of flesh dies for it is appointed once unto man to die after which is the judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[AtonedFor]

Sin as you may or may not know results in spiritual death which leads to eternal death.

So, you agree that Paul was warning the Roman Christians to STOP sinning,
for da result of NOT doing so ... wouldest be eternal death.

 

[DiscipleDave]

True, never said otherwise. however they are subject to His punishments, and because of these punishments(chastisements) many will fall away from the faith by their own choosing. No man can cause them to fall from they faith, but they themselves can choose to fall from it, and many fall from the faith because of the chastisements that will come upon all peoples of the world during the wrath of God (7 year tribulation period)

This is not possible for saints have Christ ever before the Father interceding for them. Jesus is ministering to our salvation all the time. Jesus is washing our feet when ever we get soiled by this world.

We are not talking about salvation issues, which it seems you are. we are talking about the chastisment of God upon those who are already or claim to be SAVED.

Condemnation True, judgement not true. God judges what chastisement will come upon a person, how long, how often, what kind, and many other variables He will judge as to the chastisement that each person will receive because of their willful disobedience to the light.

Disobedient children need correction. They are treated as children and are always loved by the Father.

Have i said otherwise? Disobedient children whether they are SAVED or not SAVED need correction, Punishments come upon the SAVED to do several things, to test them, to punish them, to help them grow, to help them learn, to prepare them in some way. We are talking about punishments or if you prefer a nicer word for it, chastisements that will come upon all those who are disobedient.

The Great White Throne Judgement is not for the Saints (Saved) but is for the devil and all his followers, the demons, and all those souls which chose to continue to live in sin, instead of coming to the light of Jesus and ceasing from them.

^i^

Close enough.

For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

Sorry for my ignorance, you say "Close enough". Close enough to what? i do not understand what you mean.

^i^

 

[Atwood]

OFF TOPIC FORGIVENESS OF ALL SINS

Someone wanted to discuss the timing of the Rapture vs the Tribulation, but others have decided to highjack the thread -- or so it would appear, and go off on a heretical hobby horse to distort God's plan of salvation. We have seen posted a ref apparently objecting to OSAS and also coming out with the false claim that only a Christian's past sins or his confessed sins are forgiven until he repents of more sin.

Sins come plenty enough. So I guess for morbid heretics, every Christian is ever being unforgiven. And woe to him if he overlooks a sin he has committed. I seriously doubt that anyone remembers even half of the sins he has committed, so that to confess them all would occupy a good deal of time. Every idle word, every lustful thought, every failure to love neighbor as self, failure to love the Lord with ALL THE MIGHT. And who is more diligent in going on & on in this heretical vein than religionist heretics who have never been saved & really don't know what it is all about to be a Christian? Do they really imagine that they have no unconfessed sins?

Forgiveness of sins is total to a Christian the moment He believes and becomes a Christian. That man receives a new nature which cannot be lost; it is incorruptible. He can no more stop being a child of God & forgiven, than you can become unborn naturally.

SCRIPTURE:

Col. 1:14

[1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray and make request for you, that ye may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to the might of his glory, unto all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; 13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; 14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

we = all Christians. If a man is a "we" then he has forgiveness.
have = present possession.
we have = universal fact for all who are we (Christians, born again believers).
What do we have? Redemption (bought out from bondage, set free) and forgiveness.

This is a categorical statement: All Christians have forgiveness of our sins.
What sins? Our sins. If the sins are ours, then they are forgiven.

Eph. 1:7 affirms the same truth.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

7 in whom

we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,



Note how we = all Christians. And have is a present tense. All Christians now in the present tense have the forgiveness of our trespasses. There is no exception made for Christians who have no unconfessed sins. There is a type of forgiveness that Christians do need for unconfessed sins, however, a forgiveness which can lead to escape from chastisement.

And note that the sinner who trusts Christ is more than forgiven, he is also justified, declared righteous, forever. (Rom. 3:24). To be forgiven is to have our sins practically forgotten and to be excused from any penalty. We are as if we had never sinned. But justification is not the mere removal of sin & its consequences; it include a positive declaration of righteousness. Courts may declare a man "not guilty." But justification goes further and declares the man not merely innocent, but righteous.

3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, . . . the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

Note how "all them who believe" excludes adding any essential to faith -- no works, no idol of water, no idol of one's self.

We have the forgiveness of our trespasses.
What trespasses, all trespasses which are ours! No exceptions related to confessed.
Who? We = all Christians.
Have = present possession.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Forgiveness of sin is only granted to a person who Truly repents.

A Christian man comes home and beats his wife, afterwards he repents of it, and asks God in prayer to forgive him, the next day he comes home and beats his wife again, and again he repents of it and asks God to forgive him of it. Every night he comes home and beats his wife and afterwards repents to God for his sin. Tell me, how sorry is he, even though he continues to repent of his wicked deed? Now false teachers will teach he is still forgiven because he merely asks for it all the time. some false teachers will say, well that person was never truly Saved, therefore does not apply to them or their lives. False teachers teach that once you are saved, it matters not what you do or don't do, you are Saved, altogether ignoring or making void or interpreting away the hundreds of verses which teach what a person MUST do once they are SAVED. False teachers teach once your name is written in the book of life it can never be removed, all the while Jesus Himself taught that He can blot people out of that book. these false teachers believe this teaching because they are altogether unwillingly to cease from the sins that they so adamantly excuse, saying that even though they commit those sins, they are still forgiven and Heaven bound. there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who claim to be SAVED and will not be found such, even though they think they are. LORD, LORD have we not gone to Church in your name, Have we not claimed to be under your blood, are we not Saved by Grace, and He will say to them, I do not know you, Anyone who continues to live in sin and does not cease from them. The righteous are they that do righteousness. Let the false teachers today teach that a person can do unrighteousness and still be considered righteous because of what Jesus did. they are ignorant and know not the Truth, and the Power of God is not in them, they cause strife and will defend their belief even at the point of offending brothers and sisters in the Lord, which is sin, but hey. all they have to do is continue to offend brothers and sisters in the Lord, as long as they continue to repent of the same sins over and over and over again, they are forgiven, even though if they were truly sorry for committing a particular sin, they would cease from doing that sin ever again. they are lost people. claiming to be on the narrow and difficult path that leads to life all the while they are on the wide and easy path. How easy would it be for a person to accept Jesus and use Him to excuse all their sinning that they do and still go to Heaven. They do not know the Truth, nor do they know the Scriptures, they are blind but think they see. Woe to those who teach things that are contrary to Scriptures.
God told me one time. If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures than what you believe is wrong. These false teachers even though there are some verses that seem to indicate they might be wrong, refuse to hearken to them, refuse to change what they believe, because it would be to hard for them to do so, the price would be too much, they would rather believe they are Heaven bound and have to do nothing at all, than to believe the Truth. Prideful they are, lost, and blind, never coming to the Truth.

^i^

 

[ChristIsGod]

What verse teaches that the wrath of God comes after the Great tribulation of the antichrist? The Great Tribulation IS the wrath of God. The wrath of God will come upon the Earth, and it comes upon the Earth for 7 years. The first part of that 7 year period of the Wrath of God, for 3 1/2 years the antichrist will reign. he reigns for 3 1/2 years during the first part of the Tribulation Period. When the wrath of God does start to come upon the planet (7 year tribulation period starts) this is when the antichrist will be seen on TV saying "Where is your God now?" a great falling away will happen at this time because of him, not only a falling away from the Christian faith, but all religions of the World will be falling away from their God's when the wrath of the Truth God comes upon the Earth. devastation, destruction, disease, famine, wars, no law. When the antichrist says on TV, Radio, Internet "Where is your God now" he will talk about the world putting away their belief in God's and come together as a human people, working together to get past these ACTS OF GOD that has come upon the Earth. The world will also worship him because he will be the cause of the two witnesses that are put to death, which the world, when the wrath of God comes upon the Earth, will not repent of their own sins, they will not realize it is because of their own sins that all this wrath is come upon the Earth, they will have someone to blame, the two witnesses. The Jews of today will believe that this antichrist is the True Son of God, the Messiah that they are still to this day waiting for, someone who will conquer or destroy all their enemies that surround them. Which the antichrist will successfully do. Those who do not believe me now, will when they hear him say exactly as I have said.

Brother Dave, I'm not sure where you got this part from, "The first part of that 7 year period of the Wrath of God, for 3 1/2 years the antichrist will reign. he reigns for 3 1/2 years during the first part of the Tribulation Period."

If the antiChrist reigns for the first 1/2 of this '7 yr tribulation period', where will the antiChrist be during the second half or next 3 1/2 yrs until Christ comes dumps him bodily into the lake of fire?

If someone already asked you this, please forgive me but I haven't read this thread but just did a search on your posts because I liked what I read in one elsewhere.

About the wrath -- could I ask you to consider God's Word on that topic about "the wrath" here, on this linked post?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58527-when-does-rapture-occur-59.html#post1815413


Just getting on here for this evening and I suppose I have a lot to read since earlier this afternoon.

Thank you in advance for understanding!!

 

[kennethcadwell]

No it is not foreign to scripture Atwood, read 1 John clearly for it says that if you do sin again.
Meaning these are future sins, you have to confess them ( ask forgiveness of ) in order to be forgiven.
Then Paul in Romans and 1 Corinthians talks about how future sins can still be accounted against a believer if they don't repent and ask forgiveness of them. Hebrews does the same, you if deliberately sin after receiving the truth you will face judgment and the lake of fire.

You keep on posting that falsehood, but have no proof. It is foreign to scripture. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. It is finished!



Men are accountable for their sins. Christians face chastisement so that they are not condemned with the world. Nothing can separate the Christian from the love of God in Christ Jesus, nothing present or yet to come.



Now let's see any proof of that one. If we confess, He forgives -- that proves nothing about what if we don't confess. But there is a forgiveness which avoids chastisement.



"The Lake of Fire" expression does not occur in Hebrews 10. Heb 10 speaks of chastisement.
Heb 10 assures Christians, "But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Faith (No water, no works) results in the saving of the soul.

Now is the day of salvation.
Repent of any faith in works, faith in the idol of water.
Repent of distorting the gospel, preaching a different gospel, which has an anathema.

The gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Atwood]

The Sure Nail In the Eschatological System

The Sure Nail to Establish in your eschatological system is that
CHRIST MAY RETURN AT ANY TIME FOR THE CHURCH; EVEN IN THE NEXT MOMENT!

That is called the imminence of Christ's return.

:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold:

the judge stands before the doors.

To commit yourself to the expectation of Christ's any time return should be a starting point. Then don't go condemning brothers or ranting at their supposed grievous errors for not figuring out the rest as you do. Your figger-it-out won't change a thing as to the truth. Thou shalt not shoot cannon balls at canary birds.

Having established the imminence of the return, there are other possibilities consistent with that.

1) The preterist position that the tribulation is vague & happened 2000 years ago, long ago. Or the position that the trib happened during WWII or whatever in the past.

2) The obtuse-me version of Post Tribism: The tribulation may have just happened & the Church with me went through it, but I was too obtuse to realize it. (Distinguish this from the variety of Post Toasties which says Christ cannot come back today, because there are 7 years of tribulation to come before He can return.)

3) The obtuse-me or vague theory of Mid-tribism: The "Beginning of Travail/Birthpangs" (Mt 24) may have already happened (earthquakes, false-Christs, pestilence, war). Actually only the 2nd half of Dan's 70th week is called the Trib in the Bible. (Pretribbers would call this Mid-tribism, but actually for this POV they are a variety of pre-tribism. I call it vague because the kind of earthquakes & wars we see seem to me basically the same as throughout history. I see all the events of Mat 24 (which precede the consummation of the age) as definite enough to have sign-value.

3) The Pre-Trib position that the Church is not Israel, the Church is never in any trib passage, nor in Rev 6-18, nor in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24-25, etc.). Thus we don't have to wait even 7 years for the return, as the trib follows the Rapture.

IMHO, the Pre-Trib POV best handles the totality of relevant scripture; I do not advance Pre-Trib as a dogma or a fundamental of the faith, or any basis of breaking fellowship with brothers in the Lord.

But however you figure it, do expect the return of the Lord as your blessed hope even today.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Could anyone tell me where this "7 year" tribulation belief comes from?

I just can't find it anywhere but would like to, if it exists. I only find the 3 1/2 yrs.


TIA & God Bless you!

 

[ChristIsGod]

Brother Atwood, the only way I knew how to figure out who was right regarding the "when" of His Coming and our being gathered or raised up to meet Him in the Air was to sit at my kitchen table back in 1985 and go through the ENTIRE BIBLE with just a Strong's Concordance and find EVERY verse from Old through New Testament that had anything whatsoever to do with His Second Advent and what proceeded it and what came after us being resurrected and write all of it down and it became a book and when I was done, I pretty much fell on my knees, realizing that I had been taught and believed just the opposite of what All of that amount of Old & New Testament Scriptures had to say. Just Scripture - nothing from men - just what His Word said about those days before, during the resurrection and what happens afterwards - nothing more.

 

[Atwood]

No it is not foreign to scripture Atwood, read 1 John clearly for it says that if you do sin again.

Kenneth, I believe that I have read or listened to the audio of 1 John over 100 times now. What you say is foreign to all scripture, including 1 John, which speaks of God's seed remaining in the Believer. How can what is begotten of God sin? It is a new nature. The Christian retains his old nature though until death; thus he can & does sin.

But until you trust Christ as Savior, and deny the idol of water, I can't expect you to understand.

Meaning these are future sins, you have to confess them ( ask forgiveness of ) in order to be forgiven.

Why do you continue to post the same Cadwell words not in the Bible, as if repeating them proved anything.

How many times have you now been told that yes Christians need to confess sins to avoid chastisement? The text does NOT say in 1 Jn that the Christian is not forgiven if he does not confess. You add that one in. That is called the logical error of denying the antecedent.

Your vague allusions to Romans & 1 Cor & Hebrew proves nothing. They do not say that any Christian believer under any circumstances goes to the Lake of Fire. Kindly stop saying what is not there. Your "if the don't repent and ask forgiveness" claim is bogus. For $64,000 quote any verse that says a believer goes to the "Lake of Fire."

Ephesians & Colossians are clear

SCRIPTURE:

Col. 1:14

12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; 13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; 14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

we = all Christians. If a man is a "we" then he has forgiveness.
have = present possession.
we have = universal fact for all who are we (Christians, born again believers).
What do we have? Redemption (bought out from bondage, set free) and forgiveness.

This is a categorical statement: All Christians have forgiveness of our sins.
What sins? Our sins. If the sins are ours, then they are forgiven.

Eph. 1:7 affirms the same truth.

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

7 in whom

we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

Note how we = all Christians. And
have is a present tense.
All Christians now in the present tense have the forgiveness of our trespasses. There is
no exception made for Christians who have no unconfessed sins. There is a type of forgiveness that Christians do need for unconfessed sins, however, a forgiveness which can lead to escape from chastisement.

And note that the sinner who trusts Christ is more than forgiven, he is also justified, declared righteous, forever. (Rom. 3:24). To be forgiven is to have our sins practically forgotten and to be excused from any penalty. We are as if we had never sinned. But justification is not the mere removal of sin & its consequences; it include a positive declaration of righteousness. Courts may declare a man "not guilty." But justification goes further and declares the man not merely innocent, but righteous.

3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, . . . the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

Note how "all them who believe" excludes adding any essential to faith -- no works, no idol of water, no idol of one's self.

We have the forgiveness of our trespasses.
What trespasses? All trespasses which are ours!
No exceptions related to unconfessed.
Who? We = all Christians.
Have = present possession.

 

[Elin]

Having established the imminence of the return, there are other possibilities consistent with that.

But Paul says Jesus will not come until the great apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (2Th 2:1-4), so it's not imminent.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Could anyone tell me where this "7 year" tribulation belief comes from?

I just can't find it anywhere but would like to, if it exists. I only find the 3 1/2 yrs.


TIA & God Bless you!

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."


Here in Daniel it is talking about the peace treaty the anitchrist will make, and the one seven or seven weeks in other versions actually stands for a seven year period of time. He will break this treaty in the middle of it which leaves the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation left.

 

[Atwood]

But Paul says Jesus will not come until the great apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (2Th 2:1-4), so it's not imminent.

The Word of God says it is imminent, as in James 5. It is not a matter of what Paul says or James say, but the Lord says.

No, God (via Paul) does not say what you have claimed for 2 Thes 2 at all. He says that the Day of the Lord will not come until some things happen, like the apostasia. The Day of the Lord is not the Rapture nor the 2nd Coming. A quick concordance check of The Day of the Lord should convince you that the Day of the Lord refers to a time of punitive judgment when the Lord sorts out sinner.

BTW, it is quite possible that the apostasia which must precede the Day of the Lord is a reference to the Rapture. And apostasia is a departure, literal or figurative. It might refer to a departure from the faith or a departure (catching up) from the earth, a rapture ,as it does in the Dormition of Mary (aka Assumption of Mary), an ancient Greek text written after the NT.

 

[Atwood]

Could anyone tell me where this "7 year" tribulation belief comes from? I just can't find it anywhere but would like to, if it exists. I only find the 3 1/2 yrs. TIA & God Bless you!

Actually the Bible does not call the whole of Daniel's 70th week the tribulation; that is popular usage, a bit of a misnomer. In Mat 24 the tribulation refers to the Great Tribulation, which follows the Beginning of Birthpangs / Travail. I guess it is quicker to say & write "tribulation" than to say "Daniel's 70th week." The 7 years is in Daniel 9.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth, I believe that I have read or listened to the audio of 1 John over 100 times now. What you say is foreign to all scripture, including 1 John, which speaks of God's seed remaining in the Believer. How can what is begotten of God sin? It is a new nature. The Christian retains his old nature though until death; thus he can & does sin.

But until you trust Christ as Savior, and deny the idol of water, I can't expect you to understand.



Why do you continue to post the same Cadwell words not in the Bible, as if repeating them proved anything.

How many times have you now been told that yes Christians need to confess sins to avoid chastisement? The text does NOT say in 1 Jn that the Christian is not forgiven if he does not confess. You add that one in. That is called the logical error of denying the antecedent.

Your vague allusions to Romans & 1 Cor & Hebrew proves nothing. They do not say that any Christian believer under any circumstances goes to the Lake of Fire. Kindly stop saying what is not there. Your "if the don't repent and ask forgiveness" claim is bogus. For $64,000 quote any verse that says a believer goes to the "Lake of Fire."

Ephesians & Colossians are clear

SCRIPTURE:

Col. 1:14

12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; 13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; 14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

we = all Christians. If a man is a "we" then he has forgiveness.
have = present possession.
we have = universal fact for all who are we (Christians, born again believers).
What do we have? Redemption (bought out from bondage, set free) and forgiveness.

This is a categorical statement: All Christians have forgiveness of our sins.
What sins? Our sins. If the sins are ours, then they are forgiven.

Eph. 1:7 affirms the same truth.

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

7 in whom

we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

Note how we = all Christians. And
have is a present tense.
All Christians now in the present tense have the forgiveness of our trespasses. There is
no exception made for Christians who have no unconfessed sins. There is a type of forgiveness that Christians do need for unconfessed sins, however, a forgiveness which can lead to escape from chastisement.

And note that the sinner who trusts Christ is more than forgiven, he is also justified, declared righteous, forever. (Rom. 3:24). To be forgiven is to have our sins practically forgotten and to be excused from any penalty. We are as if we had never sinned. But justification is not the mere removal of sin & its consequences; it include a positive declaration of righteousness. Courts may declare a man "not guilty." But justification goes further and declares the man not merely innocent, but righteous.

3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, . . . the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

Note how "all them who believe" excludes adding any essential to faith -- no works, no idol of water, no idol of one's self.

We have the forgiveness of our trespasses.
What trespasses? All trespasses which are ours!
No exceptions related to unconfessed.
Who? We = all Christians.
Have = present possession.

2 Peter 1:9
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped ( forgiven ) the defilements of the world ( Sins ) through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them ( Sins ) and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”


Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.





Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.