An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

FreeGrace2 · Mar 19, 2022

Another point to be made here.

The phrase "those who belong to Him" certainly IS "more than 2".

In NO WAY was Paul even remotely suggesting or intimating that "those who belong to Him" will be in separate resurrections.

So, in 1 Cor 15:23, we SEE CLEARLY that there is Christ, who was resurrected FIRST, just as the verse says. Then, when He comes, which is the Second Advent, EVERY believer will be resurrected. So the "each" refers to the single resurrection of Christ first, and then when He comes, ALL believers (surely there will be "more than 2".

So, once again, regarding human beings, ALL saved will be resurrected at a single event called the Second Advent.

RR · Mar 19, 2022

Oblio said:

Okay, I believe the 144,000 is the Bride, but differ in other areas you posted. See my post above.

Cabrillo · Mar 19, 2022

If I myself cross-referenced every word in the NT & OT it seems to me that we would over amplify lingustics and take away from the most important message: Jesus saves!

DavidTree · Mar 19, 2022

Rhomphaeam said:

Adam and Eve attempted to cover their nakedness - BOTH of the flesh and the soul by #1 sowing fig leaves together as a covering
and #2 by hiding from God

This is Bible Discussion forum so there will be debates and some of those debates will be amusing and/or as another Brother on here would often use 'SMH'.

I have no idea where anybody lives but openly invite ALL who are in Christ over for fellowship & prayer & coffee if you find your self in my area. Secondly, it is a open invitation to share the Word in the case of being separated by distance.

Why do I offer: $1,000 Reward for one expository scripture(s) where the LORD, the Apostles or the Prophets state: the Body of Christ/Elect/Saints will be pre-trib raptured BEFORE His Coming and BEFORE the Antichrist.

Because pre-trib rapture never came out of the Mouth of God and does not exist in Scripture.

Therefore, every Believer will only benefit and be sanctified by the Truth = John chapter 17

godlovejoy · Mar 19, 2022

Rhomphaeam said:

I tried to put A picture of my journal entry but it wouldn’t go it was too large! The date was 9/29/06 I was at a church service with my husband on a Friday night healing service The pastor started his preaching and during the introduction and he just suddenly stopped like he was hearing from God and he told us all that he was sensing that some of us might experience the Holy Spirit on us From time to time it might feel Strange but not to fear because God was beginning a work. I thought that was unusual and so he continued preaching and 10 minutes later that’s when I felt like a hand the fingers of a hand touch my forehead and press In just for a couple seconds...I didn’t know what to make of it. At the end of service at that time I was more Pentecostal so we all went up to the alter to have hands laid on us. We were all in front of the pastor and as the pastor came to me my husband was looking at him standing next to me and as the Pastor went to touch my head, I made a loud yell and I dropped to the floor on my back so fast! that had never happened to me before! that was so strange my husband said the pastor didn’t even touch me It was like an unseen force threw me down in a split second! So again I didn’t know what to make of it until the Holy Spirit revealed to me maybe a day or two later as I was reading “Sons of God Awake” by Bill Britton about the sealings of the priest the different areas spiritually that a priest is sealed and one area is on the forehead. It all clicked and I was like God me you just sealed me and I was amazed by that!! In retrospect I believe that this great work that God was doing in me, he didn’t want any man to touch me, a touch not my anointed moment. This is the most beautiful experience I just wanna share it with my Christian brothers and sisters!!

The Triple Sealing
▪ Look at the High Priest as he prepares to enter the Holiest of Holies, into the very presence of God. He has prepared himself very carefully for this occasion, making sure that the essential parts of his dress and supply are all in order. There are several things we could speak about in connection with this, but the thing we are concerned about in this message is the three sets of seals on his robe and head piece.
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▪ God has given us a picture here, in Old Testament types and shadows, of the reality of the three glorious experiences in God which prepare us for entry into His Presence in truth and experience. Other pictures of these three experiences are found in the three annual feasts of Israel, Passover-Pentecost-Tabernacles .. . and also in the three gates or veils in the Tabernacle, which veils must be passed through on the way to the Holiest Place. He has not left us in darkness concerning His purposes in our lives, but His Word is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our pathway. Now, our feet and pathway speak of our walk in the Spirit and our actual experiences in God. So those who have eyes to see can find in His Word the perfect order for their lives, and see clearly the pathway they are to follow in this pilgrim journey, and the land of promise (or experiences in God) through which their feet shall trod. Praise God's great and Wonderful Name!

DavidTree · Mar 19, 2022

RR said:

Although Revelation is a book of symbols, numbers—but not necessarily what they are used to designate (“days,” “times,” “tribes,” etc.)—always have a literal application. Therefore, 144,000 is the predetermined number to comprise the Bride of Christ; that is, it is the actual count of body members to be associated with Jesus in his Kingdom throne. The expression “of all the tribes of the children of Israel” is a spiritual designation or reference to the true Church, “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16 NIV). This latter classification in New Testament usage is not confined or limited to natural Jewry but is open to those exercising the faith of Abraham (Rom. 4:12,13; 9:6–8,24–26)

This tabulation of the spiritual tribes, when compared with the names inscribed on the breastplate jewels of the high priest, based on Numbers 2:3–31, notably omits the tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Dan. The exclusion of these two particular tribes does not escape the attention of the close and discriminating student of the Word of Matt. 4:4). It seems quite apparent that the omission is intentional and meaningful.

What lesson is meant to be conveyed? The deletion signifies that those Christians possessing the characteristics of these two classes in the unfavorable sense will be most in danger of failure, and thus will not be found amidst the elect body of Christ in glory. The implication is that among the called of God, the greater proportion of those who fail to be specially sealed will be such as give loose rein to the Ephraim and Dan injurious character traits. A word of caution is necessary. Though these damaging propensities will have to be dealt with and most aggressively controlled by the selfsame two tribes, these unfavorable qualities are also possessed to a greater or lesser extent by all the tribes. In other words, what the Spirit might imply concerning the two tribes is a warning to all. Watch and pray!

“Ephraim,” an eponym for the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel, can refer to either natural or nominal spiritual Israel. Here in Revelation the term tacitly indicates a large spiritual class. Among other things, Ephraim means multi-fruitful, that is, a large seedbearing progeny later designated “a great multitude” (verse 9). This tribe is referred to as “a cake not turned” or a cake half-baked, representing immaturity (Hos. 7:8). It is also likened to “a silly dove” (Hos. 7:11); that is, a chaste and undefiled, though unwise, body of Christians described by the Lord in the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins (Hos. 13:12,13; Matt. 25:1–13). Although those comprising this company do inherit a spiritual reward, it is of a secondary nature. A primary fault of their own choosing is that they are improperly schooled in the exercise and control of emotional judgment.

The omission of the tribe of Dan from the list of the sealed represents another class of Christians with spiritual hopes who fail to meet the standard requirements of the Very Elect. However, those of the Dan class receive a far more ominous fate than that of Ephraim, for their deeds merit “second” or eternal death as a reward (Rev. 2:11). Jacob’s prophecy (Gen. 49:17) reads:

"Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" [to destruction—see 1 Sam. 4:18]

Sow a thought; reap an act. Sow an act; reap a habit. Sow a habit; reap a character. In Bible symbolism the horse signifies doctrine, and the rider represents the one who follows or is carried by that doctrine to a corresponding destiny. In addition to a serious tampering with and alteration of doctrine, Genesis 49:17 indicates a hypercritical, backbiting, faultfinding disposition with regard to others that leads the possessor to the most disastrous consequences (Luke 17:1,2).

Again, a word of caution is necessary. The exclusion of Dan makes sense only when viewed from the foregoing condemnatory standpoint. Quite to the contrary, in all other tabulations of the tribes throughout Scripture, Dan occupies a position of either acceptance (Gen. 49:16) or esteem, such as an identification with the Kingdom tribes of the future and an association with the entrance gates of the Holy City to come (Ezek. 48:1,32)

I will be bold here for I do not like falsehood that comes from religion and asserts itself above the Word.

You said: " Therefore, 144,000 is the predetermined number to comprise the Bride of Christ; that is, it is the actual count of body members to be associated with Jesus in his Kingdom throne. "

Please verify your statement " 144k is the actual body count" from Scripture.
Revelation chapter 14 does not verify your statement so please find where the LORD said this in the Gospels or the writings of the Apostles.

If you can, then I can rejoice in learning something I was amiss on - otherwise it is falsehood and contrary to the Gospel.

Lifted_by_the_word · Mar 19, 2022

DavidTree said:

Another cool thing is just like how the Levite's were spread out among the tribes of Israel,the 144,000 are spread out among the nations.They are not in modern Israel.

Many symbolic references are also found in scripture when looking into Gods remnant throughout the Bible that relates to the 144,000.
The story of Joseph being given Pharaoh's signet ring,and put in charge of the grain during a famine, and saving his brothers >144k.

Zerubbabel being spoken about in Zechariah 4:9 when talking about The Two Witnesses also points to the remnant of Revelation.That's why he is mentioned there.

Gideon's army is another story with connections to the Two Witnesses and the remnant being connected as one.The two spies(Gideon and Phurah) sent into the enemy camp and overhearing of a dream of a rolling bread going before them and crushing the camp.
The Two spies are apart of the 300 selected by the Lord.

Same thing when crossing over the Jordan into the promise land and two spies are sent to give a witness report of the enemies defenses.They are both from the remnant that made it to that point of their journey.

The 144,000 will be like spies in the enemy camp.

godlovejoy · Mar 19, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

Do you think only Males will be sealed? I was sealed and Im a woman! I’ve also experienced an affliction like the Apostle Paul and I’ve been sealed in the Forehead, breastplate (chest) and Shoulders....over some years God did these works in me....and there’s so much more...mostly over a 20 year period of time lots of things have happened spiritually...I know that I am an Apostle....

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 19, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

But how does that phrase MAKE SENSE of the "but EACH [of more than two] in his OWN ORDER / RANK" ?

That WASN'T what I was saying... AT ALL.

"those who ARE His" is ONE [set] of the "ORDER / RANK"... (not the individual persons involved in this "those").

But "EACH" speaks to: "OF MORE THAN TWO" ("but EACH [OF MORE THAN TWO] in his OWN ORDER / RANK"... which means there is AN ORDER [/RANK]" to it... and THAT is what FOLLOWS in this verse, which next part ["Christ firstfruit" or "firstfruit Christ" (no definite article)] is NOT referring to JESUS ALONE (like v.20 WAS!), but rather CHRIST-AS-HEAD-WITH-HIS-BODY [AS ONE--1Cor12:12 and 2Cor4:14 and Eph5:27['[to] PRESENT'],30-32, etc etc... and numerous other passages in the epistles speaking to same...);

... and "ONLY THEN [epeita - G1899] those who ARE Christ's..." (when Daniel and Job and ALL OT saints will be resurrected; along with those who will have been martyred / killed / beheaded / die in the future 7-yr period ALSO--that is, AT THE END OF / AFTER the "7 yr period" at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka, the OT saints and the TRIB saints will be "RESURRECTED [defined as 'to stand again' (on the earth)]"... they are NOT "SNATCHED / RAPTURED / CAUGHT UP [G726]" TO the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR"... which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"])

[again: the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest... harvested by means of a "tribulum"... connecting with the SECOND of TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23 (recall James 1:18 "a KIND of firstfruit"

), that is, in v.17... where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--THOSE PHRASES are NOT *US* / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"; The FIRST of the TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23 speaks to an EARLIER harvest, one in which it is harvested by means of "TOSSING IT UP INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff"]

godlovejoy · Mar 19, 2022

Absolutely said:

Yes the “Elect” “Chosen” “144,000” these are all the same Group they will be in Heaven by way of the the 1st Resurrection....not called the“Rapture”. They will be in heaven preparing to come back down to earth to set up the kingdom.... and the rest of Gods people will be left on earth in the end of the tribulation waiting for Jesus to come with the saints....We all pass through the tribulation but the Saints are taken up a little before the.End of the tribulation period

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 19, 2022

Everlasting-Grace said:

Actually, the closest model to the great tribulation would be WW1 and WW2. Mostly WW2 where at the end, we were introduced to weapons of mass destruction. And weapons that could cause the extinction of all life on earth

Remember, the words of Jesus,

Matt 24 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

There has been no time in the past where all life on earth has been threatened by events which could take place during a period of great tribulation. So severe will the threat be that Christ will return to put an end to it.

He allows mankind to continue until the last second, When he is forced to come forth. And put an end to it.

Of course there is a reason for this.. But when we symbolize prophecy, When we do nto take prophecy for what it is. We will not see that purpose. And we will miss out on what it is trying to tell us.

Satan wants to decieve the people in the world in that day.. Let’s not help him by twisting Gods word..

Hmmm, Jesus also said at the very beginning, that there will be “wars and rumors of wars”, “nations against nations, kingdom against kingdom”, and yet that is NOT the end. How convenient that you left that part out.

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 19, 2022

godlovejoy said:

Yeah, put on the full armor of God and fight the dark spirits. This world is a battleground, not a playground.

DavidTree · Mar 19, 2022

godlovejoy said:

Where does the Scripture state "but the Saints are taken up a little before the.End of the tribulation period."
Peace

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 19, 2022

peldom10 said:

This cultist belief is nothing but another fantasy to cheat death. My Bible taught me “the wages of sin is DEATH” and “no servant is greater than his Master”. Jesus Himself died in the most painful way and buried for two days, and yet you think you deserve this rapture ticket that will spare you from death?

godlovejoy · Mar 19, 2022

Absolutely said:

Yes but we have to look at The words of Jesus who came to fulfill and give you the understanding. What about the 5 wise virgins, they are not virgins in the flesh but in the spirit God sees them as holy and undefined. And what about the apostle Paul speaking of the Gentiles being grafted in as a Jew. all these are spiritually discerned understandings and that is why the chosen will not only be Jewish and will not only be mail and will not be actual virgins.

Rhomphaeam · Mar 19, 2022

DavidTree said:

The Scripture doesn't say that they attempted to cover their physical nakedness - it says that they did cover their physical nakedness. As to the soul in your post - where was the fear experienced when Adam expressed to God that he was afraid? Where do you feel fear if you become afraid? In your mind or in your body? If you say in your mind and body then consider that physical fear is a sympathetic response to stimuli that are perceived to be a threat - and it is part of the autonomic nervous system. You have no conscious control over it. It is the other branch of the autonomic nervous system called parasympathetic nervous system, that produces the rest state.

Yet the mind itself can produce psychosomatic effects predicated out of learned experience that can trigger the same autonomic response to perceived threats rather than visual, auditory, gustatory, tactile and olfactory stimuli. These perceived threats are in the learned mind and they don't produce a need to hide as Adam did - until the mind yields to them by reinforcement predicated out of anxiety - or until a physical stimuli is present. So was Adam anxious whilst he waited for his daily meeting with God? Or was he only afraid when he heard God calling out to him?

The soul is not born again - yet we imagine that by simply reading the Word of God we will come into an understanding mind. Some are so keen on their discernment - as they call it - that they require others to agree with them - and they do.

As to the coffee and fellowship - if you do not know where people come from then how will people find you so as to benefit from your hospitality? So how can expressing that claim hold any substance on a forum?

RR · Mar 19, 2022

DavidTree said:

Compared to the Great Multitude mentioned in the same chapter "that no man can number", it's easy to understand that the 144,000 is a numbered class. Let me ask, do you accept all the numbers in the book of Revelation as symbolic or just the 144,000?

DavidTree said:

Can you elaborate? What verse are you referring too in Chapter 14?

RR

DavidTree · Mar 19, 2022

Rhomphaeam said:

The Scripture doesn't say that they attempted to cover their physical nakedness - it says that they did cover their physical nakedness. As to the soul in your post - where was the fear experienced when Adam expressed to God that he was afraid? Where do you feel fear if you become afraid? In your mind or in your body? If you say in your mind and body then consider that physical fear is a sympathetic response to stimuli that are perceived to be a threat - and it is part of the autonomic nervous system. You have no conscious control over it. It is the other branch of the autonomic nervous system called parasympathetic nervous system, that produces the rest state.

Yet the mind itself can produce psychosomatic effects predicated out of learned experience that can trigger the same autonomic response to perceived threats rather than visual, auditory, gustatory, tactile and olfactory stimuli. These perceived threats are in the learned mind and they don't produce a need to hide as Adam did - until the mind yields to them by reinforcement predicated out of anxiety - or until a physical stimuli is present. So was Adam anxious whilst he waited for his daily meeting with God? Or was he only afraid when he heard God calling out to him?

The soul is not born again - yet we imagine that by simply reading the Word of God we will come into an understanding mind. Some are so keen on their discernment - as they call it - that they require others to agree with them - and they do.

As to the coffee and fellowship - if you do not know where people come from then how will people find you so as to benefit from your hospitality? So how can expressing that claim hold any substance on a forum?

The fig leaves was an attempt to cover their nakedness with fig leaves sown together = did they cover themselves? Yes, but not according to God = which is the only thing that matters = to them and to us.
So we see God corrected that with animal skins.

Do you know why God did this?
Can you find in the NT Letters where this 'fig leaf' covering is a failure and a rebellion against God?

Rhomphaeam · Mar 19, 2022

godlovejoy said:

There were ten virgins and the only distinction between them was a matter of wisdom or foolishness expressed as having sufficient oil in their lamps.

To your response to myself @#285. Show me again from the Scripture where the Levite priests were sealed in their foreheads. I cited four verses @#270 that gave you a reason to know what I am saying - but you cannot see it. Why is that, sister. Why can you not see that your testimony is your own and cannot be a basis for inciting a curse of God on others. Yet you go on to specutavily as another if you are an Apostle. Come to the mark, sister.

DavidTree · Mar 19, 2022

RR said:

Revelation has some literal and symbolism interwoven throughout.

Revelation ch7 and ch14 that speak of the 144k is symbolic.

Where can you find in the Gospels and/or writings of the Apostles that would validate the 144k as being "an actual body count" as you stated.

Do not take my abruptness in any way as offensive since I am not diplomatic as some and tend be direct.

You show me something that i may have missed in Scripture and i will rejoice because we are always to rejoice in truth.

An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

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