Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[crossnote]

So then from the time that our Lord was Crucified Mary/s go to the tomb but think the gardener moved his body,Peter says he's going fishing, Thomas says he wont believe that it's Jesus unless he puts his hands in the nail and spear holes/hole,,they are afraid that they saw a spirit when Jesus appears to them and Cleopas says they had trusted in that Jesus was who was to redeem Israel but that he was killed thee days before. Does any of their comments or actions seem as though the disciples were anticipating Jesus to be raised three days after his death according to Scripture? ,,,,@crossnote

No, not even when Jesus told them plainly so a number of times. Here is an example...

Matthew 16:21 NASBS
[21] From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

But Peter only seemed to relate to his death and misses His resurrection in the next verse...

Matthew 16:22 NASBS
[22] Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

 

[iamsoandso]

No, not even when Jesus told them plainly so a number of times. Here is an example...

Matthew 16:21 NASBS
[21] From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

But Peter only seemed to relate to his death and misses His resurrection in the next verse...

Matthew 16:22 NASBS
[22] Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

Then in Matthew 24:3 when they ask him of the "sign of thy coming" why is it that most think they ask him about his "second coming" when it don't seem as if they had any understanding of it at the Olivet discourse which is before those things? Again they ask him something about the sign of his coming but did not get the second coming yet so then if Jesus knew that his answer reflects that...

 

[iamsoandso]

None of them understood that Jesus must die for their sins and be resurrected for their justification.

Even in early Acts, they preached the death of Christ as a murder indictment against their Jewish listeners, and his resurrection as proof that he is indeed the Jews promised Messiah,

Then they ask him of the sign of the only coming they believed in and thought he was to repel the nations and restore the rule to Israel at that time...

 

[Guojing]

Then they ask him of the sign of the only coming they believed in and thought he was to repel the nations and restore the rule to Israel at that time...

Yep, when I saw Christopher Reeves "Superman" and found out that the directors or/and producers are Jewish, I always felt that is the Jewish idea of what "God sending his son to Earth" really meant to them.

Someone with the super powers to save them from Roman rule, and certainly not the suffering Messiah on the cross.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

None of them understood that Jesus must die for their sins and be resurrected for their justification.

Even in early Acts, they preached the death of Christ as a murder indictment against their Jewish listeners, and his resurrection as proof that he is indeed the Jews promised Messiah,

This is so true. I have not read in the gospels a reference to Jesus being the atoning sacrifice for sins.
In the passover the lamb there is a giving of the life of the lamb for the life of the eldest son in the
household. But this is about a judgement on Egypt and the sparing of Israel, not atoning for all ones
sins.

25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
rom 3

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2

17 that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2

How could a human be the atoning sacrifice for sins, as child or human sacrifice is banned?
Jesus sacrifice was not on the altar of the temple, but on the altar of the cross, a place of punishment
and shame, defile, unholy, cast out, lost, something to be despised.

Jesus described His body as a temple, that would be torn down and rebuilt, but without explaining what
He meant.

Without understanding the atoning sacrifice for sin, equally the resurrection, or the declaration that the
atoning for sin is complete and victorious, would not make sense.

Even today among believers, the idea that Christs death sets us free is very strange. But it works, because
it demonstrates to us God has made a way, has created a resolution in life that cannot be constrained or overcome,
that brings life to sinners, and joy to those who hear and accept His offer of life.

What is very strange is how dangerous this all is. Aarons sons get carried away at the first offering for sin,

1 Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and
they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command.
2 So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.
Lev 10

We are mortals, weak, easily get excited and get things wrong, and the Lords holiness will take these
things away.

9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into
the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean,
Lev 10

Our generation seem to have forgotten that holiness matters, it is part of walking with the Lord.
Little wonder the disciples in the week leading up to passover and in passover could not take it
all in, as it was all happening so fast and was so different from what they expected.

 

[Guojing]

This is so true. I have not read in the gospels a reference to Jesus being the atoning sacrifice for sins.
In the passover the lamb there is a giving of the life of the lamb for the life of the eldest son in the
household. But this is about a judgement on Egypt and the sparing of Israel, not atoning for all ones
sins.

25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
rom 3

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2

17 that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2

How could a human be the atoning sacrifice for sins, as child or human sacrifice is banned?
Jesus sacrifice was not on the altar of the temple, but on the altar of the cross, a place of punishment
and shame, defile, unholy, cast out, lost, something to be despised.

Jesus described His body as a temple, that would be torn down and rebuilt, but without explaining what
He meant.

Without understanding the atoning sacrifice for sin, equally the resurrection, or the declaration that the
atoning for sin is complete and victorious, would not make sense.

Even today among believers, the idea that Christs death sets us free is very strange. But it works, because
it demonstrates to us God has made a way, has created a resolution in life that cannot be constrained or overcome,
that brings life to sinners, and joy to those who hear and accept His offer of life.

What is very strange is how dangerous this all is. Aarons sons get carried away at the first offering for sin,

1 Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and
they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command.
2 So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.
Lev 10

We are mortals, weak, easily get excited and get things wrong, and the Lords holiness will take these
things away.

9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into
the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean,
Lev 10

Our generation seem to have forgotten that holiness matters, it is part of walking with the Lord.
Little wonder the disciples in the week leading up to passover and in passover could not take it
all in, as it was all happening so fast and was so different from what they expected.

Yep, I have realized in my thread on the Great Commission, there are many who actually believe that the original 12 apostles had the same revelation as the apostle Paul, on what the gospel of the death burial and resurrection actually meant.

Their mind is made up in that. I later learned that these people subscribe to a view called "Covenant Theology"

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...mission-irrelevant-for-the-church-now.182210/

 

[crossnote]

Then in Matthew 24:3 when they ask him of the "sign of thy coming" why is it that most think they ask him about his "second coming" when it don't seem as if they had any understanding of it at the Olivet discourse which is before those things? Again they ask him something about the sign of his coming but did not get the second coming yet so then if Jesus knew that his answer reflects that...

They really didn't get the signs of His first coming as well because as Jews many were ingrained with just one coming...and still are.
But in Acts, even after His first coming they looked forward to a literal kingdom...

Acts 1:6-7 NKJV
[6] Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" [7] And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

Notice, Jesus did not deny that expectant hope.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They really didn't get the signs of His first coming as well because as Jews many were ingrained with just one coming...and still are.
But in Acts, even after His first coming they looked forward to a literal kingdom...

Acts 1:6-7 NKJV
[6] Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" [7] And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

Notice, Jesus did not deny that expectant hope.

Amen,

Not only that. His answer showed there would be a time, He said it is not for them to know the TIME or season of (WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN)

 

[iamsoandso]

They really didn't get the signs of His first coming as well because as Jews many were ingrained with just one coming...and still are.
But in Acts, even after His first coming they looked forward to a literal kingdom...

Acts 1:6-7 NKJV
[6] Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" [7] And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

Notice, Jesus did not deny that expectant hope.

With maybe the exception of the woman in Matthew 26:6-13 i agree, she seems to have understood he was going to die and was preparing him for burial. But not any of the others seemed to understand it because they argued with Jesus when he spoke of it to him and the Scriptures state that they didn't understand.

So which is why I cannot see them asking him in Matthew 24:3 about his second coming but instead they seemed baffled as to how the temple could be destroyed as Jesus said and him rule from it and Jerusalem like they saw as one of the signs of his coming(Jewish thinking). This also probably caused Judas Iscariot to question if Jesus was the Messiah or not and then his betrayal.I often point out Acts 1:6-7 and Acts 3:19-21 because I see it as the fist time they spoke of a second coming of Jesus.

Now so we seem to agree that it might be an assumption in general that they are asking about his second coming in Matthew 24:3 but in Scripture it can be proven that they did not understand it until after the Lord ascended to Heaven and they were sent the Comfortor. So then when the deciples ask him this they were thinking the one and only coming they understood but Jesus spoke of both his first and second coming in the Olivet Discourse. lol, I say this because I notice the vast majority of Christians from every camp tend to miss what we are discussing and because they are aware of an second coming they see them asking about the return of our Lord and then cant see that he is answering what they ask(1st coming) and explaining the second coming that they did not understand.

 

[garee]

Then in Matthew 24:3 when they ask him of the "sign of thy coming" why is it that most think they ask him about his "second coming" when it don't seem as if they had any understanding of it at the Olivet discourse which is before those things? Again they ask him something about the sign of his coming but did not get the second coming yet so then if Jesus knew that his answer reflects that...

The Son of man Jesus was not revealed the answer .The answer was not given at all to the "last day" the final resurrection and in the same twinkling of the eye, the lake of fire. .

God does not mumber days or men .We walk by faith the unseen. There are signs, as signs of the times, Just like in the period of Noah marrying and buying and selling goods for the body. Everyone doing evil continually.

Not signs as wonderments .The evil generation seeks after them . The last sign as a wonder (faith source) is the sign of Jonas .It has been fulfilled.

Makes me wonder when he does come will he find the faith that comes from hearing God as it is written or will experience be the new gospel... Perform a work of self edification and use it to confirm someone believes something?

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.Genesis 6:5

He will come as a thief in the night on the last day. We have the prividge being warned before hand to watch as the treasure of Christ in us not of us.

 

[iamsoandso]

The Son of man Jesus was not revealed the answer .The answer was not given at all to the "last day" the final resurrection and in the same twinkling of the eye, the lake of fire. .

God does not mumber days or men .We walk by faith the unseen. There are signs, as signs of the times, Just like in the period of Noah marrying and buying and selling goods for the body. Everyone doing evil continually.,
Not signs as wonderments .The evil generation seeks after them . The last sign as a wonder (faith source) is the sign of Jonas .It has been fulfilled.

Makes me wonder when he does come will he find the faith that comes from hearing God as it is written or will experience be the new gospel... Perform a work of self edification and use it to confirm someone believes something?

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.Genesis 6:5

He will come as a thief in the night on the last day. We have the prividge being warned before hand to watch as the treasure of Christ in us not of us.

well I will bare that in mind garee my friend. We are discussing toldot,generation,Aeon,age ect. at the moment and it seems to me that the disciples were not asking Jesus about the second return at all but seeing they were raised in Judaism they would have seen the six days as six thousand years and the Mill. as the 7th when speaking of age/generation/todot ect. unlike we see the meaning of those words in English. So they would have instead have been asking him when one age,or generation of the heavens and earth would end and the next was to begin (Genesis 2:4,toldot) and not the very end of the world.

 

[garee]

well I will bare that in mind garee my friend. We are discussing toldot,generation,Aeon,age ect. at the moment and it seems to me that the disciples were not asking Jesus about the second return at all but seeing they were raised in Judaism they would have seen the six days as six thousand years and the Mill. as the 7th when speaking of age/generation/todot ect. unlike we see the meaning of those words in English. So they would have instead have been asking him when one age,or generation of the heavens and earth would end and the next was to begin (Genesis 2:4,toldot) and not the very end of the world.

The word thousand signifies a unknown 2 Peter is not a formula 1000=1

One day is with the Lord as a thousand years.Simply saying God does not have restraints. The word as denotes its a parable, a metaphorical calculation .

They you speak of would seem to of been walking by sight in respect to the literal . Six 24 hour days is still six literal days.

The word thousand in the signified language of Revelation as in other places represents a unknown as to whatsoever is in view to include time.

The born again generation of Christ which speaks of the new creatures was fulfilled by the resurrection by the Spirit of holiness in respect to the Son of God not seen.. The genealogy Mathew 1 signaled the generation of Christ had come a end. Jewish genealogy was not longer needed. .It is the beginning of the last days marked by the time of reformation, restoring the government to the time period of judges (no outward representatives used in a parable) .

The substance came, the veil is rent, the graves were opened the 10's of millions of old testament saints entered in the new heavenly city prepared for His wife, the church. She is pictured coming down on the last day. We are in the last days for nearly two thousand literal years moving toward 3.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

 

[iamsoandso]

The word thousand signifies a unknown 2 Peter is not a formula 1000=1

One day is with the Lord as a thousand years.Simply saying God does not have restraints. The word as denotes its a parable, a metaphorical calculation .

They you speak of would seem to of been walking by sight in respect to the literal . Six 24 hour days is still six literal days.

The word thousand in the signified language of Revelation as in other places represents a unknown as to whatsoever is in view to include time.

The born again generation of Christ which speaks of the new creatures was fulfilled by the resurrection by the Spirit of holiness in respect to the Son of God not seen.. The genealogy Mathew 1 signaled the generation of Christ had come a end. Jewish genealogy was not longer needed. .It is the beginning of the last days marked by the time of reformation, restoring the government to the time period of judges (no outward representatives used in a parable) .

The substance came, the veil is rent, the graves were opened the 10's of millions of old testament saints entered in the new heavenly city prepared for His wife, the church. She is pictured coming down on the last day. We are in the last days for nearly two thousand literal years moving toward 3.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

thousand years =an un disclosed amount of time

lol, well after the RCC it was said to be as you say. But to those raised in Judaism like the disciples were there are 120 Jubilees of 50 which is 6000 years(120x50=6000) Genesis 6:3 it's a prophecy Jews believed long before Matthew 24:3 but we have forgotten how to track time like is written in Jubilees...

 

[crossnote]

but we have forgotten how to track time like is written in Jubilees...

I think I had one Jubilee too many lol.
I had my first in ''74 so my next is due in 2024, Yayy, maybe then I'll be outta 'ere lol.

 

[iamsoandso]

I think I had one Jubilee too many lol.
I had my first in ''74 so my next is due in 2024, Yayy, maybe then I'll be outta 'ere lol.

lol, It's like you said in post #947,,, "as Jews many were ingrained..." that is not only about the sign of his coming but the "end of the age" also. So if Jewish thinking was that six days are six thousand years then "and the end of the age" is when one set of an thousand years ended and the next began and Jesus told them not until the things he said were fulfilled. Also Matthew 12:32 "age to come" meaning one ending and another beginning(one of the days ended and another came) ...lol, here's a two thousand year gap anybody need one?

 

[azamzimtoti]

Yes The church is not new. It has always been the children of God. Whether jew or gentile. I think people forget Nineveh was gentile. Yet they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and became part of the church. Separate from the covenant God had with Israel.

The church has ALWAYS been in Christ. Even in OT times

In the OT times the church was administered by Isreal. In NT times the churhc is administered by Jew and Gentile alike.

This makes no sense, if the church had always been in Christ then the promises/covenants apply to the church as Paul states:

(Eph 2:12 that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. )

If the physical land was part of "the covenants of promise" then I'm owed some real estate in the middle east as a son of Abraham.

(Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise. )


(Gal 4:28-29 But you, brothers and sisters, are children of the promise like Isaac. But just as at that time the one born by natural descent persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so it is now. )

(Gal 4:30 But what does the scripture say? "Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son" of the free woman. )

(Gal 4:31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman.)

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen,

Not only that. His answer showed there would be a time, He said it is not for them to know the TIME or season of (WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN)

Just a thought....it was not given unto them to KNOW the time or the season, because it would NOT be in their life time and or in a season that they should be concerned with............

 

[garee]

lol, well after the RCC it was said to be as you say. But to those raised in Judaism like the disciples were there are 120 Jubilees of 50 which is 6000 years(120x50=6000) Genesis 6:3 it's a prophecy Jews believed long before Matthew 24:3 but we have forgotten how to track time like is written in Jubilees...

Its not a formula. One day does not equal a thousand years. That is not a biblical tradition .The word thousand simply represents a unknow in respect to whatever is in view to include a time elements We walk by faith. When he comes is not the issue, he gave no direct sign we can watch like Noah but Christ will still come as a thief in the might on the last day .The same day the new heavens and earth will appear. The metptphor thousand used is in the many other parables

The word thousand represents a unknown in every example I offered of a "thousands years" in a previous post to include the Revelation 20 reference. It's what the signified language of Revelation does .Use the temporal things seen to give us the unseen spiritual understanding hid in parables. .

Without parables Christ spoke not. Why literalize the language if the spiritual understanding makes sense ?I would think we would compare the spiritual not seen to the same..... we walk or are moved by faith

Psalm 90:4King James VersionFor a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual of Psalms to the spiritual understanding of 2 Peter .They both represent a unknown God does give exact numbers or time periods .we walk by faith

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

1 Corinthians 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[iamsoandso]

Its not a formula. One day does not equal a thousand years. That is not a biblical tradition .The word thousand simply represents a unknow in respect to whatever is in view to include a time elements We walk by faith. When he comes is not the issue, he gave no direct sign we can watch like Noah but Christ will still come as a thief in the might on the last day .The same day the new heavens and earth will appear. The metptphor thousand used is in the many other parables

The word thousand represents a unknown in every example I offered of a "thousands years" in a previous post to include the Revelation 20 reference. It's what the signified language of Revelation does .Use the temporal things seen to give us the unseen spiritual understanding hid in parables. .

Without parables Christ spoke not. Why literalize the language if the spiritual understanding makes sense ?I would think we would compare the spiritual not seen to the same..... we walk or are moved by faith

Psalm 90:4King James VersionFor a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual of Psalms to the spiritual understanding of 2 Peter .They both represent a unknown God does give exact numbers or time periods .we walk by faith

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

1 Corinthians 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So then since Mathew 24:3 is the Scripture that I keep speaking about,,,,,,,,do you think those things Jesus gave as an answer were spiritual or will you say that Jerusalem was literally in a siege in ad66-70 and the answer to their question was a literal fulfillment?

 

[Guojing]

Just a thought....it was not given unto them to KNOW the time or the season, because it would NOT be in their life time and or in a season that they should be concerned with............

That is not exactly true. Stephen said he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. If the Jewish Sanhedrin had accepted Stephen preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah instead of stoning Stephen, Jesus would have returned to earth again.

Of course we now know it was rejected, and hence the 2nd coming did not happen in their lifetime.