An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[DavidTree]

I made no assumption. I asked a question concerning two men. Why do you brethren endlessly attribute to others what they have not said? You have made yourself teachers. Then prepare yourself to being more harshly judged when the Kingdom comes in its fulness as it did in its part on the Mount of Transfiguration in the sight of Peter, James and John.

Does the scripture say they were in glorified bodies or does it say they saw Moses and Elijah?
What about Lazarus who Jesus raised? He was not raised in a glorified immortal body

At what point does the Scripture say we receive our resurrected glorified bodies?

Maybe Moses and Elijah are the exception??? Could be

Who are the two witnesses in Rev who are killed by the Beast?
Could they be Enoch and Elijah?
If they are Enoch and Elijah how can the Beast kill a glorified immortal body?
The two witnesses are killed and raised from the dead.

I don't have all the answers but enjoy listening to others insight on such matters.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Jews were very "racist" and considered Gentiles less than human. Ergo, "dogs".

Th expression used of those in unbelief in Scripture is spiritual dogs. It is not a racist term - even if you do deflect the claim parenthetically. The Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-28 called herself a dog. And in Revelation 22:13-16 The Lord called those who are without the city - dogs. Its a spiritual expression - no need to draw us into race theory, brother.

 

[DavidTree]

I made no assumption. I asked a question concerning two men. Why do you brethren endlessly attribute to others what they have not said? You have made yourself teachers. Then prepare yourself to being more harshly judged when the Kingdom comes in its fulness as it did in its part on the Mount of Transfiguration in the sight of Peter, James and John.

IMPORTANT NOTE: ONLY Jesus was transfigured - not Moses and Elijah

 

[FreeGrace2]

Th expression used of those in unbelief in Scripture is spiritual dogs. It is not a racist term - even if you do deflect the claim parenthetically. The Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-28 called herself a dog. And in Revelation 22:13-16 The Lord called those who are without the city - dogs. Its a spiritual expression - no need to draw us into race theory, brother.

One question; did the Jews consider Gentiles to be their equals, or not?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

One question; did the Jews consider Gentiles to be their equals, or not?

Definitely not, if they still believe "WE are the saviors we've been waiting for."

 

[DavidTree]

One question; did the Jews consider Gentiles to be their equals, or not?

Questions posed for you in post #601

 

[DavidTree]

Definitely not, if they still believe "WE are the saviors we've been waiting for."

Questions posed for you in post #601

 

[FreeGrace2]

Th expression used of those in unbelief in Scripture is spiritual dogs. It is not a racist term - even if you do deflect the claim parenthetically. The Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-28 called herself a dog.

Think about it: why would that woman call herself a "dog" in a spiritual sense, SINCE she absolutely DID believe that Jesus was the Messiah who could heal her daughter?

22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

She called Jesus the "Son of David". iow, she BELIEVED the prophecy about the Messiah being in the line of David.
She specifically called Him "Lord" and asked for help. Obviously believing that He could help her.
v.27 she recognized in total humility how Jews viewed Gentiles. That IS racist. She was admitting that she was inferior to Jews.
Jesus commends her GREAT FAITH and grants her request.

This story illustrates that the Jews DID view Gentiles as lower than themselves. That is bigotry, which today is called by the incorrect word "racist".

In fact, as you know, there is only ONE race, and that is the human race.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Questions posed for you in post #601

Great questions for those who think that any rising from the dead gets a glorified body.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Questions posed for you in post #601

“Glorified bodies” are only granted on the Day of the Lord when Jesus returns, no person before that can receive a glorified body. When Jesus was resurrected He was still in an earthly body, while glorified body was the one which John saw in Rev. 1.

When Jesus was transfigurated, that was a VISION of a glorified body, Moses and Elijah over there were also a vision. Obviously they weren’t physically there.

 

[DavidTree]

Great questions for those who think that any rising from the dead gets a glorified body.

I am open to anything that i may have missed or not seen clearly or just don't know - and so i ask.

By the way, member RR never responded to my simple question in response to his full page synopsis of Rev & the 10 virgins.

QUESTION: Can you find a directive from the LORD or the Apostles that the LORD will leave behind His Saints and then come back for them after the Resurrection?

As a matter of fact - not one pre-trib or mid trib expository member has answered this question.

 

[DavidTree]

“Glorified bodies” are only granted on the Day of the Lord when Jesus returns, no person before that can receive a glorified body. When Jesus was resurrected He was still in an earthly body, while glorified body was the one which John saw in Rev. 1.

When Jesus was transfigurated, that was a VISION of a glorified body, Moses and Elijah over there were also a vision. Obviously they weren’t physically there.

Jesus was there physically - could Moses and Elijah actually been there in their spirit/soul?

We know that when a person dies and puts off the physical body that they are still recognizable in there soul/spirit form as who they were and are.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus was there physically - could Moses and Elijah actually been there in their spirit/soul?

We know that when a person dies and puts off the physical body that they are still recognizable in there soul/spirit form as who they were and are.

Yeah, since John was “in spirit” when he saw all of those visions and interacted with angels, so were Moses and Elijah at that moment.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

DavidTree said:
You will not find one verse in Revelation where there are Resurrected Saints until chapter 20.

What makes you assume that ch 4 proves there has been a resurrection? Aren't there believers already in heaven? Why can't you accept that what John saw in ch 4 represent believers from all the ages? And they are STILL awaiting the resurrection, when they accompany Jesus back to earth, as 1 Thess 4 plainly says.


You are confusing OT and NT. When Jesus said that, NO believer was in heaven. All went to Hades, to the compartment caled Paradise or Abraham's Bosom, awaiting for Jesus to come to Hades and take them to heaven.

When John wrote Revelation, all dead believers were already in heaven.

1. They are in their white robes, they have their glorified bodies.
2. They have already received their crowns

These things are not promised until AFTER the resurrection.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

All the Saints you see in the throne room are the souls/spirits of dead in Christ = 1 Thess 4:13-18

Paradise was not heaven nor the throne room = Luke ch16

2 Cor ch5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Yes, which means they have been resurrected.

Thank you

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, which means they have been resurrected.

Thank you

So all the Saints in Heaven have all been Resurrected?

 

[FreeGrace2]

“Glorified bodies” are only granted on the Day of the Lord when Jesus returns, no person before that can receive a glorified body. When Jesus was resurrected He was still in an earthly body, while glorified body was the one which John saw in Rev. 1.

I disagree. Jesus moved into a locked room. That ain't no mortal body. His resurrection was the first one (firstfruits) where a glorified body was given.

Consider Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Obviously He wasn't the first to "rise from the dead". There are examples in the OT and many in the gospels, before Jesus died.

The key is whether one receives an immortal body, (imperishable) as Paul puts it.

1 Cor 15:54 - When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

When Jesus was transfigurated, that was a VISION of a glorified body

How do you know that it was a vision? Read the text.

Matt 17:2 - There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

This is not debatable. Jesus WAS transfigured right before their very eyes.

Moses and Elijah over there were also a vision. Obviously they weren’t physically there.

The Bible says that they WERE there. And they talked with Jesus.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am a member of the ISRAEL of GOD for I have been Born-Again in CHRIST and I have been Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

As far as salvation and eternity goes yoru right

As far as the promise made to a nation here on earth, You are NOT!

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

What shall we say then?
That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

You can post these verses until you are blue in the face. If you do not get the context Correct, (which you are not) You are posting them in vein, because they do not support your case.

Rom 11 seperates saved gentile vs saved Israel.

Paul tells us saved Israel are of Isreal. the natural branch, And they are blinded iN PART.

He also warned us GENTILE believers (the unnatural branch) not to be proud and arrogant, that when the time of the gentile is fulfilled. ALL ISREAL will be saved.

Which is also exactly what the prophets of old has said.

It makes no sense period to say 12000 from each tribe. there ARE NO GENTILE TRIBES, we are ONE, JEW AND GENTILE, SLAVE AND FREE

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So all the Saints in Heaven have all been Resurrected?

right now? No.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am open to anything that i may have missed or not seen clearly or just don't know - and so i ask.

By the way, member RR never responded to my simple question in response to his full page synopsis of Rev & the 10 virgins.

QUESTION: Can you find a directive from the LORD or the Apostles that the LORD will leave behind His Saints and then come back for them after the Resurrection?

As a matter of fact - not one pre-trib or mid trib expository member has answered this question.

There are no verses that prove or give clear evidence of the pretrib idea. That's why they have to go to parables, where their "interpretation" cannot be refuted. Only the One who gave the parable has the authority to explain it.