Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

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garee

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The first resurrection is that of the soul to heaven, as we see in the souls sitting on thrones and of those beheaded, the second is the resurrection of the glorified body rejoining with the soul together in heaven.

Accordingly, the first death of the reprobate ungodly is the suffering of God's wrath in his soul at the moment of physical death. The second death will be his suffering of God's wrath in hell in soul and body after the final judgment (see Revelation 20:6, 20:14)

The two resurrections are distinct from the new birth of the saved.
I would offer. It is appointed for all men to die once as the one penalty for violating the letter of the law "death".. . .born dead in tresspapases and sins without God.

In Adam all die as the generation of corrupted men. . Then comes the execution or carrying out of "death". The book of the law according to the letter of the law will be cast into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn... through corruption, another whole creation Until the last day not one jot or title will be removed.

Those who have been given a new heart that desires to do the will of God not seen and a born again spirit. They will rise and receive their living hope as the goal of their new faith, the incorruptible bodies. the former thing will not be remembered or ever come to mind. .

Its the foundations that some call "dispensations" they seem divide between the different camps.?

When it comes to Christ's labor of love or called a work of faith. There are no dispensations as time periods. as generations of men. where did the idea even come from?

God does not change his motive of operations from one time period to another or from one nation to another. We can see that by looking at the first martyr. Abel, whose brother Cain murdered because he refused to hear and therefore believe God. Out of sight out of mind. Again as if there was no God .A fool. Satan a murderer from the beginning the first of that serial murderer, murders

he purifies the hearts of all by a work of His faith when we do mix faith working with him to both will and perform his good pleasure. In that way he softens our hearts so we can rest from our own works. His yoke is easy without him hard for us. Without him we can do nothing.

Acts 15:8-10 King James Version (KJV)8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, "bare them witness", giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, "purifying" their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 

crossnote

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“And when thy [David's] days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

Notice Jesus establishes the kingdom while David is still buried, before the resurrection.
It doesn't say 'while David is still buried' nor does it mention anything about a resurrection.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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The first resurrection is that of the soul to heaven, as we see in the souls sitting on thrones and of those beheaded, the second is the resurrection of the glorified body rejoining with the soul together in heaven.

Accordingly, the first death of the reprobate ungodly is the suffering of God's wrath in his soul at the moment of physical death. The second death will be his suffering of God's wrath in hell in soul and body after the final judgment (see Revelation 20:6, 20:14)

The two resurrections are distinct from the new birth of the saved.
Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is an interesting verse as it would include the Tribulation period (these are tribulation saints) in with the 1000 years which would make nonsense of the Amillennial scheme of things.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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This completely ignores the Millennial reign of Christ.

So why did you say Christians will face the Rev 20 Judgment? Or did you mistype?
Remember the hermeneutics as to how we can hear is introduded in the opening declaration. Not only inspired from heaven but also signified it, the language or tongue. Prophesying through parables.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

According to the signified understanding of Revelation we are in the Millennial reign of Christ. Thousand is a number metaphor to represent a unknow as to whatever is in view. Its is used 9 times as a thousands years .6 in Revelation 20 according to that parable. It follows the same signified language using the things seen the temporal to give us the unseen things of God faith . the word as denote a parable is in use ..As not is>

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Timeless

A thousand year are not yesterday.

Ecclesiastes 6:6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Timeless

2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Timeless

Not a thousand years is one day

Surely in Book that is identified as signified the idea of making it after the temporal seen would be literalizing the gospel understanding called hidden manna in Chapter 2,
 

Dave-L

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Jan 17, 2020
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It doesn't say 'while David is still buried' nor does it mention anything about a resurrection.
“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

Notice Jesus establishes the kingdom while David is still buried, before the resurrection.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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So, here are some questions for dispensationalists:
[…]
4. Do you understand the state of the believer to be a disembodied, conscious spirit until the resurrection?
5. Do you understand the state of the believer to be resurrected at the time of his "rapture"? If so, then why is his body still in the
grave?
6. Do you understand that being "made alive again", "raised up", given eternal life are the same thing as a resurrection?
Let me start with these ^ (though I've covered most of these [ALL of your] questions in past posts)...

"4. Do you understand the state of the believer to be a disembodied, conscious spirit until the resurrection?"

Response: This ^ is what 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 is referring to by the term "unclothed"--Upon the death of the believer, they are "apart from a body, for a time, until the resurrection [i.e. absent from the body, present with the Lord]" ("clothed upon," by contrast, is "to be immediately clothed upon with our glorified bodies APART from having to DIE first" [this takes place at our "change [at the Rapture event time-slot]" for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" portion of the Body of Christ/Church which is His body"]).



"5. Do you understand the state of the believer to be resurrected at the time of his "rapture"? If so, then why is his body still in the grave?"

Response: This question makes no sense to me.

There is only ONE "Rapture" [event], and it will take place involving the corporate "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at ONE SINGULAR point in time (..."our Rapture" [event] pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints). At that time-slot, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" [be 'resurrected [to stand again on the earth--this doesn't mean I believe their bodies have to be "visible" to all--similar to Jesus' resurrected body]'] and then "we which are ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER-WITH THEM in the clouds, to [the] meeting [noun] [of] the Lord in the air..." [THIS part is the "Rapture" part... not the "resurrection" part]...

so if I understand your question here, yes, their "body" is still in the grave, but because they were a believer while still alive, that back then is when they [ALREADY] possessed eternal life (they aren't still waiting to yet receive it! They are in Heaven STILL enjoying it [just like they did IN LIFE before they physically died], even whilst their physical bodies are rotting in the graves). IOW, Paul, for example is STILL enjoying "eternal life" which he possessed while still alive, though he awaits a glorified body (at the time of our "change" at "our Rapture" event time-slot, yet future to us).



"6. Do you understand that being "made alive again", "raised up", given eternal life are the same thing as a resurrection?"

Response: I disagree that "given eternal life" takes place at the time of "resurrection [to stand again on the earth]"...

so, no, this is why we are not seeing eye to eye on the Matthew 25:46,34 text, which is about "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, who will be "BLESSED" to ENTER the MK age (just like about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages re: still-living persons/saints at that time slot; Daniel 12:12's "BLESSED" being one example of those 8 or so other passages about "STILL-LIVING" persons/saints at the time of His "Return" to the earth Rev19 time-slot: "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [/the 1335 days].")



"HATH [present indicative] eternal life" (not "is still awaiting it")
 

Dave-L

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Jan 17, 2020
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The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10840-millennium
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

Table of Contents

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism.

So it is no wonder it found its way into the first century Church comprised mainly of Jews.

But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed

We believe .............................. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.

“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned

Pelagianism,[2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,

Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of amillennialism (Clement of

Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's

explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive

explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]

Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.
 

Melach

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i dont believe its a pharisee doctrine @Dave-L because its in revelation 20. even if you dont believe in premillennialism its dangerous to say its pharisee doctrine because these premillennialists dont reject Jesus at all so
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Let me start with these ^ (though I've covered most of these [ALL of your] questions in past posts)...

"4. Do you understand the state of the believer to be a disembodied, conscious spirit until the resurrection?"

Response: This ^ is what 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 is referring to by the term "unclothed"--Upon the death of the believer, they are "apart from a body, for a time, until the resurrection [i.e. absent from the body, present with the Lord]" ("clothed upon," by contrast, is "to be immediately clothed upon with our glorified bodies APART from having to DIE first" [this takes place at our "change [at the Rapture event time-slot]" for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" portion of the Body of Christ/Church which is His body"]).



"5. Do you understand the state of the believer to be resurrected at the time of his "rapture"? If so, then why is his body still in the grave?"

Response: This question makes no sense to me.

There is only ONE "Rapture" [event], and it will take place involving the corporate "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at ONE SINGULAR point in time (..."our Rapture" [event] pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints). At that time-slot, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" [be 'resurrected [to stand again on the earth--this doesn't mean I believe their bodies have to be "visible" to all--similar to Jesus' resurrected body]'] and then "we which are ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER-WITH THEM in the clouds, to [the] meeting [noun] [of] the Lord in the air..." [THIS part is the "Rapture" part... not the "resurrection" part]...

so if I understand your question here, yes, their "body" is still in the grave, but because they were a believer while still alive, that back then is when they [ALREADY] possessed eternal life (they aren't still waiting to yet receive it! They are in Heaven STILL enjoying it [just like they did IN LIFE before they physically died], even whilst their physical bodies are rotting in the graves). IOW, Paul, for example is STILL enjoying "eternal life" which he possessed while still alive, though he awaits a glorified body (at the time of our "change" at "our Rapture" event time-slot, yet future to us).



"6. Do you understand that being "made alive again", "raised up", given eternal life are the same thing as a resurrection?"

Response: I disagree that "given eternal life" takes place at the time of "resurrection [to stand again on the earth]"...

so, no, this is why we are not seeing eye to eye on the Matthew 25:46,34 text, which is about "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, who will be "BLESSED" to ENTER the MK age (just like about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages re: still-living persons/saints at that time slot; Daniel 12:12's "BLESSED" being one example of those 8 or so other passages about "STILL-LIVING" persons/saints at the time of His "Return" to the earth Rev19 time-slot: "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [/the 1335 days].")



"HATH [present indicative] eternal life" (not "is still awaiting it")
Just so you are clear on this...I am Reformed, therefore I would hold that the believer has eternal life at the moment of conversion..because he is joined with Jesus, who is his life. But, there is an "already but not yet" aspect of eternal life that consummates in the resurrection at Jesus' return.

Regarding Matthew 25, I believe it is talking about all mankind, past and present, who will all receive their resurrection bodies at Jesus' return. And, yes, I realize that those who are alive at that point will simply be glorified without experiencing death.

Hebrews 11:40 indicates that all believers, including those still living, will receive their reward at the same time.

I would not hold your position regarding Matt 25, simply because it's obvious to me that the righteous and the wicked are punished or rewarded at Jesus' return


Matthew 25:46 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

But, I've already said that.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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5. Do you understand the state of the believer to be resurrected at the time of his "rapture"? If so, then why is his body still in the grave?
"

Response: This question makes no sense to me.
Yes the state is flesh and blood It will not enter the new heavens and earth. It is the new spirit as a born again soul that rises .

On the last day those who remain reigning with Christ in their corrupted bodies of flesh . The flesh will return to the dust. While the new spirit life return to the bosom of the father .On the last day both will rise and received the promised incorruptible body. as the bride of Christ. It will not be male nor female, Jew nor gentile but a new creation. Not made after the rudiments of this corrupted heaven and earth.
 

Dave-L

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Jan 17, 2020
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i dont believe its a pharisee doctrine @Dave-L because its in revelation 20. even if you dont believe in premillennialism its dangerous to say its pharisee doctrine because these premillennialists dont reject Jesus at all so
It is a Pharisee Doctrine Jesus refuted every time he spoke of the Kingdom. Get that straight and the Millennium will go away.
 

Melach

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It is a Pharisee Doctrine Jesus refuted every time he spoke of the Kingdom. Get that straight and the Millennium will go away.
i agree but its in revelation 20 still so i dont blame anyoen for believing it
 

Dave-L

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i agree but its in revelation 20 still so i dont blame anyoen for believing it
It is not a physical kingdom. Rev. 20 is happening now. It is a heavenly view of the New Covenant era. The 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end.
 

garee

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It is not a physical kingdom. Rev. 20 is happening now. It is a heavenly view of the New Covenant era. The 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end.
Rev. 20 is happening now. The last days began when Jesus said; "it is finished" almost two thousand literal years ago.

Its not a literal thousand years. We are not of those of the number .God does not give exact times or number of people. We walk by faith the unseen eternal .Not after the temporal what the eyes see. No sign as a wonder (source of future) is given .He will come on the last day like a thief in the night.

David inspired by the god of this world measured themselves as those of the number that shows mistrust for God. . Rather than walking by faith after the words of or unseen God. Many died because David did not walk by faith after the unseen eternal .

2 Corinthians 10:11-13 King James Version (KJV) Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

The rule of faith the unseen eternal. . . . golden measure

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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garee

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This audio gives a good synopsis of dispensational teaching and how it affects an understanding of biblical prophecy negatively.

The author mentions how charismatic prophetesses of the Irving movement provided part of the doctrine for dispensationalism:

http://www.knowyourbiblerecordings....EU1MUgklBHWE35cTiCmlDFDF0Y1c_I5u61R7_5Soi6ADg
How and where is the foundation of dispensationalism as to different dispensation of time periods found. How are they applied? What the purpose? Is there a foundation for a doctrine called dispensationalism derived from the scriptures?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Nowhere in scripture is the Church called the true Israel. I'm not a true Israelite. I'm in the body of Christ where there is no Jew or Gentile. We have not replaced Israel. They are still God's covenant people and He will fulfill His promises to that people at His 2nd Coming.

Galatians 3:7 7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Romans 9:6-8 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Who are the children of the promise? Note that this is addressed to a GENTILE church, and it says that they are children of the promise

Galatians 4:21-31 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.” 28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.


Philippians 3:3 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—

Ephesians 2:11-22 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Note that Peter uses the same language used of ancient Israel in regards to the Church, and equates non-believers with Gentiles, and additionally he identifies them as those who were not a people:

1 Peter 2:9-13 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. 12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

This is similar language that is used in regards to ancient Israel:

Exodus 19:4-6 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.

I have given you verses to prove the association of Israel with the Church. The Church is the fulfillment of the type of Israel. However, I think it's a little more than that. It was like the scaffolding of the building that was leading to the Church.

By the way, the word "assembly" in the OT, used to refer to the Church, is the same word in the Septuagint (Greek OT translation). It is the ekklesia of the OT, which means "the Church".

Additionally, as I have consistently maintained, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that believers are spiritual Israel. Every believer is joined with Jesus, and shares in his inheritance. He is the true son of Israel.

Galatians 3:7-29 7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. 15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (ESV)

I don't know if many dispensationalists understand what the doctrine of union with Christ teaches, and how that impacts the promises given to Abraham. It doesn't seem like they understand it from the resistance I've encountered.

{see continuation below}
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Nowhere in scripture is the Church called the true Israel. I'm not a true Israelite. I'm in the body of Christ where there is no Jew or Gentile. We have not replaced Israel. They are still God's covenant people and He will fulfill His promises to that people at His 2nd Coming.
{see previous remarks above}

Additionally, note that all the spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith receive the inheritance of the entire world:


Romans 4:1-16 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Two significant facts here:

1. All of Abraham's offspring, Gentile and Jew, inherit the entire world.
2. This is through faith, which unites the believer with Christ, the true Israelite, who is a physical descendant of Abraham.
3. This inheritance is the entire world, not some tiny section of land in the Middle East. God has expanded the original promise.

Now, some might deny that this is a fulfillment of the promise to Israel, because it doesn't discuss the land of Israel specifically, but if God expands the promise to the whole globe, does he still fulfill the promise? Of course he does.

The biggest issue I have with dispensationalism is that it ignores the concept of union with Christ, which extends Israel past physical Israel to include spiritual descendants. This is related to union with Christ, which they seem to underappreciate or utterly ignore. The second biggest issue is claiming the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 will basically continue the curse (albeit in a reduced manner) past the resurrection, which occurs when Jesus returns. According to 1 Corinthians 15, death is defeated once and for all at the resurrection. I do not believe the Bible teaches that evil men will exist after the return of Jesus, but will be utterly destroyed, and the righteous will have been resurrected or changed to a glorious form at that time. In other words, my position is that Jesus ushers in the eternal state (New Heavens/New Earth/New Creation/New Jerusalem) at that time.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,091
1,329
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{see previous remarks above}

Additionally, note that all the spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith receive the inheritance of the entire world:


Romans 4:1-16 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Two significant facts here:

1. All of Abraham's offspring, Gentile and Jew, inherit the entire world.
2. This is through faith, which unites the believer with Christ, the true Israelite, who is a physical descendant of Abraham.
3. This inheritance is the entire world, not some tiny section of land in the Middle East. God has expanded the original promise.

Now, some might deny that this is a fulfillment of the promise to Israel, because it doesn't discuss the land of Israel specifically, but if God expands the promise to the whole globe, does he still fulfill the promise? Of course he does.

The biggest issue I have with dispensationalism is that it ignores the concept of union with Christ, which extends Israel past physical Israel to include spiritual descendants. This is related to union with Christ, which they seem to underappreciate or utterly ignore. The second biggest issue is claiming the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 will basically continue the curse (albeit in a reduced manner) past the resurrection, which occurs when Jesus returns. According to 1 Corinthians 15, death is defeated once and for all at the resurrection. I do not believe the Bible teaches that evil men will exist after the return of Jesus, but will be utterly destroyed, and the righteous will have been resurrected or changed to a glorious form at that time. In other words, my position is that Jesus ushers in the eternal state (New Heavens/New Earth/New Creation/New Jerusalem) at that time.
Yes the rising to receive new bodies of the saints reigning on earth and those dead asleep .It will be neither male nor female Jew no Gentile. It is shown on the same last day that death as to the letter of the law will be cast into the judgment of God. Never to rise and condemn a entire creation.

It appears that some have the idea that dead bodies without spirits will be re- judged according to the Pope Formosa trial.

The mindset of those who glory in the corrupted flesh .That reminds me of the Pope Formosa trial dressing up dead bones . He was accused of violating cannon law and of perjury, among other charges. Found guilty, his election as pope was declared invalid, his acts were quashed, and his fingers of consecration were cut off. Formosa's corpse was then cast into a grave but later thrown into the Tiber river and off to purgatory .

There will be no retrial that fact that mankind lives in a body of death shows it has already ben condemned. No condemnation for new creatures that walk by faith the unseen eternal John 3:18 makes it clear there will be no double jeopardy. No mis-trials. Death as to the letter of the law will be cast .Not dead bones without spirit life. That was brought over from Catholisicim as those that venerate the flesh that lords over the pew sitters

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John3:18

The last day under the Sun.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,498
1,794
113
Where is it? This should be alarming if you are honest and hold to a view that dogmatically asserts that there will be a seven year tribulation and a literal 1000 years. These are major texts regarding the second coming. If you don’t see it here, why use inference when it is clearly not there.

Where is a 7 year tribulation and 1000 years in 1 Corinthians 15?

Where is a 7 year tribulation and 1000 years in the parable of the Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13)?

Where is a 7 year tribulation and 1000 years in 2 Peter 3?

Where is a 7 year tribulation and
1000 years in 1 and 2 Thessalonians?

Where is a 7 year tribulation and
1000 years in in John 5:28-29?