Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.
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U
Thank you for your kind words, as usual people have to take things all personal and attack.
Where is your exegesis.
It is nearly impossible to have a dispassionate discourse on this topic here it seem, actually any topic, sad really I used to learn so much when people kindly challenged me.
Okay movin on
Where is your exegesis.
It is nearly impossible to have a dispassionate discourse on this topic here it seem, actually any topic, sad really I used to learn so much when people kindly challenged me.
Okay movin on
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U
Okay, no I do not blindly listen to pastors telling me to support Israel as the fulfillment of end time prophecy.
So those are my true colours,
It is not any personal feelings about a group of people, it is like @Grandpa stated on a another thread we just get labelled as
anti-semites for even daring to question.
Sad really, God forbid one should question the prevailing narrative.
So those are my true colours,
It is not any personal feelings about a group of people, it is like @Grandpa stated on a another thread we just get labelled as
anti-semites for even daring to question.
Sad really, God forbid one should question the prevailing narrative.
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There is the physical temple mentioned by John, which is the one that was destroyed by the Romans then there is the above.
(Rev 11:1 Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me, and I was told, "Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there.)
(Rev 11:2 But do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample on the holy city for forty-two months)
We know from history that what John stated came true as the sack of Jerusalem was 3.5 years. The judgments of the city/temple were poured out from heaven as listed in your post I quoted.
(Rev 11:1 Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me, and I was told, "Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there.)
(Rev 11:2 But do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample on the holy city for forty-two months)
We know from history that what John stated came true as the sack of Jerusalem was 3.5 years. The judgments of the city/temple were poured out from heaven as listed in your post I quoted.
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The only place as far as I can that Ezekiel is mentioned in the NT is by Paul in his letter:
(2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.)
(2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
(Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(Ezek 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
(Ezek 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.)
Paul is writing to the Corinthians and basically saying what Ezekiel prophesied had come true.
So the question is, is Ezekiel speaking of the church temple with it's foundation founded on the apostles?
(2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.)
(2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
(Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(Ezek 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
(Ezek 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.)
Paul is writing to the Corinthians and basically saying what Ezekiel prophesied had come true.
So the question is, is Ezekiel speaking of the church temple with it's foundation founded on the apostles?
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Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black when you launched this zinger earlier...
"You prefer the pre-mill dogma where the Christian Zionists are colluding with the Zionists to create the ultimate slave state while believers think they will be raptured away? "
Or when you try to associate me 'with the ilk of Hagee' (Your words not mine).
"You prefer the pre-mill dogma where the Christian Zionists are colluding with the Zionists to create the ultimate slave state while believers think they will be raptured away? "
Or when you try to associate me 'with the ilk of Hagee' (Your words not mine).
Does reading Hal Lindsey count and Marvin Rosenthal and everyone in between???
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Re: Ezekiel's temple. It simply was a conditional prophecy. It was to be built if Israel obeyed God, which they never did.
"In Ezekiel’s vision, the Levites and Aaronic priesthood are seen in their former places of service. According to the New Testament, there has been a change of the priesthood (Heb. 7:12). The Jewish priesthood has been replaced by a different priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5) and a non-Aaronic high priest (Jesus). This modification will not be reversed, for Christ is said to be “a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek” (Ps. 110:4; Heb. 7:17, 21)."
https://www.equip.org/article/making-sense-ezekiels-temple-vision/
So, read the Bible and you will find there Ezekiel's temple will not be built. For sure, Ezekiel was a real prophet, just as Moses was. But, Moses promises from God were also conditional, and when the Israelites forgot to worship and serve God, they were taken into captivity in 722BC and never again were a nation. The tribe of Judah obeyed God more, but they finally succumbed to evil kings and people. God on preserved them for the sake of the lineage of the Messiah. The temple records were all destroyed when it burned to the ground in 70 AD, and that really was the end of the Jewish nation, (and that includes modern day Israel, although those people did need a safe place to live! I'm not for a minute anti-Semitic!)
This whole pre- post- nonsense rest on two wrong deductions.
One is the fake rapture, mentioned no where in Scripture. Do NOT post 1 Thess 4:17 to me, I will go through the Greek, which I am not in the mood to do again. No rapture = no millennium.
Second, the Millennium is a word, which I just discovered, does NOT exist in the Bible. Rev. 20 has χίλια ἔτη, or 1000 years. Now, if anyone knew anything about Biblical Hebrew or Koine Greek, they will know that "thousand" is the biggest word in those languages., The world used, chilia, is the BIGGEST number they knew. And the fact that it really only appears in Rev. 20, indicates it is symbolic. It is BAD hermeneutics to make a doctrine out of anything that doesn't appear all over the Bible, especially when it is obvious that John, a true Hebrew, was using a "thousand years" as a BIG NUMBER, not an literal thousand years.,
There really is no grounds for dispensationalism, or even historic pre-millennialism. Jesus is going to return for the church, but it will be on earth. No one is going to be taken up in the sky and then whisked away to heaven. That idea would have been foreign to Jews and Greeks.
Put down your Scofield Bibles, and all this wrong eschatological nonsense, and read the Bible, the way it is written. NOT to people in the 18th-21st centuries predicting the end falsely, over and over, and no rapture.
That's it, I could write a book, but you can read Biblical scholars explain it, like Kim Riddlebarger or Anthony Hoekema. If you dare!
"In Ezekiel’s vision, the Levites and Aaronic priesthood are seen in their former places of service. According to the New Testament, there has been a change of the priesthood (Heb. 7:12). The Jewish priesthood has been replaced by a different priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5) and a non-Aaronic high priest (Jesus). This modification will not be reversed, for Christ is said to be “a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek” (Ps. 110:4; Heb. 7:17, 21)."
https://www.equip.org/article/making-sense-ezekiels-temple-vision/
So, read the Bible and you will find there Ezekiel's temple will not be built. For sure, Ezekiel was a real prophet, just as Moses was. But, Moses promises from God were also conditional, and when the Israelites forgot to worship and serve God, they were taken into captivity in 722BC and never again were a nation. The tribe of Judah obeyed God more, but they finally succumbed to evil kings and people. God on preserved them for the sake of the lineage of the Messiah. The temple records were all destroyed when it burned to the ground in 70 AD, and that really was the end of the Jewish nation, (and that includes modern day Israel, although those people did need a safe place to live! I'm not for a minute anti-Semitic!)
This whole pre- post- nonsense rest on two wrong deductions.
One is the fake rapture, mentioned no where in Scripture. Do NOT post 1 Thess 4:17 to me, I will go through the Greek, which I am not in the mood to do again. No rapture = no millennium.
Second, the Millennium is a word, which I just discovered, does NOT exist in the Bible. Rev. 20 has χίλια ἔτη, or 1000 years. Now, if anyone knew anything about Biblical Hebrew or Koine Greek, they will know that "thousand" is the biggest word in those languages., The world used, chilia, is the BIGGEST number they knew. And the fact that it really only appears in Rev. 20, indicates it is symbolic. It is BAD hermeneutics to make a doctrine out of anything that doesn't appear all over the Bible, especially when it is obvious that John, a true Hebrew, was using a "thousand years" as a BIG NUMBER, not an literal thousand years.,
There really is no grounds for dispensationalism, or even historic pre-millennialism. Jesus is going to return for the church, but it will be on earth. No one is going to be taken up in the sky and then whisked away to heaven. That idea would have been foreign to Jews and Greeks.
Put down your Scofield Bibles, and all this wrong eschatological nonsense, and read the Bible, the way it is written. NOT to people in the 18th-21st centuries predicting the end falsely, over and over, and no rapture.
That's it, I could write a book, but you can read Biblical scholars explain it, like Kim Riddlebarger or Anthony Hoekema. If you dare!
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Is there Scriptural support for this theory?
It also seems to assume a Temple built under a conditional covenant like the Mosaic Covenant (hence Israel's obedience required) instead of an unconditional covenant like the Abrahamic or New Covenant.
it also reflects Hannigraafs (founder of Equipdotorg) Replacement Theology's views.
It also seems to assume a Temple built under a conditional covenant like the Mosaic Covenant (hence Israel's obedience required) instead of an unconditional covenant like the Abrahamic or New Covenant.
it also reflects Hannigraafs (founder of Equipdotorg) Replacement Theology's views.
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@Angela53510 BTW, I used to be a member at Riddlebargers Church along with Michael Horton. Definitely not impressed by their Reformed Amillennial views.
And when you bring up Dispensationalists, try not to drag out the strawmen. How about ones like Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Andy Woods, Michael Vlach, john Whitcomb, Sir Robert Anderson, Norman Geisler, Lewis Sperry Chafer and others?
i'm not too impressed either of your understanding of Dispensational theology if you actually hold to the caricatures you made of it in your post above.
And when you bring up Dispensationalists, try not to drag out the strawmen. How about ones like Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Andy Woods, Michael Vlach, john Whitcomb, Sir Robert Anderson, Norman Geisler, Lewis Sperry Chafer and others?
i'm not too impressed either of your understanding of Dispensational theology if you actually hold to the caricatures you made of it in your post above.
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It struck me, what is the motivation of those who are survivalists?
We will survive as the hoards riot and fight to stay alive, we are safe in our bunker.
Where is the gospel about surviving on earth, protecting that which we have against
the needy and despised?
We are secure in heaven and our final destination. But if religion is another plank in
defending ourselves against the evil world, then it makes sense we need to defend ourselves
because that is the reason we have faith.
Jesus's warning was about being prepared for His return, to leave the city and find refuge
but only in a temporary situation. So I look at the fruit, and the fruit of fear and military
preparation is about something very different than Jesus leads us into.
Jesus is always about the how we live, and why we live as we do, not the when and where.
Evil people will rise up, and say terrible things and do terrible things. We are to be light
and shine, despite this insanity and lead others to Jesus and the King of Kings.
We will survive as the hoards riot and fight to stay alive, we are safe in our bunker.
Where is the gospel about surviving on earth, protecting that which we have against
the needy and despised?
We are secure in heaven and our final destination. But if religion is another plank in
defending ourselves against the evil world, then it makes sense we need to defend ourselves
because that is the reason we have faith.
Jesus's warning was about being prepared for His return, to leave the city and find refuge
but only in a temporary situation. So I look at the fruit, and the fruit of fear and military
preparation is about something very different than Jesus leads us into.
Jesus is always about the how we live, and why we live as we do, not the when and where.
Evil people will rise up, and say terrible things and do terrible things. We are to be light
and shine, despite this insanity and lead others to Jesus and the King of Kings.
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P
Jesus does not come back for the church. The second coming is for Israel. Israel will flee to Petra and bozrah which mean the sheep's gate. The prophecy of the Lord will be fulfilled when he said he alone would fight for Israel.
Jesus returns with the saints how then does he come for the church?
I'm not here to discuss pre-trib or anything of the sort to derail this thread. We are complete in Christ we are not appointed to wrath, the time of the gentiles will come to a end. Jesus said he is the beginning and the end. Just wondering how you got to Jesus coming back for the church I don't see it.😮😮
Jesus returns with the saints how then does he come for the church?
I'm not here to discuss pre-trib or anything of the sort to derail this thread. We are complete in Christ we are not appointed to wrath, the time of the gentiles will come to a end. Jesus said he is the beginning and the end. Just wondering how you got to Jesus coming back for the church I don't see it.😮😮
U