An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation
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So they 'rise' twice? First 'rise' is just for the soul and the 2nd rise is just for the earthen body? or the spiritual body? does the spiritual body stay on earth with the dead flesh one or does it follow the soul and spirit up to heaven and then follow it back down to the earth and then then somehow reunites with the dead body and the spiritual body resurrects at that time?
Please excuse the mistakes. Since I believe when this vessel breaks the next vessel takes over it's all very confusing to me. Seems like a perfect plan to just have the two bodies, one for death and one for life. One for here and one for there. Wonder why God didn't think of it Himself instead of all this coming and going and dividing and rejoining and and searching for dust of a fallen earth for an eternal glorified body...
Please excuse the mistakes. Since I believe when this vessel breaks the next vessel takes over it's all very confusing to me. Seems like a perfect plan to just have the two bodies, one for death and one for life. One for here and one for there. Wonder why God didn't think of it Himself instead of all this coming and going and dividing and rejoining and and searching for dust of a fallen earth for an eternal glorified body...
Yes, you misunderstand His Word.
Whoever preaches/teaches against the physical bodily resurrection of the Saints at His Coming is a false witness = 1 Cor ch15
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
Whoever preaches/teaches against the physical bodily resurrection of the Saints at His Coming is a false witness = 1 Cor ch15
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
I'm more or less just pondering in what capacity John was experiencing his vision, especially if he was able to perform the gesture of bowing or kneeling. The running theories seem to be that 1) he was in his physical body, 2) he was in an imperfect spiritual body, and 3) he was present in a glorified spiritual body. I don't think anyone has vouched for 3) but I'll list it for the sake of completion.
Samuel is worth reflecting on too because the same premise or questions apply. Was it a physical body? A imperfect spiritual body? Or a glorified spiritual body?
And then we can test and compare those examples against the 144,000. Were they physical? Were they imperfect spiritual bodies? Or were they glorified spiritual bodies?
"Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself." - 1 Sam 28:11-14 KJV
I can't say I ever thought about the concept of "Saul heard but did not see" and "the woman saw but did not hear" which would be based on the absence of those descriptors rather than an explicit negation. It's little things like this that make my day when hearing other people's point of view, so that even if I don't find it convincing (or feel uncertain conviction towards it) in the moment I can catalogue it in the back of my mind until it might 'click' with something else. And in that, sincerely, thank you for sharing your point of view.
Samuel is worth reflecting on too because the same premise or questions apply. Was it a physical body? A imperfect spiritual body? Or a glorified spiritual body?
And then we can test and compare those examples against the 144,000. Were they physical? Were they imperfect spiritual bodies? Or were they glorified spiritual bodies?
"Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself." - 1 Sam 28:11-14 KJV
I can't say I ever thought about the concept of "Saul heard but did not see" and "the woman saw but did not hear" which would be based on the absence of those descriptors rather than an explicit negation. It's little things like this that make my day when hearing other people's point of view, so that even if I don't find it convincing (or feel uncertain conviction towards it) in the moment I can catalogue it in the back of my mind until it might 'click' with something else. And in that, sincerely, thank you for sharing your point of view.
FreeGrace2 said:
The bodies of the saints who are returning with Christ. iow, the physical bodies are RESURRECTED and glorified and joined to the saints that come back with Christ.
That's all.
Did you not read the above??
If you have a specific verse, please share so the context is obvious to all.
The bodies of the saints who are returning with Christ. iow, the physical bodies are RESURRECTED and glorified and joined to the saints that come back with Christ.
That's all.
Did you not read the above??
If you have a specific verse, please share so the context is obvious to all.
FreeGrace2 said:
btw, since Revelation also describes the lake of fire as the "second death", I believe the resurrection of the unsaved will be back in their mortal bodies, only to have them die again. And then their unsaved soul will exist in the lake of fire "for ever and ever".
I don't see anything that "goes against Heb 9:27. The verse says that everyone is appointed to die physically ONCE. And then the judgment.
OK. And the 2 witnesses WILL finally die physically at the end of their service.
Can you explain why Revelation also describes the lake of fire as the "second death"? What does that refer to?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Think of the lake of fire as the SECOND DEATH. So, figure out what John meant by calling the lake of fire as the second death, and it will be clear to you.
OK, now you are starting to get warm.
OK, please explain what the second death refers to, specifically. iow, what DIES a second time?
Ending a post with Scripture without any explanation or something is of no benefit. Don't know what your point is. So I can't respond.
btw, since Revelation also describes the lake of fire as the "second death", I believe the resurrection of the unsaved will be back in their mortal bodies, only to have them die again. And then their unsaved soul will exist in the lake of fire "for ever and ever".
I don't see anything that "goes against Heb 9:27. The verse says that everyone is appointed to die physically ONCE. And then the judgment.
OK. And the 2 witnesses WILL finally die physically at the end of their service.
Can you explain why Revelation also describes the lake of fire as the "second death"? What does that refer to?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Think of the lake of fire as the SECOND DEATH. So, figure out what John meant by calling the lake of fire as the second death, and it will be clear to you.
OK, now you are starting to get warm.
OK, please explain what the second death refers to, specifically. iow, what DIES a second time?
Ending a post with Scripture without any explanation or something is of no benefit. Don't know what your point is. So I can't respond.
FreeGrace2 said:
The bodies of the saints who are returning with Christ. iow, the physical bodies are RESURRECTED and glorified and joined to the saints that come back with Christ.
That's all.
Huh??! Why am I having to keep putting out these fires? I've NEVER said anything about anyone rising twice? Seems you are having trouble reading my posts.
If you think I have either said or intimated that people will rise twice, please please guide me to the post # at least.
I think I see where all these "fires" are coming from. It seems you read Rev 20:5 as referring to believers, some of whom rise at one point, and "the rest of the dead" will rise later. I never said that.
The "rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers who will "rise" to attend the GWT judgment, which will be after the millennium.
I hope I can clear all this confusion up for you.
When anyone dies physically, the soul leaves the body. Believers' souls go to heaven and unsaved souls go to the place of torments in Hades. At the resurrection of the saved, Jesus brings with Him the souls of the dead saints, and joins them with a glorified body, which is their old physical body "changed in the twinkling of an eye".
At the resurrection of the unsaved, their souls from the place of torments is joined to their old mortal physical body to attend the GWT judgment. That's a resurrection without a glorified body.
Now, with that said, have you figured out why John calls the lake of fire the second death?
I don't know what the bold words mean or refer to.
"instead of all this coming and going..."??? Really?
The soul of the believer leaves the physical body at physical death. The soul of the believer is joined to the glorified physical body in the resurrection. There's no "all this coming and going, dividing, rejoining, etc".
For the unbeliever, their soul leaves their body at physical death. The soul of that unbeliever is joined to their mortal physical body (resurrection) to attend the GWT.
Are you beginning to understand why the lake of fire is also called the second death?
The bodies of the saints who are returning with Christ. iow, the physical bodies are RESURRECTED and glorified and joined to the saints that come back with Christ.
That's all.
Huh??! Why am I having to keep putting out these fires? I've NEVER said anything about anyone rising twice? Seems you are having trouble reading my posts.
If you think I have either said or intimated that people will rise twice, please please guide me to the post # at least.
I think I see where all these "fires" are coming from. It seems you read Rev 20:5 as referring to believers, some of whom rise at one point, and "the rest of the dead" will rise later. I never said that.
The "rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers who will "rise" to attend the GWT judgment, which will be after the millennium.
I hope I can clear all this confusion up for you.
When anyone dies physically, the soul leaves the body. Believers' souls go to heaven and unsaved souls go to the place of torments in Hades. At the resurrection of the saved, Jesus brings with Him the souls of the dead saints, and joins them with a glorified body, which is their old physical body "changed in the twinkling of an eye".
At the resurrection of the unsaved, their souls from the place of torments is joined to their old mortal physical body to attend the GWT judgment. That's a resurrection without a glorified body.
Now, with that said, have you figured out why John calls the lake of fire the second death?
I don't know what the bold words mean or refer to.
"instead of all this coming and going..."??? Really?
The soul of the believer leaves the physical body at physical death. The soul of the believer is joined to the glorified physical body in the resurrection. There's no "all this coming and going, dividing, rejoining, etc".
For the unbeliever, their soul leaves their body at physical death. The soul of that unbeliever is joined to their mortal physical body (resurrection) to attend the GWT.
Are you beginning to understand why the lake of fire is also called the second death?
First:
The extent of the passage from 1 Samuel is 28:1-25
In reading this passage carefully we can make the following assertions:
Narrative to First:
Narrative:
Samuel does not speak to the necromancer, in fact later on it is clear that she cannot hear Samuel speaking. She can see him, but Saul cannot see. Saul can hear Samuel, but the necromancer cannot hear Samuel’s words. Samuel does not even acknowledge the necromancer, not even indirectly. Samuel knows that it takes more than a third eye to bring the dead up, it takes authority as well. And this was the very effect on the necromancer herself. She knew that she was able to see but she also knew that she had no authority of her own, and therefore no true power. Hence having realised that Samuel was indeed come up from the dead, she knew that the man who had asked her was no less a person than the king of Israel. Nothing good comes out of this wrong exercise of authority by Saul. He is essentially rebuked by Samuel and told that the very next day he would be dead. To which Saul becomes so exhausted emotionally that he collapses onto his face. What follows (vv21-25) is a strange mixture of self-preservation and compassion on the part of the necromancer. In finality, although there is no evidence that she took payment for her efforts, it is clear that this event cost her a fatted calf. Perhaps she was celebrating having escaped with her life having witnessed righteous Samuel come up from the dead.
The next day Saul went up into battle, and in desperation of his wounds committed suicide on the battlefield.
Second:
The etymology of the term
The name Endo’r or En’Dor comes from two Hebrew words meaning spring or fountain and dwelling. Ordinarily, therefore, En’Dor would mean the dwelling by the spring or the fountain of the ancient dwelling.
The Hebrew says ְעֵ֥ין דּֽוֹרבּ Eyn-Doʾr, translated Endor. The various roots of these two words seem somewhat strange at first glance but will make a great deal of sense if they are properly exegeted. The root words mean eye - well - surface - appearance - spring and the second word means generation.
Therefore:
Eyn eye; well; surface; appearance; spring. Doʾr generation past present and future.
There are eight specific uses of ְעֵ֥יןבּ (Noun), one of which is 1 Samuel 28:7. .עֵינֶ֔יָ There are also many conjugations of the root, one of which is “And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand, the Lord brought you out of Egypt” Exodus 13:9.
The expression “on your forehead” contains the Hebrew Eyn, and a literal meaning would be between the eyes. The Hebrew is ֵָ֣בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑יךָ in verse nine, and the same expression is repeated in verse sixteen as ָעַל־יָ֣דְכָ֔ה וּלְטוֹטָפֹ֖ת בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑י where we read “So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:16. In verse nine we read the explanation for why this is commanded.֥ It is so “the law of the Lord may be in your mouth .
Narrative to Second
The distinction that needs to be made to understand the meaning of necromancy as demonstrated by the witch of En'Dor is simply to understand that the instrument she is using to practise her necromancy is the same neurophysiology of the brain structure the priests were warned to guard [between the eyes] by their obedience to Exodus 13:16. The precept is the relationship between spoken utterance and hearing. In short it is characteristically the Shema Yisrael. It is speech and hearing - and that hearing must first be planted in the mind in obedience before it can be spoken - but it also has to be a guard to the relationship between the natural mind and the obedient mind as a visible reminder. If this incident with King Saul had not been a matter of authority (is Saul now numbered amongst the prophets is the exclamation) and "you shall be changed into a different man" [Samuel commanding Saul to obey God's choosing him to be King] - then Samuel could not have become available to his hearing.
As to his hearing he could hear because the means by which he was asking was as a King not as a necromancer and so he was not using his mind to open the veil of hearing - rather exercising prophetic authority as a King of Israel. Had the witch carried this same exercise on behalf of another man than a King Saul she would have been visited by a demon and then she could have both seen and heard because the demon operates through psychophysical neurology. Only a called prophet can draw back the veil and see mysteries and hear God speak - not a King who is become like another man as Samuel spoke - and has had the priestly Urim and Thummim removed from him along with the services of the prophets. Yet in one of his last Acts when Saul desired to speak with Samuel whilst Samuel was alive King Saul finds himself speaking amongst the prophets - and so the saying "Is Saul reckoned amongst the prophets". You can source the Scripture yourself. That may be pleasing for you.
Seeing as the witch saw is the very meaning in the derivation of the etymology of the place where the witch lived.
The Pineal gland is the general secretory neuroendocrine organ in the centre of the brain that is attributed in occult circles to be the psychophysical umbilicus. The connective brain structure that modulates the sympathetic response to demonic agency - both in the man who is a sorcerer and in the witch who is a necromancer. Shalom
The extent of the passage from 1 Samuel is 28:1-25
In reading this passage carefully we can make the following assertions:
- It is fear which first informs Saul’s actions (v5).
- The Lord had cut Saul off, and so Saul could not hear from the Lord even though the knowledge of the Lord remained with him (v6).
- Despite the fact that Saul himself had commanded all mediums and necromancers removed from the land (v9) in realising that God was not going to speak to him, he knew that a necromancer would be able to help him communicate with Samuel in death. (v7)
- In defiance of his own commandment, he was obliged to disguise himself so that he would not be recognised (v8)
- Then necromancer identifies that her concern is with her own life with regard to the King (Saul) and was not in recognition of God (v9).
- Saul himself reaffirms his disregard for the commandments of God and shows his spiritual arrogance when he considers setting aside his own punishment as more important than the consequences of disobeying God with regard to consulting with death (v10).
- Saul asks the necromancer to bring up Samuel from the dead (v11).
- The necromancer cries out in fear when she sees Samuel (v12). In the Hebrew this type of crying out is a cry to God Himself, such was the effect of seeing Samuel. At the same time seeing Samuel causes her to realise that if God had permitted this thing, then the only person who could have asked with authority was the king of Israel. Thus she says “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.”
- Once again Saul reassures the necromancer with regard to his own authority as king of Israel, and then asks “what do you see? (v13). The necromancer could see Samuel. Saul could not see Samuel. Her reply is “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” The word divine (Elohim) is the same in meaning which the Lord Jesus spoke to the Jews when He said “If he called them gods (theos) unto whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:35-36).
- Because Saul cannot see Samuel he asks “What is his form?” (v14). Having established that the necromancer has indeed brought up Samuel, Saul bowed with his face to the ground.
- Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” (v15).
Narrative to First:
Narrative:
Samuel does not speak to the necromancer, in fact later on it is clear that she cannot hear Samuel speaking. She can see him, but Saul cannot see. Saul can hear Samuel, but the necromancer cannot hear Samuel’s words. Samuel does not even acknowledge the necromancer, not even indirectly. Samuel knows that it takes more than a third eye to bring the dead up, it takes authority as well. And this was the very effect on the necromancer herself. She knew that she was able to see but she also knew that she had no authority of her own, and therefore no true power. Hence having realised that Samuel was indeed come up from the dead, she knew that the man who had asked her was no less a person than the king of Israel. Nothing good comes out of this wrong exercise of authority by Saul. He is essentially rebuked by Samuel and told that the very next day he would be dead. To which Saul becomes so exhausted emotionally that he collapses onto his face. What follows (vv21-25) is a strange mixture of self-preservation and compassion on the part of the necromancer. In finality, although there is no evidence that she took payment for her efforts, it is clear that this event cost her a fatted calf. Perhaps she was celebrating having escaped with her life having witnessed righteous Samuel come up from the dead.
The next day Saul went up into battle, and in desperation of his wounds committed suicide on the battlefield.
Second:
The etymology of the term
The name Endo’r or En’Dor comes from two Hebrew words meaning spring or fountain and dwelling. Ordinarily, therefore, En’Dor would mean the dwelling by the spring or the fountain of the ancient dwelling.
The Hebrew says ְעֵ֥ין דּֽוֹרבּ Eyn-Doʾr, translated Endor. The various roots of these two words seem somewhat strange at first glance but will make a great deal of sense if they are properly exegeted. The root words mean eye - well - surface - appearance - spring and the second word means generation.
Therefore:
Eyn eye; well; surface; appearance; spring. Doʾr generation past present and future.
There are eight specific uses of ְעֵ֥יןבּ (Noun), one of which is 1 Samuel 28:7. .עֵינֶ֔יָ There are also many conjugations of the root, one of which is “And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand, the Lord brought you out of Egypt” Exodus 13:9.
The expression “on your forehead” contains the Hebrew Eyn, and a literal meaning would be between the eyes. The Hebrew is ֵָ֣בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑יךָ in verse nine, and the same expression is repeated in verse sixteen as ָעַל־יָ֣דְכָ֔ה וּלְטוֹטָפֹ֖ת בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑י where we read “So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:16. In verse nine we read the explanation for why this is commanded.֥ It is so “the law of the Lord may be in your mouth .
Narrative to Second
The distinction that needs to be made to understand the meaning of necromancy as demonstrated by the witch of En'Dor is simply to understand that the instrument she is using to practise her necromancy is the same neurophysiology of the brain structure the priests were warned to guard [between the eyes] by their obedience to Exodus 13:16. The precept is the relationship between spoken utterance and hearing. In short it is characteristically the Shema Yisrael. It is speech and hearing - and that hearing must first be planted in the mind in obedience before it can be spoken - but it also has to be a guard to the relationship between the natural mind and the obedient mind as a visible reminder. If this incident with King Saul had not been a matter of authority (is Saul now numbered amongst the prophets is the exclamation) and "you shall be changed into a different man" [Samuel commanding Saul to obey God's choosing him to be King] - then Samuel could not have become available to his hearing.
As to his hearing he could hear because the means by which he was asking was as a King not as a necromancer and so he was not using his mind to open the veil of hearing - rather exercising prophetic authority as a King of Israel. Had the witch carried this same exercise on behalf of another man than a King Saul she would have been visited by a demon and then she could have both seen and heard because the demon operates through psychophysical neurology. Only a called prophet can draw back the veil and see mysteries and hear God speak - not a King who is become like another man as Samuel spoke - and has had the priestly Urim and Thummim removed from him along with the services of the prophets. Yet in one of his last Acts when Saul desired to speak with Samuel whilst Samuel was alive King Saul finds himself speaking amongst the prophets - and so the saying "Is Saul reckoned amongst the prophets". You can source the Scripture yourself. That may be pleasing for you.
Seeing as the witch saw is the very meaning in the derivation of the etymology of the place where the witch lived.
The Pineal gland is the general secretory neuroendocrine organ in the centre of the brain that is attributed in occult circles to be the psychophysical umbilicus. The connective brain structure that modulates the sympathetic response to demonic agency - both in the man who is a sorcerer and in the witch who is a necromancer. Shalom
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If you don't know that, you'd be among the mob that yelling - "CRUCIFY HIM!" and "WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR!" If you think being ignorant is a bliss, that's your choice, you don't get to tell anybody else to be willingly ignorant as you.
"YOU (king Nebuchadnezzar) are this head of gold," Daniel 2:38, and after that are the other empires, namely Medo-persia, Greece, Rome and the final Antichrist global empire. That's the word of God and I tend to trust Him.
Regarding the 144000, I don't have any better knowledge about who each induvidual is than you do, but my point laid out in the OP is very simple, that they are NOT 144,000 Jewish men from modern day Israel.
"YOU (king Nebuchadnezzar) are this head of gold," Daniel 2:38, and after that are the other empires, namely Medo-persia, Greece, Rome and the final Antichrist global empire. That's the word of God and I tend to trust Him.
Regarding the 144000, I don't have any better knowledge about who each induvidual is than you do, but my point laid out in the OP is very simple, that they are NOT 144,000 Jewish men from modern day Israel.
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Who said He'll die again? "Oh death, where is your sting? Oh Hades, where is your victory?" He has risen from the grave, He shall live forevermore. All I've pointed out is that at that moment He still had 40 days to linger on the earth, and He clearly told Mary Magdalene - and us, "don't CLING to me, for I have not ascended to the Father YET." So whether that was a glorified body or not, that wasn't the final form, and maybe we shouldn't take that as though it was.
There's no proof that the rest of his body wasn't, but it could be - underneath his clothes.
There's no proof that the rest of his body wasn't, but it could be - underneath his clothes.
I began the evening thinking of being the smarty pants and posting "I'm more valuable than many sparrows" in the What Denomination Are You thread, but I didn't. However, I did look up the reference in Matthew 10 which came after v.28, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
And this proved not to be as unfruitful as it might have initially seemed after I went on surfing other threads as it gives me something of value to contribute here.
Apparently, many seem to be misconstruing soul with spirit, i.e. calling the "soulish body" (my description) a "spiritual body." I believe this might be where the error in understanding is introduced.
And this proved not to be as unfruitful as it might have initially seemed after I went on surfing other threads as it gives me something of value to contribute here.
Apparently, many seem to be misconstruing soul with spirit, i.e. calling the "soulish body" (my description) a "spiritual body." I believe this might be where the error in understanding is introduced.
Just because you are unable to connect the dots does not mean that what I am saying contradicts what Christ says. Many (like you) fail to see that the Lord Jesus Christ was not giving us every detail when He spoke. He was leaving a great deal to the apostles (particularly Paul) to further explain His teachings. And the Bible is very clear that the Resurrection/Rapture is one event.
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