Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

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TheDivineWatermark

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OK, if I understand you correctly, you are saying because there are instances where the word "punish" is used twice indicating the same event, this means that the punishment of Matthew 25 follows the same pattern?
You were saying how there cannot be a [future] Millennium" because the ppl in Matt25:46a [are said to] "go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT"...

and I've shown why this has no adverse impact on my viewpoint (that the MK age FOLLOWS that point in time) for the reasons I've provided...

that BOTH Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 [then 20:11-15] *AND* Isaiah 24:21-22a/22b[23] have/SHOW "a TIME PERIOD" which SEPARATES two distinct "PUNISH" words/events...and AGREES with the chronology/timing-issues elsewhere [and which the "amill-teachings" completely disregards]

If so, then I'd ask what coherent hermeneutic suggests this?
It is a matter of grasping the chronology and not disregarding the passages pertaining to such (which the "amill-teachings" is notorious for doing).


I'd ask you, "what coherent hermeneutic" DISREGARDS "chronology/sequence/timing-issues"? (none should!)
 

UnitedWithChrist

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You were saying how there cannot be a [future] Millennium" because the ppl in Matt25:46a [are said to] "go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT"...

and I've shown why this has no adverse impact on my viewpoint (that the MK age FOLLOWS that point in time) for the reasons I've provided...

that BOTH Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 [then 20:11-15] *AND* Isaiah 24:21-22a/22b[23] have/SHOW "a TIME PERIOD" which SEPARATES two distinct "PUNISH" words/events...and AGREES with the chronology/timing-issues elsewhere [and which the "amill-teachings" completely disregards]



It is a matter of grasping the chronology and not disregarding the passages pertaining to such (which the "amill-teachings" is notorious for doing).


I'd ask you, "what coherent hermeneutic" DISREGARDS "chronology/sequence/timing-issues"? (none should!)

Apparently, I still don't have an adequate background in dispensationalism in order to have a good conversation with you, because I don't see anything in Matthew 25 that makes sense from what I know about dispensationalism.

Like I have said, Christ returns, separates believers from unbelievers, and the believers go into the kingdom (which means receiving eternal life through the resurrection) and unbelievers go to eternal punishment. These two terms are juxtaposed so eternal life is not talking simply about conversion.

Additionally, I see no basis for thinking that the "brethren" are Jews, because they are suffering the things related to persecution FROM the Jews, including imprisonment. Jewish non-believers were at war with Christians (both Jews and Gentiles) and persecuting them. In fact, the believers who receive eternal reward are visiting these brethren in prison.

I'm reading a book by Rob MacKenzie on the differences between dispensationalism and covenant theology now, so maybe I'll be better acquainted with the teaching through this book.

From my perspective, though, the epistles and the gospels point toward an amillennial view.

Maybe I need to get drunk to read and understand dispensationalism, though :) I wonder how much of Scofield's notes were written while enlightened with alcohol? If I'm not mistaken Scofield abandoned his wife and was an alcoholic.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Apparently, I still don't have an adequate background in dispensationalism in order to have a good conversation with you, because I don't see anything in Matthew 25 that makes sense from what I know about dispensationalism.

Like I have said, Christ returns, separates believers from unbelievers, and the believers go into the kingdom (which means receiving eternal life through the resurrection) and unbelievers go to eternal punishment. These two terms are juxtaposed so eternal life is not talking simply about conversion.
No, there is no "resurrection" ['to stand again on the earth' (its definition)] being spoken of in Matthew 25:31-34 (and context).

These are "still-living" persons (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth), JUST LIKE about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages (I've listed before) that speak of "still-living" persons [saints only] who will ENTER the MK age upon His "RETURN" there.

Jesus spoke of this in John 11:25-26 [the verse 26 part], where He said, "[...AND (I AM) The Life:]… And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"... where He was speaking in reference to Martha talking about "in/at the last day" (which does not consist solely of "a singular 24-hr day").

These will ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children [which "children/grandchildren" are not "BORN automatically righteous" by the way], and those "children/offspring" will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "death" in/during the MK age (which will be much more rare, reserved only for the rebellious).

The ones who ENTER it (the "righteous"/"BLESSED" *only*) "WILL NEVER DIE" because Jesus (Who IS "THE LIFE") will be PRESENT there REIGNING (and HE SAID SO! "Believest thou this?" Not everyone believes He is FULLY CAPABLE of SUSTAINING *LIFE* ;) )

Maybe I need to get drunk to read and understand dispensationalism, though […]
It's not really that hard to *not* read the word "resurrection" in Matthew 25 where that word is NOWHERE FOUND. ;)

No need to be "drunk" to NOT *READ INTO* passages things which are not there (though one can be un-sober to read things into it that are not there, LOL)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Like I have said, Christ returns, separates believers from unbelievers, and the believers go into the kingdom (which means receiving eternal life through the resurrection) and unbelievers go to eternal punishment. These two terms are juxtaposed so eternal life is not talking simply about conversion.
What do you think of the following "juxtaposition"?

Matthew 18 (and its parallel, quoted below) -

8 Now if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.



Mark 9 -

43 And if your hand should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life crippled, than having two hands to go away into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life lame, than having the two feet, to be cast into Gehenna.
47And if your eye should cause you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Acts 10 -

40 This One God raised up on the third day, and gave Him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to the witnesses having been chosen beforehand by God, to us who did eat with and drink with Him after His rising out from the dead. 42 And He instructed us to proclaim to the people and to testify fully that He is the One having been appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead.

[the bold and the underlined... at two distinct time-slots... <--Matthew 25 belongs in the former (the "still-living" group at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[UWC] Could it be that, in your great disdain of "dispensationalism," you have failed to read them carefully??

It appears that way to me, at least in some measure. ;)
 

garee

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They as those believers that are reigning with Christ as us will rise together with those who are dead asleep on the last day .The same day death as to the letter of the law is thrown in the fiery judgment .The letter of the law will not rise again and corrupt another whole creation. All in the twinkling of the eye. Like a thief in the night .
 

crossnote

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They as those believers that are reigning with Christ as us will rise together with those who are dead asleep on the last day .The same day death as to the letter of the law is thrown in the fiery judgment .The letter of the law will not rise again and corrupt another whole creation. All in the twinkling of the eye. Like a thief in the night .
You were saying both judgments (Jn 5:24 and Rev 20 apply to believers.
They both apply to believers which is not the rest of mankind.
But if this were so then this is what will happen to believers...

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. (Rev 20:12-13)

This would flatly contradict Jn 5:24...

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (Joh 5:24)

I'd rather believe as Scripture indicates, they are two separate judgments.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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What do you think of the following "juxtaposition"?

Matthew 18 (and its parallel, quoted below) -

8 Now if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.



Mark 9 -

43 And if your hand should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life crippled, than having two hands to go away into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life lame, than having the two feet, to be cast into Gehenna.
47And if your eye should cause you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
Like usual I have no clue what you’re talking about :D
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Like usual I have no clue what you’re talking about :D
Likewise, I have no idea why you said this [in the bold]:

and the believers go into the kingdom (which means receiving eternal life through the resurrection)
when there is no "resurrection" being referred to in Matthew 25. ;)
 

UnitedWithChrist

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No, there is no "resurrection" ['to stand again on the earth' (its definition)] being spoken of in Matthew 25:31-34 (and context).

These are "still-living" persons (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth), JUST LIKE about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages (I've listed before) that speak of "still-living" persons [saints only] who will ENTER the MK age upon His "RETURN" there.

Jesus spoke of this in John 11:25-26 [the verse 26 part], where He said, "[...AND (I AM) The Life:]… And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"... where He was speaking in reference to Martha talking about "in/at the last day" (which does not consist solely of "a singular 24-hr day").

These will ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children [which "children/grandchildren" are not "BORN automatically righteous" by the way], and those "children/offspring" will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "death" in/during the MK age (which will be much more rare, reserved only for the rebellious).

The ones who ENTER it (the "righteous"/"BLESSED" *only*) "WILL NEVER DIE" because Jesus (Who IS "THE LIFE") will be PRESENT there REIGNING (and HE SAID SO! "Believest thou this?" Not everyone believes He is FULLY CAPABLE of SUSTAINING *LIFE* ;) )



It's not really that hard to *not* read the word "resurrection" in Matthew 25 where that word is NOWHERE FOUND. ;)

No need to be "drunk" to NOT *READ INTO* passages things which are not there (though one can be un-sober to read things into it that are not there, LOL)
Resurrection means to be given life. Formerly the person was dead and after this they are alive. So anytime someone is given eternal life they are resurrected or raised in some sense.

When a person is saved they are given eternal life or raised from the dead.

Additionally when the disembodied spirits of the departed return with Jesus, their bodies are raised from the grave, the spirit is joined with the body, and it is glorified.

Living saints are glorified without experiencing death, if they are still alive at Christ’s return.

I suppose you may not relate to how entering into life is directly related to the resurrection due to some dispensationalist teaching but this is pretty straightforward and would be included in a reputable systematic theology like Wayne Grudem’s.

See Ephesians 2:1-10 for an example of spiritual resurrection and Romans 8 for an example of the bodily resurrection/glorification of believers.

What’s my point? Entering into life is the SAME as the resurrection of the righteous. “Raised”, “resurrected”, “regenerated”, “made alive again” is all resurrection language.

And resurrection occurs for believers at the point of salvation when they are joined with Jesus (who is the source of their life) and in the fullest consummation at his return when they are glorified.

So while you may not see the allusions to resurrection they are there.

And by the way I think I am unaware of the vastness of the gulf between the understandings of non Reformed versus Reformed people.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Likewise, I have no idea why you said this [in the bold]:



when there is no "resurrection" being referred to in Matthew 25. ;)
I’m explaining that in the other thread. I’m not sure dispensationalists understand “resurrection language”. Because entering into life is definitely resurrection language.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Likewise, I have no idea why you said this [in the bold]:


(ESV)

when there is no "resurrection" being referred to in Matthew 25. ;)
Matthew 25:46 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Receiving eternal life is the same as the resurrection.

I'm not sure why you would bother to challenge this.

However, I'm not sure dispensationalists understand the resurrection, and the timing of it. Maybe they don't realize that the resurrection, which involves being given a glorified body fit for the new creation, occurs at Jesus' return.
 

garee

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You were saying both judgments (Jn 5:24 and Rev 20 apply to believers.
But if this were so then this is what will happen to believers...

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. (Rev 20:12-13)

This would flatly contradict Jn 5:24...

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (Joh 5:24)

I'd rather believe as Scripture indicates, they are two separate judgments.
Yes as two kinds of judgments . One the sorting out of the lambs and goats which has already been determined shown by those who believe not the gospel( John3:18 . They will not be tried twice. And on the last day the execution, the bringing in the new creation all in the twinkling of the eye .

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned "already", because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God John3:18

Again no second trial. No double jeopardy. .Its as the wage of sin. . appointed for all to die once then come the execution of bring in the new heavens and earth

There are judgments as to whom God has had mercy and grace as names written down from the foundation of the world, as the lambs book of life. and another book of life with the names of all God had intended to give the breath of life pertaining to flesh and blood. Many will disappear or be blotted out from the book of life in respect to everyone. there names will not be found in either. Unlike the believer they will be found in both.

Again an execution of the judgment on the last day. On that day those whose names were written down in both books will rise .And the same day, death in respect to the letter of the law will be tossed in the fiery judgement of God. Never to rise and condemn a whole creation .

Those whose names that will be found in both books will not come into the execution of the judgment. They are not part of those that the sea gave up. The believers have passed through the sea of judgment on dry ground called the good ground. like Moses .

Those in whom God has no mercy on are judged according to what they have done to show they have violated the letter of the law.
Believer will be judged by the work of the father and Son( the law of faith the unseen) . In that way Christ has sat in the judgment seat of Christ in our stead called three days in the heart of the earth.

No condemnation, No retrial. No mistrials
 

UnitedWithChrist

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So, here are some questions for dispensationalists:

1. What does the word "resurrection" mean to you, and how does this relate to the physical body?
2. When does the resurrection of believers occur?
3. When does the resurrection of unbelievers occur?
4. Do you understand the state of the believer to be a disembodied, conscious spirit until the resurrection?
5. Do you understand the state of the believer to be resurrected at the time of his "rapture"? If so, then why is his body still in the
grave?
6. Do you understand that being "made alive again", "raised up", given eternal life are the same thing as a resurrection?
7. Do you understand that all believers are spiritually resurrected, although awaiting physical resurrection, because they have been
raised to spiritual life through the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit?
8. Are dead believers any different than living believers, in terms of their composition, at the return of Jesus? In other words, will all believers be bodily resurrected. receiving their glorified bodies, on this day?


If you don't understand that physical resurrection means to be given eternal life at the consummation, then I don't think it is possible for me to explain Matthew 25 to you. Eternal life is related to eternal punishment in the last verse of Matthew 25, so it is definitely talking about the resurrection as it is talking about final fates.

There is something about the dispensational worldview that causes a barrier in communicating with them, and I think it's related to their understanding of the words being used. We are using words in two different ways, I think.
 

Dave-L

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“And when thy [David's] days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

Notice Jesus establishes the kingdom while David is still buried, before the resurrection.
 

Hazelelponi

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I don't see an Eschatology section, so I'll post this here...(Mods, if there is a more appropriate section, please move the thread there).

Revelation 20:4-5 NASBS
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

For those who hold to an Amillennial position, (usually stated as an indefinite amount of time starting from the cross to Christ's return), who are those in v.4 and are they reigning now with Christ?
Who are those in v.5 (rest of the dead)?
Which of these two is the 'first resurrection'? Both?
The first resurrection is that of the soul to heaven, as we see in the souls sitting on thrones and of those beheaded, the second is the resurrection of the glorified body rejoining with the soul together in heaven.

Accordingly, the first death of the reprobate ungodly is the suffering of God's wrath in his soul at the moment of physical death. The second death will be his suffering of God's wrath in hell in soul and body after the final judgment (see Revelation 20:6, 20:14)

The two resurrections are distinct from the new birth of the saved.
 

Hazelelponi

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Oh, I didn't realize you all already had 83 pages arguing about this.. I'll happily leave now. ..
 

crossnote

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Yes as two kinds of judgments . One the sorting out of the lambs and goats which has already been determined shown by those who believe not the gospel( John3:18 . They will not be tried twice. And on the last day the execution, the bringing in the new creation all in the twinkling of the eye .
This completely ignores the Millennial reign of Christ.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned "already", because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God John3:18

Again no second trial. No double jeopardy. .Its as the wage of sin. . appointed for all to die once then come the execution of bring in the new heavens and earth. ..,....... No condemnation, No retrial. No mistrials
So why did you say Christians will face the Rev 20 Judgment? Or did you mistype?