An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

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Aug 2, 2021
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Jacob was also given a plot of land, And told this land belongs to him and his family forever. As was promised to Abraham and Isaac.

Christ is the heavenly Isreal and the salvation which comes from all nations being blessed through that seed.

Which is seperate from the land promise that God gave Israel.

God did nto give the land or the promise of peace to the church, he gave it to the physical descendents of Abraham, isaac and jacob.
We, the Body of Christ, have Higher Ground = Gal ch4 , Rev 3:11-13 , Rev 21:1-2
 

Everlasting-Grace

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1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 , Heb 9:28 , 1 John 3:1-3
Non of those passages prove they were not ressurected.

They wear the robes of the ressurected. They wear the crowns of the ressurected.

To say they have not been ressurected yet is just plain false.

(They are not in paradise awaiting the ressurection, they are in the throne room)
 

Everlasting-Grace

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We, the Body of Christ, have Higher Ground = Gal ch4 , Rev 3:11-13 , Rev 21:1-2
True

that does not negate Gods promise to the people he made the promise too.

That promise still stands today. God does not go back on his promises.. Thats what men do.
 
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Non of those passages prove they were not ressurected.

They wear the robes of the ressurected. They wear the crowns of the ressurected.

To say they have not been ressurected yet is just plain false.

(They are not in paradise awaiting the ressurection, they are in the throne room)
ALL of those passages prove that our Glorified Bodies ONLY take place at His Second Coming.

ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.

God does not want you ignorant of this:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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ALL of those passages prove that our Glorified Bodies ONLY take place at His Second Coming.

ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.

God does not want you ignorant of this:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
That passage says we meet Christ in the air. It is then that we will precede to the judgment etc etc

Nothing in that passage says he returns to earth boots on the ground.

If you using this to try to disprove pre trib, You wasting your time.

This thread is about the 144000 not the rapture. Can we stick to the subject?
 
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Gen 15:
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:


“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

This is not Christ. He said YOUR DESCENDENTS!

Gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The same promise, seen as an ETERNAL PROMISE meaning this gift IS STILL IN EFFECT TODAY!

Rom 9 and gal 3 does not counter the verses posted above where one particular promise is given to one particular group.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16 KJV

This says promises (plural) in every version of the Bible I can find. I don't know what version of the Bible you are looking at.

If the promises go to Christ and those in Christ it has still fulfilled the promise of land being given to descendants, just not all of the descendants. The promises don't go to all of the descendants per Romans 9. And all in Christ are Abraham's seed.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29 KJV

Are you claiming that Christians are not descendants of Abraham through Christ?

You still claim God lied!
Why do you persist in this evil of false speech? It's not too late! Turn around.

You claim the promise given in the verses I post above is no longer valid. When you claim it was not given to the one nation. But christ, or to all people jew or gentile.

the pomises were not made about Jesus or gentiles.
Reel this back for a second here. What you are claiming is that "promises" in Gal 3 that were made to Abraham would actually be referring to a different set of "promises" than those given to Abraham in the OT.

How are you differentiating these sets of promises? In your view what are the promises to Abraham that Gal 3 is talking about?

It was made to one nation PERIOD
No. Show me the passage that states "these promises were made to the nation of Israel". The promises are Christ's and those in Christ. This happens to beg inclusive of some that were born from the bloodline of Jacob/Israel, but not exclusive to them because the promise is through Christ. Again, Gal 3:29 spells it out.

when Jesus came, He fulfulled literally what was said concerning him

when God says 144000 of the people/nation for Isreal. He means it. It is not up to us to change his words. perfert his words. or to give a different meaning to the words God spoke as these events WILL TAKE PLACE
John saw 144000. This could be an abstract symbol within the vision, it could also be the spirited form of the saints resurrected at the crucifixion. I don't have a problem with interpreting the 144,000 as ethnic Jews. I also don't have a problem with the interpretation that they are abstract symbolism in the same way that there weren't literally 10 virgins trying to enter the kingdom of heaven with lamps.

Make your case if you think otherwise. Rev 7:4 does not say "nation of Israel." Rev 7:4 says "from all the tribes of Israel"

the 4 gentile kingdoms were and are (in the case of the last kingdom) literally fulfilled as said.
What are you talking about here?
 
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That passage says we meet Christ in the air. It is then that we will precede to the judgment etc etc

Nothing in that passage says he returns to earth boots on the ground.

If you using this to try to disprove pre trib, You wasting your time.

This thread is about the 144000 not the rapture. Can we stick to the subject?
You will not find one verse in Revelation where there are Resurrected Saints until chapter 20.
 
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Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16 KJV

This says promises (plural) in every version of the Bible I can find. I don't know what version of the Bible you are looking at.

If the promises go to Christ and those in Christ it has still fulfilled the promise of land being given to descendants, just not all of the descendants. The promises don't go to all of the descendants per Romans 9. And all in Christ are Abraham's seed.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29 KJV

Are you claiming that Christians are not descendants of Abraham through Christ?



Why do you persist in this evil of false speech? It's not too late! Turn around.



Reel this back for a second here. What you are claiming is that "promises" in Gal 3 that were made to Abraham would actually be referring to a different set of "promises" than those given to Abraham in the OT.

How are you differentiating these sets of promises? In your view what are the promises to Abraham that Gal 3 is talking about?



No. Show me the passage that states "these promises were made to the nation of Israel". The promises are Christ's and those in Christ. This happens to beg inclusive of some that were born from the bloodline of Jacob/Israel, but not exclusive to them because the promise is through Christ. Again, Gal 3:29 spells it out.



John saw 144000. This could be an abstract symbol within the vision, it could also be the spirited form of the saints resurrected at the crucifixion. I don't have a problem with interpreting the 144,000 as ethnic Jews. I also don't have a problem with the interpretation that they are abstract symbolism in the same way that there weren't literally 10 virgins trying to enter the kingdom of heaven with lamps.

Make your case if you think otherwise. Rev 7:4 does not say "nation of Israel." Rev 7:4 says "from all the tribes of Israel"



What are you talking about here?
CLUE for the 144,000 = Born-Again = Born into What???
 
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Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16 KJV

This says promises (plural) in every version of the Bible I can find. I don't know what version of the Bible you are looking at.

If the promises go to Christ and those in Christ it has still fulfilled the promise of land being given to descendants, just not all of the descendants. The promises don't go to all of the descendants per Romans 9. And all in Christ are Abraham's seed.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29 KJV

Are you claiming that Christians are not descendants of Abraham through Christ?



Why do you persist in this evil of false speech? It's not too late! Turn around.



Reel this back for a second here. What you are claiming is that "promises" in Gal 3 that were made to Abraham would actually be referring to a different set of "promises" than those given to Abraham in the OT.

How are you differentiating these sets of promises? In your view what are the promises to Abraham that Gal 3 is talking about?



No. Show me the passage that states "these promises were made to the nation of Israel". The promises are Christ's and those in Christ. This happens to beg inclusive of some that were born from the bloodline of Jacob/Israel, but not exclusive to them because the promise is through Christ. Again, Gal 3:29 spells it out.



John saw 144000. This could be an abstract symbol within the vision, it could also be the spirited form of the saints resurrected at the crucifixion. I don't have a problem with interpreting the 144,000 as ethnic Jews. I also don't have a problem with the interpretation that they are abstract symbolism in the same way that there weren't literally 10 virgins trying to enter the kingdom of heaven with lamps.

Make your case if you think otherwise. Rev 7:4 does not say "nation of Israel." Rev 7:4 says "from all the tribes of Israel"



What are you talking about here?
Second CLUE for the 144,000 - 12 X 12 X 1000
 
Feb 24, 2022
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The dead and living that are “In Christ” are caught up together in the clouds. This is the First Resurrection.....Do a Study......So who are they that are “In Christ”?
The dead will receive a new physical body like a plant sprouting from a seed, according to 1 Cor. 15:35-49. Not just naked souls.
 

Rhomphaeam

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ALL of those passages prove that our Glorified Bodies ONLY take place at His Second Coming.

ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.

God does not want you ignorant of this:
In what body was Moses found on the Mount of Transfiguration? And what body Elijah?
 

Rhomphaeam

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If this were true then the LORD would never of spoken of:
A. His Second Coming
B. Enduring through Tribulation
C. World events leading up to His Coming
D. Warning of deception - false teachers, prophets, doctrines of demons
E. the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists and finally the "man of sin" = the antichrist
F. Warning against the Mark of the Beast
G. His Coming = Resurrection of the Dead in Him
H. His Coming = destruction of the antichrist and his followers
I. His Coming = transformed into His Likeness
J. His Coming = Reigning and Ruling with Him on thrones of Glory

HE did elaborate on these things so I like to be in the Know.
It sucks to be led along down the wrong path.
Example: There are people on here who do not believe in a physical return of the LORD and the Resurrection of the Dead.
Can you explain what I said that produced this instruction that "If this were true &c ?

I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers. Indeed it could be argued that eschatological doctrines have done as much to harm the flocks as any other heretical determination has done. It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded, and so there is no immediate reason to be concerned - even when it is self-evident that we may be living selfish lives with little or no fruit of the Spirit. By making the signs of the times a focus we have missed our own conduct.
 
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Can you explain what I said that produced this instruction that "If this were true &c ?
Since the LORD spoke of these things which HE wants us to know.
A. His Second Coming
B. Enduring through Tribulation
C. World events leading up to His Coming
D. Warning of deception - false teachers, prophets, doctrines of demons
E. the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists and finally the "man of sin" = the antichrist
F. Warning against the Mark of the Beast
G. His Coming = Resurrection of the Dead in Him
H. His Coming = destruction of the antichrist and his followers
I. His Coming = transformed into His Likeness
J. His Coming = Reigning and Ruling with Him on thrones of Glory

Fully agree with you that knowledge of these things does not prove spirituality.
Neither does ignorance of these things.
 

Rhomphaeam

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Not in a resurrected glorified body = guaranteed by the Word of God.
There you go again. You impute into my open question a meaning that is not there. I simply asked in what manner of body was Moses and Elijah found on the mount of Transfiguration. Moses had put off his earthly body - Elijah was yet alive in his earthly body. Yet they were indistinguishable from Christ in their countenance. And you seriously ask me to give you any account of why I believe in a mid tribulation rapture?
Since the LORD spoke of these things which HE wants us to know.
A. His Second Coming
B. Enduring through Tribulation
C. World events leading up to His Coming
D. Warning of deception - false teachers, prophets, doctrines of demons
E. the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists and finally the "man of sin" = the antichrist
F. Warning against the Mark of the Beast
G. His Coming = Resurrection of the Dead in Him
H. His Coming = destruction of the antichrist and his followers
I. His Coming = transformed into His Likeness
J. His Coming = Reigning and Ruling with Him on thrones of Glory
Then ask Him. I did.
 
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There you go again. You impute into my open question a meaning that is not there. I simply asked in what manner of body was Moses and Elijah found on the mount of Transfiguration. Moses had put off his earthly body - Elijah was yet alive in his earthly body. Yet they were indistinguishable from Christ in their countenance. And you seriously ask me to give you any account of why I believe in a mid tribulation rapture?


Then ask Him. I did.
Looking to argue without the desire to seek truth is not complimentary to the desire of the Holy Spirit.
When i ask questions it for the direct purpose to understand what the Member is seeking to convey and/or to challenge the Member to think more deeply into Scripture to see if those things are in complete agreement with Scripture.
There are many false doctrines that have arisen over the past 2,000 years since Christ & the Apostles walked this earth.
This also is not pleasing to the Holy Spirit.

"And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."
Acts ch20
 

Rhomphaeam

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Looking to argue without the desire to seek truth is not complimentary to the desire of the Holy Spirit.
When i ask questions it for the direct purpose to understand what the Member is seeking to convey and/or to challenge the Member to think more deeply into Scripture to see if those things are in complete agreement with Scripture.
There are many false doctrines that have arisen over the past 2,000 years since Christ & the Apostles walked this earth.
This also is not pleasing to the Holy Spirit.

"And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."
Acts ch20
I am not arguing. Neither do you simply ask questions when you are asked a question and then inferentially impute a meaning which then affords you an opportunity to tell me that I am effectively grieving the Holy Spirit when I do ask plain questions. If I do decline to answer a simple question qualified in your stated terms as to your righteous simplify (as you would have me receive them) then when I answer in my own understanding why I regard eschatological discussions to be a vanity - you correct me and use the very name of the Lord to uphold your correction. In all things I am corrected and in all things I am found in error.

So what does your wife's Rabbi understand when you tell him that you believe in the Ruach HaKodesh? And do you expressly define the Neshamah when you tell him that you love him? Or do you believe that the Rabbi holds to the person of the Holy Spirit as true God?
 
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I am not arguing. Neither do you simply ask questions when you are asked a question and then inferentially impute a meaning which then affords you an opportunity to tell me that I am effectively grieving the Holy Spirit when I do ask plain questions. If I do decline to answer a simple question qualified in your stated terms as to your righteous simplify (as you would have me receive them) then when I answer in my own understanding why I regard eschatological discussions to be a vanity - you correct me and use the very name of the Lord to uphold your correction. In all things I am corrected and in all things I am found in error.

So what does your wife's Rabbi understand when you tell him that you believe in the Ruach HaKodesh? And do you expressly define the Neshamah when you tell him that you love him? Or do you believe that the Rabbi holds to the person of the Holy Spirit as true God?
My wife's Rabbi is Yashua HaMashiach. Do you know Him?
 
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4 ...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I underlined it; most people miss this. There are those who lived and reigned with Christ then there are the rest of the dead.
Ok yes the rest of the dead good and evil which will be the 2nd Resurrection after the first resurrection people reign with Christ for the 1,000 years
 
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