All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

Mat 25;10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Note; "they that were ready"
1) had GONE OUT TO MEET JESUS
2) had oil and lit lamps
3) had carried extra oil in separate container.

Notice the total lack of postrib stategy in the wise and foolish virgins.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

ELECT said:

The saints die in the trib.
You saying that the hebrews were killed by the Egyptions?
Who are the martyers that "came out of the gt and standing before God "IN HEAVEN. (a type of the hebrews "protected" as you say in exodus)?

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

ELECT said:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Lets all just rip this page from our bibles.
There! Postrib now works

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

GaryA said:

False all the way.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Both of these verses are refering to the wedding/marriage/supper in heaven.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

PlainWord said:

The church is not identified as the one being "raptured" in 1 Thes 4. There is no mention of a bride or gathering of a bride here either. There are two groups of humans being spoken of in this passage. They are:

1) those who sleep in Jesus
2) we who are alive and remain

Group 1: those who sleep in Jesus are dead Christians and/or those of the church who have died and/or dead saved Jews whom Jesus ministered to after He was resurrected. It appears that this group of dead (let's just call them "saved asleep") are being resurrected by Christ (vs. 16). We know from John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24 that Christ resurrects the "saved asleep" on the LAST DAY. Jhn 11:24 speaks of Lazarus who died in the first century BC. With 4 witness passages that give the timing of the resurrection of the dead as the LAST DAY to include those who are known to be saved in Christ we know that that Christ resurrects on "THE LAST DAY." Is the Last Day some day before the Tribulation? We have nothing that states this. Plus we have 1 Cor 15 that tells us that DEATH is the LAST ENEMY Christ defeats. We know there will still be plenty of death during the Great Tribulation (both Christians and Unsaved) so clearly death is not defeated at a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Group 2: We who are alive and remain from what? Some undefined day before the Tribulation when everything is still hunky dory? What are they remaining from??? These appear to be those who are living and are saved and still alive on the Last Day of planet earth. We know the resurrection is on the Last Day and that they go first, then this group follows and joins them in the "air."

Now if we look at 1 Thes 4:14 we are told clearly that it is GOD coming and bringing the first group. This wasn't a typo and God isn't sending with Jesus. GOD IS BRINGING THOSE ASLEEP IN JESUS. GOD is Bringing Group 1.

"...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

That is what the passage says. We have no return of God located before the Tribulation. Peter tells us that the heavens and earth will pass away. John tells us there will be new heavens and new earth. At some point all those in heaven and on earth must be moved from the old to the new, right? Does this happen before the Tribulation or after the Millennium? If after the Millennium, wouldn't it seem logical that 1 Thes 4 deals with this time period? We know the resurrection does.

This is flawed.

Show me the rapture in the midst of tribulation.
Noah? No
Lot? No
Not even the hedrews in slavery,because you need a half million of them slaughtered by satan for any hope of a fitment,not to mention the postrib template has "them" RETURNING TO THE POINT OF DELIVERENCE IMMEDIATELY.

Total miss by a mile.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

PlainWord said:

The church is not identified as the one being "raptured" in 1 Thes 4. There is no mention of a bride or gathering of a bride here either. There are two groups of humans being spoken of in this passage. They are:

1) those who sleep in Jesus
2) we who are alive and remain

Group 1: those who sleep in Jesus are dead Christians and/or those of the church who have died and/or dead saved Jews whom Jesus ministered to after He was resurrected. It appears that this group of dead (let's just call them "saved asleep") are being resurrected by Christ (vs. 16). We know from John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24 that Christ resurrects the "saved asleep" on the LAST DAY. Jhn 11:24 speaks of Lazarus who died in the first century BC. With 4 witness passages that give the timing of the resurrection of the dead as the LAST DAY to include those who are known to be saved in Christ we know that that Christ resurrects on "THE LAST DAY." Is the Last Day some day before the Tribulation? We have nothing that states this. Plus we have 1 Cor 15 that tells us that DEATH is the LAST ENEMY Christ defeats. We know there will still be plenty of death during the Great Tribulation (both Christians and Unsaved) so clearly death is not defeated at a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Group 2: We who are alive and remain from what? Some undefined day before the Tribulation when everything is still hunky dory? What are they remaining from??? These appear to be those who are living and are saved and still alive on the Last Day of planet earth. We know the resurrection is on the Last Day and that they go first, then this group follows and joins them in the "air."

Now if we look at 1 Thes 4:14 we are told clearly that it is GOD coming and bringing the first group. This wasn't a typo and God isn't sending with Jesus. GOD IS BRINGING THOSE ASLEEP IN JESUS. GOD is Bringing Group 1.

"...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

That is what the passage says. We have no return of God located before the Tribulation. Peter tells us that the heavens and earth will pass away. John tells us there will be new heavens and new earth. At some point all those in heaven and on earth must be moved from the old to the new, right? Does this happen before the Tribulation or after the Millennium? If after the Millennium, wouldn't it seem logical that 1 Thes 4 deals with this time period? We know the resurrection does.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

AtonedFor · Jan 4, 2015

PlainWord said:

For years, it has been extremely common knowledge amongst BACs ...
the wrath of God comes AFTER the great tribulation of the antichrist.

kennethcadwell · Jan 4, 2015

Revelation 14 shows the reaping of the earth right before the bowl judgments.

Verse 16 is where the Lord does the reaping were He gathers His sheep.

And then verses 17-20 show that the rest of the world was gathered for the coming wrath of God.

Then chapter 15 is a scene in heaven, and chapter 16 moves into the bowl judgments/wrath of God.

AtonedFor · Jan 4, 2015

For years, it has been extremely common knowledge amongst BACs ...
The wrath of God comes AFTER the great tribulation of the antichrist.
The wrath of God comes AFTER the great persecution of the antichrist.

And this great persecution of the antichrist will be upon us quite soon!

Those BACs who prove to be "cowardly, unbelieving" (Rev 21:8)
will obviously NOT be one who "overcomes" (Rev 21:7)
... and thus
"shall have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev 21:8).

And those BACs who take ...
"the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Rev 13:17)
... "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (Rev 14:9-11).

Note: there are many millions of BACs all over the world,
some of whom are ignorant of this!

Note: there are many millions of BACs all over the world,
some of whom are NOT ignorant of this, but will do it anyway!

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

Originally Posted by PlainWord

Does this happen before the Tribulation or after the Millennium? If after the Millennium, wouldn't it seem logical that 1 Thes 4 deals with this time period? We know the resurrection does.

How many resurrections after the milleneum are there?

Show us the verses.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

AtonedFor said:

1) "they" ,"overcame" by being martyered. (all believers die in the trib for refusing the mark)
2)7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

"overcomers" at this point are not sorted out,but simply are being referred to.
IOW there are no citizens in heaven (new jerusalem) that are not overcomers.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.........12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled..........................8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

popeye said:

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.........12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled..........................8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Hmmmm,is God involved with the tribulation? I thought satan acted alone?

PlainWord · Jan 4, 2015

popeye said:

The word, "LORD" here refers to the Lord God, our Father, not Jesus Christ. When Paul uses the word "Lord" without including "Jesus" or when it is clear from the passage that he is discussing Christ, Paul is usually referring to the Father.

One should never forget, God the Father returns too, not just Jesus. Here is a companion verse from Zech 14:

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Notice the Saints are with the Father??? Here is another companion verse from Dan 7 describing the Return of the Father.

21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Notice here the Father returning and the saints are possessing the kingdom?

9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
So again, 1 Thes 4:14 discusses the Return of God the Father and it is He who brings the Saints, whose asleep in Jesus.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Thus all mention of the word "LORD" in this passage, verses 13-18 discuss the Father.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Just before this we see the 144k in heaven;

and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Note that it is Jesus reaping "ripe" fruit,and that the 144k are "firstfruits"

Now look at vs 17-19;

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

"over ripe"=rotten

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

PlainWord said:

The word, "LORD" here refers to the Lord God, our Father, not Jesus Christ. When Paul uses the word "Lord" without including "Jesus" or when it is clear from the passage that he is discussing Christ, Paul is usually referring to the Father.

One should never forget, God the Father returns too, not just Jesus. Here is a companion verse from Zech 14:

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Notice the Saints are with the Father??? Here is another companion verse from Dan 7 describing the Return of the Father.

21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Notice here the Father returning and the saints are possessing the kingdom?

9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
So again, 1 Thes 4:14 discusses the Return of God the Father and it is He who brings the Saints, whose asleep in Jesus.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Thus all mention of the word "LORD" in this passage, verses 13-18 discuss the Father.

Usually? Really? how convienent.
kuriou
kuriou
G2962
n_ Gen Sg m
Master
Lord
ihsou
iEsou
G2424
n_ Gen Sg m
JESUS

Uh same greek word for "Lord" is used in referring to Jesus and "God" as your template fails to recognise.

kennethcadwell · Jan 4, 2015

popeye said:

and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Just before this we see the 144k in heaven;

and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Note that it is Jesus reaping "ripe" fruit,and that the 144k are "firstfruits"

Now look at vs 17-19;

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

"over ripe"=rotten

So what are you trying to say?
For I said that verse 16 is the Lord Jesus doing the reaping of His people. Then the remaining verses is an angel doing the reaping gathering those who are left together to suffer the wrath of God, that comes in the bowl judgments.

popeye · Jan 4, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Just adding a few verses.I think we basically agree....not sure.

Elin · Jan 4, 2015

AtonedFor said:

Christ appears only twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between.
Just as man is destined to die once and then to face judgment,
so Christ comes once to die and once to judge. (Heb 9:26-27)

There is no appearing of Christ in the air before the time of judgment.

Elin · Jan 4, 2015

notuptome said:

God has only one people, all are the seed of Abraham, all are heirs to the same promises (Gal 3:27-29) and all have the same destiny.

Two peoples with two different destinies is derived from personal interpretations of prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself, those personal interpretations are not correct.

All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

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