An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation
- Thread starter Carry_Your_Name
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
ALSO NOT the point Paul was making in that Rom2:28-29 text
[his conclusion regarding the "ALL" in chpt 3("ALL," Jew and Gentile alike) is at the END of his entire OUTLINE"... but which you've apparently IGNORED of my Post. Oh well.
]
Keep spreading that falsehood about what Rom2:28-29 is talking about...
[his conclusion regarding the "ALL" in chpt 3("ALL," Jew and Gentile alike) is at the END of his entire OUTLINE"... but which you've apparently IGNORED of my Post. Oh well.
]Keep spreading that falsehood about what Rom2:28-29 is talking about...
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3For we are the circumcision, who worship [a]God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
What things the LORD and the Apostles wrote for the 'here and now' pertain to the Resurrection and ALL that will come.
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Paul counts his Jewish fleshly ancestry as rubbish compared to the Glory that is Coming for both the Jew & Gentile in Christ.
If I were you, I would listen to what the Apostle has to say on matters that you nor I have no authority upon which to challenge.
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Paul counts his Jewish fleshly ancestry as rubbish compared to the Glory that is Coming for both the Jew & Gentile in Christ.
If I were you, I would listen to what the Apostle has to say on matters that you nor I have no authority upon which to challenge.
Here is the POINT that God made to us thru the Apostle Paul:
A.) But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
B.) For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
C.) nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
D.) That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
E.) but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
F.) For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
A.) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
B.) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
C.) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
D.) And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
A.) But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
B.) For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
C.) nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
D.) That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
E.) but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
F.) For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
A.) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
B.) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
C.) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
D.) And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Did I say that God did not cloth Adam and Eve with garments of skins? Genesis 3:21
Perhaps you could answer why Adam told God that he was naked when he had already clothed himself. If you could do that then you may be able to make a proper distinction as to why you utilise the Word of God so well that others' beliefs have become a source of amusement for you @#221. Or why you offer a reward of $1000 dollars for a Scriptural proof of the pre tribulation position @#219. Or why you offer coffee and fellowship when no one can attend and then tell myself that those who lean towards the mid tribulation have something to stand on - then qualify that as making peace between two extremes of pre and post tribulation @#211.
Adam wasn't naked! And that is the Scripture. Genesis 3:7
Did God tell Adam that he was naked? Or did Adam tell God that he was naked? Yet the skins were to cover his physical body. And so why would anyone say what I said about the covering of the mind?
But to answer your question, do I NOT believe that "God clothed Adam & Eve, after their sin, with the skin(s) of a sheep/animal?"
Yes I DO believe that God clothed Adam & Eve, after their sin, with the skins(s) of a sheep/animal. Just as it is written in Genesis 3:21.
The soul is clothed by the body. And the mind is imprisoned by sinful flesh. Yet we believe that by simply reading the Word we will receive understanding. .
“For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the Lord. “Unleavened bread shall be eaten throughout the seven days; and nothing leavened shall be seen among you, nor shall any leaven be seen among you in all your borders. “You shall tell your son on that day, saying, ‘It is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ “And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the Lord brought you out of Egypt." Exodus 13:6-9 @godlovejoy
phylacteries Exodus 13:16
A lot is said in this thread and some of it oversteps the boundaries of necessity.
Exodus 13:9; Exodus 13:16; Deuteronomy 6:8; Deuteronomy 11:18
Perhaps you could answer why Adam told God that he was naked when he had already clothed himself. If you could do that then you may be able to make a proper distinction as to why you utilise the Word of God so well that others' beliefs have become a source of amusement for you @#221. Or why you offer a reward of $1000 dollars for a Scriptural proof of the pre tribulation position @#219. Or why you offer coffee and fellowship when no one can attend and then tell myself that those who lean towards the mid tribulation have something to stand on - then qualify that as making peace between two extremes of pre and post tribulation @#211.
Adam wasn't naked! And that is the Scripture. Genesis 3:7
Did God tell Adam that he was naked? Or did Adam tell God that he was naked? Yet the skins were to cover his physical body. And so why would anyone say what I said about the covering of the mind?
But to answer your question, do I NOT believe that "God clothed Adam & Eve, after their sin, with the skin(s) of a sheep/animal?"
Yes I DO believe that God clothed Adam & Eve, after their sin, with the skins(s) of a sheep/animal. Just as it is written in Genesis 3:21.
The soul is clothed by the body. And the mind is imprisoned by sinful flesh. Yet we believe that by simply reading the Word we will receive understanding. .
“For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the Lord. “Unleavened bread shall be eaten throughout the seven days; and nothing leavened shall be seen among you, nor shall any leaven be seen among you in all your borders. “You shall tell your son on that day, saying, ‘It is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ “And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the Lord brought you out of Egypt." Exodus 13:6-9 @godlovejoy
phylacteries Exodus 13:16
A lot is said in this thread and some of it oversteps the boundaries of necessity.
Exodus 13:9; Exodus 13:16; Deuteronomy 6:8; Deuteronomy 11:18
Prove it.
Where do you get the idea that the word "each" means "of more than two?
Let's look again at 1 Cor 15:23 and debunk your theory.
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
OK, for the color blind here, we have the examined word in red, which is "each".
Then, we have the blue which is the FIRST of those who are "in turn". btw, What are these "in turn" for? The resurrection.
Then we have the orange, the SECOND of those who are "in turn".
The green tells us WHEN this resurrection of "those who belong to Him" will occur, which is WHEN He COMES.
So, NO, TDW, "each" CANNOT mean "of more than two".
Here is what biblehub.com has on the word:
hekastos: each, every
Original Word: ἕκαστος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hekastos
Phonetic Spelling: (hek'-as-tos)
Definition: each, every
Usage: each (of more than two), every one.
Please note what is in parentheses. iow, that is a translator's opinion being inserted.
This is how my interlinear translates v.23: but each one in the (his) own order: [the] first fruit Christ, afterward the [ones] of Cnrist in the presence of him.
This is how my lexicon translates the word:
"each one, everyone separately"
For those who aren't color blind can easily see that there are ONLY TWO in the verse that are referenced by "each".
So there CANNOT be "more than two" as TDW claims.
There are ONLY TWO being referenced in the verse where "each" is the reference. CANNOT BE more than 2.
If this is relevant to anything, please include an explanation as to why it is relevant. That word isn't even in the discussion in the first place.
Please stay focused.
Where do you get the idea that the word "each" means "of more than two?
Let's look again at 1 Cor 15:23 and debunk your theory.
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
OK, for the color blind here, we have the examined word in red, which is "each".
Then, we have the blue which is the FIRST of those who are "in turn". btw, What are these "in turn" for? The resurrection.
Then we have the orange, the SECOND of those who are "in turn".
The green tells us WHEN this resurrection of "those who belong to Him" will occur, which is WHEN He COMES.
So, NO, TDW, "each" CANNOT mean "of more than two".
Here is what biblehub.com has on the word:
hekastos: each, every
Original Word: ἕκαστος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hekastos
Phonetic Spelling: (hek'-as-tos)
Definition: each, every
Usage: each (of more than two), every one.
Please note what is in parentheses. iow, that is a translator's opinion being inserted.
This is how my interlinear translates v.23: but each one in the (his) own order: [the] first fruit Christ, afterward the [ones] of Cnrist in the presence of him.
This is how my lexicon translates the word:
"each one, everyone separately"
For those who aren't color blind can easily see that there are ONLY TWO in the verse that are referenced by "each".
So there CANNOT be "more than two" as TDW claims.
There are ONLY TWO being referenced in the verse where "each" is the reference. CANNOT BE more than 2.
If this is relevant to anything, please include an explanation as to why it is relevant. That word isn't even in the discussion in the first place.
Please stay focused.
Although Revelation is a book of symbols, numbers—but not necessarily what they are used to designate (“days,” “times,” “tribes,” etc.)—always have a literal application. Therefore, 144,000 is the predetermined number to comprise the Bride of Christ; that is, it is the actual count of body members to be associated with Jesus in his Kingdom throne. The expression “of all the tribes of the children of Israel” is a spiritual designation or reference to the true Church, “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16 NIV). This latter classification in New Testament usage is not confined or limited to natural Jewry but is open to those exercising the faith of Abraham (Rom. 4:12,13; 9:6–8,24–26)
This tabulation of the spiritual tribes, when compared with the names inscribed on the breastplate jewels of the high priest, based on Numbers 2:3–31, notably omits the tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Dan. The exclusion of these two particular tribes does not escape the attention of the close and discriminating student of the Word of Matt. 4:4). It seems quite apparent that the omission is intentional and meaningful.
What lesson is meant to be conveyed? The deletion signifies that those Christians possessing the characteristics of these two classes in the unfavorable sense will be most in danger of failure, and thus will not be found amidst the elect body of Christ in glory. The implication is that among the called of God, the greater proportion of those who fail to be specially sealed will be such as give loose rein to the Ephraim and Dan injurious character traits. A word of caution is necessary. Though these damaging propensities will have to be dealt with and most aggressively controlled by the selfsame two tribes, these unfavorable qualities are also possessed to a greater or lesser extent by all the tribes. In other words, what the Spirit might imply concerning the two tribes is a warning to all. Watch and pray!
“Ephraim,” an eponym for the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel, can refer to either natural or nominal spiritual Israel. Here in Revelation the term tacitly indicates a large spiritual class. Among other things, Ephraim means multi-fruitful, that is, a large seedbearing progeny later designated “a great multitude” (verse 9). This tribe is referred to as “a cake not turned” or a cake half-baked, representing immaturity (Hos. 7:8). It is also likened to “a silly dove” (Hos. 7:11); that is, a chaste and undefiled, though unwise, body of Christians described by the Lord in the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins (Hos. 13:12,13; Matt. 25:1–13). Although those comprising this company do inherit a spiritual reward, it is of a secondary nature. A primary fault of their own choosing is that they are improperly schooled in the exercise and control of emotional judgment.
The omission of the tribe of Dan from the list of the sealed represents another class of Christians with spiritual hopes who fail to meet the standard requirements of the Very Elect. However, those of the Dan class receive a far more ominous fate than that of Ephraim, for their deeds merit “second” or eternal death as a reward (Rev. 2:11). Jacob’s prophecy (Gen. 49:17) reads:
"Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" [to destruction—see 1 Sam. 4:18]
Sow a thought; reap an act. Sow an act; reap a habit. Sow a habit; reap a character. In Bible symbolism the horse signifies doctrine, and the rider represents the one who follows or is carried by that doctrine to a corresponding destiny. In addition to a serious tampering with and alteration of doctrine, Genesis 49:17 indicates a hypercritical, backbiting, faultfinding disposition with regard to others that leads the possessor to the most disastrous consequences (Luke 17:1,2).
Again, a word of caution is necessary. The exclusion of Dan makes sense only when viewed from the foregoing condemnatory standpoint. Quite to the contrary, in all other tabulations of the tribes throughout Scripture, Dan occupies a position of either acceptance (Gen. 49:16) or esteem, such as an identification with the Kingdom tribes of the future and an association with the entrance gates of the Holy City to come (Ezek. 48:1,32)
This tabulation of the spiritual tribes, when compared with the names inscribed on the breastplate jewels of the high priest, based on Numbers 2:3–31, notably omits the tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Dan. The exclusion of these two particular tribes does not escape the attention of the close and discriminating student of the Word of Matt. 4:4). It seems quite apparent that the omission is intentional and meaningful.
What lesson is meant to be conveyed? The deletion signifies that those Christians possessing the characteristics of these two classes in the unfavorable sense will be most in danger of failure, and thus will not be found amidst the elect body of Christ in glory. The implication is that among the called of God, the greater proportion of those who fail to be specially sealed will be such as give loose rein to the Ephraim and Dan injurious character traits. A word of caution is necessary. Though these damaging propensities will have to be dealt with and most aggressively controlled by the selfsame two tribes, these unfavorable qualities are also possessed to a greater or lesser extent by all the tribes. In other words, what the Spirit might imply concerning the two tribes is a warning to all. Watch and pray!
“Ephraim,” an eponym for the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel, can refer to either natural or nominal spiritual Israel. Here in Revelation the term tacitly indicates a large spiritual class. Among other things, Ephraim means multi-fruitful, that is, a large seedbearing progeny later designated “a great multitude” (verse 9). This tribe is referred to as “a cake not turned” or a cake half-baked, representing immaturity (Hos. 7:8). It is also likened to “a silly dove” (Hos. 7:11); that is, a chaste and undefiled, though unwise, body of Christians described by the Lord in the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins (Hos. 13:12,13; Matt. 25:1–13). Although those comprising this company do inherit a spiritual reward, it is of a secondary nature. A primary fault of their own choosing is that they are improperly schooled in the exercise and control of emotional judgment.
The omission of the tribe of Dan from the list of the sealed represents another class of Christians with spiritual hopes who fail to meet the standard requirements of the Very Elect. However, those of the Dan class receive a far more ominous fate than that of Ephraim, for their deeds merit “second” or eternal death as a reward (Rev. 2:11). Jacob’s prophecy (Gen. 49:17) reads:
"Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" [to destruction—see 1 Sam. 4:18]
Sow a thought; reap an act. Sow an act; reap a habit. Sow a habit; reap a character. In Bible symbolism the horse signifies doctrine, and the rider represents the one who follows or is carried by that doctrine to a corresponding destiny. In addition to a serious tampering with and alteration of doctrine, Genesis 49:17 indicates a hypercritical, backbiting, faultfinding disposition with regard to others that leads the possessor to the most disastrous consequences (Luke 17:1,2).
Again, a word of caution is necessary. The exclusion of Dan makes sense only when viewed from the foregoing condemnatory standpoint. Quite to the contrary, in all other tabulations of the tribes throughout Scripture, Dan occupies a position of either acceptance (Gen. 49:16) or esteem, such as an identification with the Kingdom tribes of the future and an association with the entrance gates of the Holy City to come (Ezek. 48:1,32)
-
1
- Show all
- Status