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So let me make sure I understand. You think when Christ returns He comes riding on a regular old normal every day cloud in the sky? Let me ask you this, do regular clouds "receive" people and escort them places? These clouds are called "Clouds of Heaven." Clouds of heaven are not regular clouds in the sky. They may not be angels but they are certainly not normal sky clouds either. Perhaps they are some Godly halo or something but normal clouds, they most certainly are not!!
The church is not identified as the one being "raptured" in 1 Thes 4. There is no mention of a bride or gathering of a bride here either. There are two groups of humans being spoken of in this passage. They are:
1) those who sleep in Jesus
2) we who are alive and remain
Group 1: those who sleep in Jesus are dead Christians and/or those of the church who have died and/or dead saved Jews whom Jesus ministered to after He was resurrected. It appears that this group of dead (let's just call them "saved asleep") are being resurrected by Christ (vs. 16). We know from John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24 that Christ resurrects the "saved asleep" on the LAST DAY. Jhn 11:24 speaks of Lazarus who died in the first century BC. With 4 witness passages that give the timing of the resurrection of the dead as the LAST DAY to include those who are known to be saved in Christ we know that that Christ resurrects on "THE LAST DAY." Is the Last Day some day before the Tribulation? We have nothing that states this. Plus we have 1 Cor 15 that tells us that DEATH is the LAST ENEMY Christ defeats. We know there will still be plenty of death during the Great Tribulation (both Christians and Unsaved) so clearly death is not defeated at a Pre-Trib Rapture.
Group 2: We who are alive and remain from what? Some undefined day before the Tribulation when everything is still hunky dory? What are they remaining from??? These appear to be those who are living and are saved and still alive on the Last Day of planet earth. We know the resurrection is on the Last Day and that they go first, then this group follows and joins them in the "air."
Now if we look at 1 Thes 4:14 we are told clearly that it is GOD coming and bringing the first group. This wasn't a typo and God isn't sending with Jesus. GOD IS BRINGING THOSE ASLEEP IN JESUS. GOD is Bringing Group 1.
"...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."
That is what the passage says. We have no return of God located before the Tribulation. Peter tells us that the heavens and earth will pass away. John tells us there will be new heavens and new earth. At some point all those in heaven and on earth must be moved from the old to the new, right? Does this happen before the Tribulation or after the Millennium? If after the Millennium, wouldn't it seem logical that 1 Thes 4 deals with this time period? We know the resurrection does.
1) those who sleep in Jesus
2) we who are alive and remain
Group 1: those who sleep in Jesus are dead Christians and/or those of the church who have died and/or dead saved Jews whom Jesus ministered to after He was resurrected. It appears that this group of dead (let's just call them "saved asleep") are being resurrected by Christ (vs. 16). We know from John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24 that Christ resurrects the "saved asleep" on the LAST DAY. Jhn 11:24 speaks of Lazarus who died in the first century BC. With 4 witness passages that give the timing of the resurrection of the dead as the LAST DAY to include those who are known to be saved in Christ we know that that Christ resurrects on "THE LAST DAY." Is the Last Day some day before the Tribulation? We have nothing that states this. Plus we have 1 Cor 15 that tells us that DEATH is the LAST ENEMY Christ defeats. We know there will still be plenty of death during the Great Tribulation (both Christians and Unsaved) so clearly death is not defeated at a Pre-Trib Rapture.
Group 2: We who are alive and remain from what? Some undefined day before the Tribulation when everything is still hunky dory? What are they remaining from??? These appear to be those who are living and are saved and still alive on the Last Day of planet earth. We know the resurrection is on the Last Day and that they go first, then this group follows and joins them in the "air."
Now if we look at 1 Thes 4:14 we are told clearly that it is GOD coming and bringing the first group. This wasn't a typo and God isn't sending with Jesus. GOD IS BRINGING THOSE ASLEEP IN JESUS. GOD is Bringing Group 1.
"...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."
That is what the passage says. We have no return of God located before the Tribulation. Peter tells us that the heavens and earth will pass away. John tells us there will be new heavens and new earth. At some point all those in heaven and on earth must be moved from the old to the new, right? Does this happen before the Tribulation or after the Millennium? If after the Millennium, wouldn't it seem logical that 1 Thes 4 deals with this time period? We know the resurrection does.
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Define Bride for me? Who is He marrying? Be specific. Does He marry just "the church?" Does He marry any of the OT Saints? Does He marry any who are saved during and/or after the Tribulation? Does He marry any who live during the millennium? Or, does He marry all humans whose names are written in the Book of Life in other words - All in heaven?? Just curious what you believe.
Depends on how you define "comings".
Christ's first advent was very humble being born in a manger in Bethlehem. Israel was looking for a Messiah but not one of such humble beginnings. Israel seeks a Messiah who will come and conquer her enemies and reign forever in Jerusalem on the throne of David. I should think is evident that these two advents are physical and will be witnessed by all who are alive at the time. Both of these are foretold in the OT.
We have Christ in Acts 1 ascending into heaven and the witnesses proclaiming to the believers present that as Christ ascended into the clouds they would also see Him come in the clouds. Does that qualify as a coming or an advent? It appears from the text that Jesus does not come upon the earth but comes and gathers the church up to be with Him. I'm reading that with the 1 Thess perspective in mind for myself.
I believe that Jesus comes two times for Israel and one time for His bride the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Christ's first advent was very humble being born in a manger in Bethlehem. Israel was looking for a Messiah but not one of such humble beginnings. Israel seeks a Messiah who will come and conquer her enemies and reign forever in Jerusalem on the throne of David. I should think is evident that these two advents are physical and will be witnessed by all who are alive at the time. Both of these are foretold in the OT.
We have Christ in Acts 1 ascending into heaven and the witnesses proclaiming to the believers present that as Christ ascended into the clouds they would also see Him come in the clouds. Does that qualify as a coming or an advent? It appears from the text that Jesus does not come upon the earth but comes and gathers the church up to be with Him. I'm reading that with the 1 Thess perspective in mind for myself.
I believe that Jesus comes two times for Israel and one time for His bride the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Like it depends on what "is" is?
Christ comes to earth but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between.
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge
(Heb 9:27-28).
Christ does not come three times.
Three comings are derived from personal interpretations of unfulfilled prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself, those interpretations are incorrect.
Christ comes to earth but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between.
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge
(Heb 9:27-28).
Christ does not come three times.
Three comings are derived from personal interpretations of unfulfilled prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself, those interpretations are incorrect.
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In Acts 1 did Jesus start off standing on the ground or was He already in the sky when the "cloud" received Him?
Why keep 1 Thes 4 in mind when it is clear from verse 14 that this is passage describes the return of God the Father? God the Father returns also. He doesn't stay in the old heaven forever because that old heaven will be dissolved. Here are three passages which specifically name God (the Father) as the one returning.
1 Thes 4: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Zech 14: [SUP] 5 [/SUP]...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Dan 7: [SUP]9 [/SUP]“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame. Its wheels a burning fire;
[SUP] 10 [/SUP]A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him.
Whether it is the return of Christ or of the Father, no passage talks of them coming here and going back to heaven with anyone.
Why keep 1 Thes 4 in mind when it is clear from verse 14 that this is passage describes the return of God the Father? God the Father returns also. He doesn't stay in the old heaven forever because that old heaven will be dissolved. Here are three passages which specifically name God (the Father) as the one returning.
1 Thes 4: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Zech 14: [SUP] 5 [/SUP]...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Dan 7: [SUP]9 [/SUP]“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame. Its wheels a burning fire;
[SUP] 10 [/SUP]A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him.
Whether it is the return of Christ or of the Father, no passage talks of them coming here and going back to heaven with anyone.
Both of the comings or advents to which you refer are to Israel. Neither is for the church. Christ is going to rapture out the church before the tribulation. Gods precious saints are not going to see the wrath of God. We have tribulation in the world but nothing like the wrath of God to come on those who deny Christ.
Any understanding of this subject that blurs the line between the church and Israel is questionable at best.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Any understanding of this subject that blurs the line between the church and Israel is questionable at best.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Sounds like a lot of Saints and Christians are killed during the tribulation to me, as these scriptures show, and how the killing of them is done by the antichrist. God's wrath comes in the vials/bowl judgments at the end of the great tribulation.
Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Sounds like a lot of Saints and Christians are killed during the tribulation to me, as these scriptures show, and how the killing of them is done by the antichrist. God's wrath comes in the vials/bowl judgments at the end of the great tribulation.
Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
K
All of the scriptures I gave above show that believers in Christ will still go through the tribulation and be persecuted and killed by the antichrist/man of sin. Notice how most those scriptures say they come from every nation, kindred, people, and tongues. Meaning they are from all over the world, not just Jews.
Of course you could always use the twist of scripture, and say these are the ones who were left behind.
I like that movie for entertainment, however there is not one scripture in the bible that says only half the believers in Him will be taken. The ones that say one will be taken and one left is referring to the believers being taken, and the unbelievers left.
So once again if you were to say only half the believers will be caught up, that would be man saying God shows partiality. The scriptures say He doesn't.
The other thing you can do is what I was taught for many years before I started actually studying, was that these were unbelievers that became believers after the rapture event. Good theory as I am sure that would happen, but no scripture says or supports that.
If He does rapture us before the 7 year tribulation period ( Final 3 1/2 years Great Tribulation ), then I will be happy to be with Him as my faith is secure in Him. I however see no biblical support for that, as it says we are only protected and kept from God's wrath. Which Revelation clearly says is poured out in the bowl judgments at the end of the GT.
Of course you could always use the twist of scripture, and say these are the ones who were left behind.
I like that movie for entertainment, however there is not one scripture in the bible that says only half the believers in Him will be taken. The ones that say one will be taken and one left is referring to the believers being taken, and the unbelievers left.
So once again if you were to say only half the believers will be caught up, that would be man saying God shows partiality. The scriptures say He doesn't.
The other thing you can do is what I was taught for many years before I started actually studying, was that these were unbelievers that became believers after the rapture event. Good theory as I am sure that would happen, but no scripture says or supports that.
If He does rapture us before the 7 year tribulation period ( Final 3 1/2 years Great Tribulation ), then I will be happy to be with Him as my faith is secure in Him. I however see no biblical support for that, as it says we are only protected and kept from God's wrath. Which Revelation clearly says is poured out in the bowl judgments at the end of the GT.
You will not identify the saints in the tribulation because it upsets your pat little theory. You have known the truth and rejected it for one you like better. No point in beating a dead horse.
Saints saved during the tribulation are a result of the witness of the 144,000.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Saints saved during the tribulation are a result of the witness of the 144,000.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
I did identify them in post #411 by giving scripture, and then in post #413 that I gave the different scenarios that people have used throughout the ages. Did you read that post, if so you would not have made a remark like that back.
The saints in Revelation 13:7 says they were killed by the antichrist. That means they were still part of tribulation and killed in the tribulation.
The 144,000 were sealed at the same time as the great multitude that nobody could number. The 4 angels went out and to place the seal of God on the 144,000 and then it goes into the great multitude that came out of the great tribulation. This means they were still in the great tribulation period. Not to mention the Christians who were already being persecuted and killed in first half of the tribulation period.
10000% conjecture and speculation with 0% Biblical support. The term "Tribulation Saint" does not exist in the Bible nor does the concept of a Tribulation Saint v a regular saint. Paul teaches a falling away, you teach a massive revival. Which of you is correct? My money is on Paul.
The Great Tribulation is from Satan. Satan comes to persecute, kill and if possible deceive believers. If you think that the Great Tribulation is of God, then you believe that God slaughters the Great Multitude in heaven.
The Great Tribulation is from Satan. Satan comes to persecute, kill and if possible deceive believers. If you think that the Great Tribulation is of God, then you believe that God slaughters the Great Multitude in heaven.
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P
Several
maybe start a thread on all of them.Good study for any student of the word
here is one to get you started.
Rev 1
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
maybe start a thread on all of them.Good study for any student of the word
here is one to get you started.
Rev 1
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
P
Originally Posted by notuptome
You will not identify the saints in the tribulation because it upsets your pat little theory. You have known the truth and rejected it for one you like better. No point in beating a dead horse.
Saints saved during the tribulation are a result of the witness of the 144,000.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You will not identify the saints in the tribulation because it upsets your pat little theory. You have known the truth and rejected it for one you like better. No point in beating a dead horse.
Saints saved during the tribulation are a result of the witness of the 144,000.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Verse/verses please