Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[dcontroversal]

Is there Scriptural support for this theory?

It also seems to assume a Temple built under a conditional covenant like the Mosaic Covenant (hence Israel's obedience required) instead of an unconditional covenant like the Abrahamic or New Covenant.
it also reflects Hannigraafs (founder of Equipdotorg) Replacement Theology's views.

My deal with this whole temple idea..........or I should say a rejection of what is coming.......People are constantly decrying that IT is not gonna happen, prophecy does not predict it etc........and YET I guess the JEWS must be oblivious of this.....why.....

a. They have ALL instruments prepared for sacrifice
b. They have a red heifer bred for sacrifice and prepared to DEDICATE the temple
c. They have a priesthood trained
d. They have the building materials prepared off site
e. They have a hyper religious group fully prepared to do it and institute it
f. They have a spot picked for it and are actively pursuing it
g. They have trained for over two decades or longer to bring this to pass
h. Nationally, they have not accepted the Messiah and will NEED to do this to bring about the coming of their messiah
i. Etc......

From what I understand, it will be more along the lines of the tabernacle and can be assembled within months........

 

[UnderGrace]

My deal with this whole temple idea..........or I should say a rejection of what is coming.......People are constantly decrying that IT is not gonna happen, prophecy does not predict it etc........and YET I guess the JEWS must be oblivious of this.....why.....

a. They have ALL instruments prepared for sacrifice
b. They have a red heifer bred for sacrifice and prepared to DEDICATE the temple
c. They have a priesthood trained
d. They have the building materials prepared off site
e. They have a hyper religious group fully prepared to do it and institute it
f. They have a spot picked for it and are actively pursuing it
g. They have trained for over two decades or longer to bring this to pass
h. Nationally, they have not accepted the Messiah and will NEED to do this to bring about the coming of their messiah
i. Etc......

From what I understand, it will be more along the lines of the tabernacle and can be assembled within months........

Oh its coming alright, as a counterfeit.

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh its coming alright, as a counterfeit.

Fully agree that it will not be acknowledged by the Lord of Heaven for sure.........but will happen nonetheless.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You prefer the yoke of a future tribulation or are you waiting for the pretrib rapture nowhere to be found in scripture?

You prefer the pre-mill dogma where the Christian Zionists are colluding with the Zionists to create the ultimate slave state while believers think they will be raptured away?

What will you do when there is no rapture?

You have been listening to far too many anti dispensational scholars to come up with nonsense like this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is that why Jesus told them to flee to the mountains, I suggest a deep study on the atrocities of Nero and his successor.

Jesus makes a very clear statement of the destruction that will befall the unbelieving Jews in Matthew.

You better study up on WW2 and for that matter WW1, Because both of these wars made what occured in 70 AD look like a picnic.

Remember, that the prophet jeremiah, and Jesus himself said this tribulation would be greater than the earth has ever witnessed up to that time, and will never experience again.

I have read the history books and all that happened in AD70. And at no time in AD 70 did anything even comparable to the 2 world wars occure. And at no time was all life on earth threatened as Jesus said would be the case in this time (matt 24) and jesus has not returned yet. As he said he would to put an end to it.

 

[crossnote]

You have been listening to far too many anti dispensational scholars to come up with nonsense like this

Even the anti-dispensational 'scholars' have more sense than that. It's more like the anti -dispensational 'sensationalists'.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay okay...give me a minute I will find it for you!

Ok

Remember, they will see it STANDING in the Holy place (making the inner sanctum unclean) just like antocus epiphanies did a few centuries before christ. Which caused the Maccabean revolt. Only this time, Jesus told them to RUN. For he would PROTECT THEM.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christian Zionists? Ok, I see the source now. No thanks.

Yep.. She is listening to to many anti dispensational people.. and using the same arguments, which are unfounded and untrue. Whats funny is that even she should know those are straw-man arguments..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15,16, emphases mine)

“When you see Jerusalem being ‘surrounded by armies‘, you will know that its desolation is near. 21) Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22) For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23) How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.” Luke 21:20-23 (emphasis mine)


The temple was burned to the ground.

Yup this happened during the siege of Jerusalem, the believers however having heard the words of Jesus did manage to get out.

Jerusalem was surrounded in 68 AD no one could get in or out....there was forces starvation and people were eating each other.

In your schema, the temple has to be rebuilt to so this can happen.

When has prophecy had to be manufactured to be fulfilled in scripture, like we see presently with Mr. Hagee and his ilk.

Ok you have two events here

1. The armies surrounding the city, When they will BURN the city to the ground (fullfilled 70 AD)
2. The man of sin places an Idol in the most holy place making it unclean (see antiochus epiphanies when he slaughtered a pig in the holy place) When the temple is LEFT STANDING, but made UNCLEAN (abomination of desolation) (not yet fulfilled)

They are not the same event, And you can not make them the same event.

Should you try again?

 

[dcontroversal]

You better study up on WW2 and for that matter WW1, Because both of these wars made what occured in 70 AD look like a picnic.

Remember, that the prophet jeremiah, and Jesus himself said this tribulation would be greater than the earth has ever witnessed up to that time, and will never experience again.

I have read the history books and all that happened in AD70. And at no time in AD 70 did anything even comparable to the 2 world wars occure. And at no time was all life on earth threatened as Jesus said would be the case in this time (matt 24) and jesus has not returned yet. As he said he would to put an end to it.

The fact that he indicates that NO FLESH would be left alive in and of itself points to an event way greater that the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D..........and....if it would have been indicative of 70 A.D. JESUS should have returned in the late 60's so as to preserve flesh..........

I do personally believe that Matthew 24 contains dual prophecy concerning both the end of the age and the destruction of the temple in 70 by Titus, but the corresponding chapters of Luke 21 and Mark 13 with the latter half of Matthew 24 clearly point to the end of the age..............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is there another name for Christians who support the re-establishment of Israel, it is not a slur it is a descriptor?

Jews who wanted a homeland are called Zionists, that is not a slur either, just people's adding to the word.

If Israel wants a piece of land and it is negotiated politically that is one thing,however when it is tied is to prophecy then that is a separate issue I think.

Come on sis, this is a strawman argument and you know it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus was talking about Jerusalem........
CITY of JERUSALEM has NOT seen a destruction on the scale of 70 A.D. since.

So even there another great tribulation is a direct contradiction to what Jesus plainly stated.

Jesus also plainly states to them which be in Judea to flee to the mountains.

Um no, He was talking about the world. Why would jesus say he had to come ONLY because all life in jerusalem would cease to exist (which was not even possible in 70 AD)

Matt 24: 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

How will those days be shortened?


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in ad70? No. Because non of it happened in AD 70. It was not possible

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus was clear....if he does not step in when he does....NO flesh will be left alive....

Thats why I do not understand how they can continue with the beliefe of AD70.

NOTHING in ad 70 fits..

Think about it. The last 2 men alive on earth face to face with their swords.. Would not one of them survive? Even then all life would not be threatened, Plus it is not human life. Jesus said no LIFE (meaning all life) we are talking about a massive extinction event, Most likely all out nuclear war was launched and at that time, Jesus puts an end to it. Because i can not think of anything else (at least today) that would threaten all life on earth.

 

[dcontroversal]

Um no, He was talking about the world. Why would jesus say he had to come ONLY because all life in jerusalem would cease to exist (which was not even possible in 70 AD)

Matt 24: 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

How will those days be shortened?


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in ad70? No. Because non of it happened in AD 70. It was not possible

Yep HAH AFTER the SUN, MOON go dark and the stars fall from the heavens........Imagine the shock wave when JESUS rips the fabric of space open to reveal his face from his throne.....the powers of the heavens shaken and the heavens rolled up as a scroll........

THEN (the parable of the wheat and tares) the angels GATHER the wheat (SAVED)

 

[dcontroversal]

Thats why I do not understand how they can continue with the beliefe of AD70.

NOTHING in ad 70 fits..

Think about it. The last 2 men alive on earth face to face with their swords.. Would not one of them survive? Even then all life would not be threatened, Plus it is not human life. Jesus said no LIFE (meaning all life) we are talking about a massive extinction event, Most likely all out nuclear war was launched and at that time, Jesus puts an end to it. Because i can not think of anything else (at least today) that would threaten all life on earth.

Exactly......no wonder PAUL SAID...then we which ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN.........think about that truth for a moment brother

 

[Melach]

brethren. i believe the conversation would bear more fruit if we would shove aside all charicatures of the beliefs of others:

amillennialists are not catholic replacement theology anti-semites
dispensationalists are not judaizer zionists trying to demean the church and dont get all their theology from left behind movies

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Ezekiel's temple. It simply was a conditional prophecy. It was to be built if Israel obeyed God, which they never did.

"In Ezekiel’s vision, the Levites and Aaronic priesthood are seen in their former places of service. According to the New Testament, there has been a change of the priesthood (Heb. 7:12). The Jewish priesthood has been replaced by a different priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5) and a non-Aaronic high priest (Jesus). This modification will not be reversed, for Christ is said to be “a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek” (Ps. 110:4; Heb. 7:17, 21)."

https://www.equip.org/article/making-sense-ezekiels-temple-vision/

So, read the Bible and you will find there Ezekiel's temple will not be built. For sure, Ezekiel was a real prophet, just as Moses was. But, Moses promises from God were also conditional, and when the Israelites forgot to worship and serve God, they were taken into captivity in 722BC and never again were a nation. The tribe of Judah obeyed God more, but they finally succumbed to evil kings and people. God on preserved them for the sake of the lineage of the Messiah. The temple records were all destroyed when it burned to the ground in 70 AD, and that really was the end of the Jewish nation, (and that includes modern day Israel, although those people did need a safe place to live! I'm not for a minute anti-Semitic!)

This whole pre- post- nonsense rest on two wrong deductions.

One is the fake rapture, mentioned no where in Scripture. Do NOT post 1 Thess 4:17 to me, I will go through the Greek, which I am not in the mood to do again. No rapture = no millennium.

Second, the Millennium is a word, which I just discovered, does NOT exist in the Bible. Rev. 20 has χίλια ἔτη, or 1000 years. Now, if anyone knew anything about Biblical Hebrew or Koine Greek, they will know that "thousand" is the biggest word in those languages., The world used, chilia, is the BIGGEST number they knew. And the fact that it really only appears in Rev. 20, indicates it is symbolic. It is BAD hermeneutics to make a doctrine out of anything that doesn't appear all over the Bible, especially when it is obvious that John, a true Hebrew, was using a "thousand years" as a BIG NUMBER, not an literal thousand years.,

There really is no grounds for dispensationalism, or even historic pre-millennialism. Jesus is going to return for the church, but it will be on earth. No one is going to be taken up in the sky and then whisked away to heaven. That idea would have been foreign to Jews and Greeks.

Put down your Scofield Bibles, and all this wrong eschatological nonsense, and read the Bible, the way it is written. NOT to people in the 18th-21st centuries predicting the end falsely, over and over, and no rapture.

That's it, I could write a book, but you can read Biblical scholars explain it, like Kim Riddlebarger or Anthony Hoekema. If you dare!

Lol.. Another strawman (put away your scofield)

How about lets take ALL prophesy tpgether amd make it ALL agree. And not just pic bits and peaces whcih we think support our view. And then symbolis those who do not agree with us so we come out on top

1. Gabriel told daniel. Isreal will repent
2. Several OT prophets were told that Isreal will be scattered all over the earth, Then be returned, and at a particualr time, They will repent
3. Paul himself told us gentiles not to be to PROUD in our thinking that the BLINDNESS currently being experienced by Israel is only temporary. And when the time of the Gentile is complete. They will repent and ALL Israel will be saved.

How about this, Lets all stop following men (scofield, The roman church, whoever it is we are following if we are) , and get the bible out and read for ourselves what the bible says, with faith that WHEN GOD SAYS SOMEtHING WILL HAPPEN. IT WILL!!,

And stop questioning his omniscience!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@Angela53510 BTW, I used to be a member at Riddlebargers Church along with Michael Horton. Definitely not impressed by their Reformed Amillennial views.

And when you bring up Dispensationalists, try not to drag out the strawmen. How about ones like Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Andy Woods, Michael Vlach, john Whitcomb, Sir Robert Anderson, Norman Geisler, Lewis Sperry Chafer and others?
i'm not too impressed either of your understanding of Dispensational theology if you actually hold to the caricatures you made of it in your post above.

When I first came in CC. I was told scofield was a dual covenant theologian (the OT people were saved by law. And would return to law during the tribulation) and because of this, Scofield was a heretic. That was the strawman used by many, When I studied the facts, I found out their information on scofield was incorrect. That he believed all people from adam until the end are saved by grace through faith.

You can tell when people are using these strawmen they have gotten from others when they can not even understand what the person they are attacking even believed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The only place as far as I can that Ezekiel is mentioned in the NT is by Paul in his letter:
(2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.)
(2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

(Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(Ezek 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
(Ezek 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.)

Paul is writing to the Corinthians and basically saying what Ezekiel prophesied had come true.

So the question is, is Ezekiel speaking of the church temple with it's foundation founded on the apostles?

Here's how I see it:

--Romans 9:26 / Hosea 1:10 is about "Israel" (and says, "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, YE are NOT MY PEOPLE; there SHALL THEY be called the children/sons of the living God" [this can ONLY be referring to "Israel"]

--Romans 9:25 / Hosea 2:23b is about "the Gentiles" (where it says, "and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God")


We should keep reading in Ezekiel 39:7 [and 38:18-19,21-23], "So [in this way] will *I* make my holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." [Isa26:16-21 also, esp vv.19-20 (parallel Dan12:1-4 regarding "Israel" coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered (not a physical/bodily resurrection from being previously physically dead, like v.13 is, by contrast), Romans 11:15(25) also, etc]

We should also make sure we read the whole verses (of yours that you referenced), like "dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers" and "save them out of all their dwelling places...and will cleanse them" (etc... context words and their related things)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, no I do not blindly listen to pastors telling me to support Israel as the fulfillment of end time prophecy.

Nor do I. nor does any premil person I know.