An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

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Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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You see, my point is simple, the purpose of this thread is to debunk a myth that those are 144,000 pious Jewish saints.
All one has to do is read Revelation 7 and 14 in their plain literal sense to see that you are the one creating your own myth.

Not sure what your agenda is but God has already made is plain and clear that 144,000 redeemed ISRAELITES -- 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes -- will be redeemed from the earth and taken to Heaven to be in the presence of the throne of God. If you think this is a myth then you are calling God a liar. No one knows exactly how this prophecy will be fulfilled, but that does not give you the right to call it a "myth" (unless you hate the idea of Jews actually being saved by the grace of God).

I believe that this group of 144,000 is simply a microcosm (and prefiguring) of redeemed and restored Israel after the Second Coming of Christ. Paul says in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel shall be saved". Since we know that only a believing remnant of Israel shall be saved, the "all Israel" refers to all twelve tribes (as noted in the Abrahamic Covenant) and seen in Ezekiel 48.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion [Jerusalem] the Deliverer [the Lord Jesus Christ] , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [Israel or the Jews]: (Rom 11:26)
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. (Ps 53:6)

There are many people who hold to Replacement Theology -- that the Church has replaced Israel. But in the eyes of God that is not true. God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church, and also for redeemed and restored Israel (not the present secular nation-state of Israel but worldwide Jewry).
 
Feb 24, 2022
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All one has to do is read Revelation 7 and 14 in their plain literal sense to see that you are the one creating your own myth.

Not sure what your agenda is but God has already made is plain and clear that 144,000 redeemed ISRAELITES -- 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes -- will be redeemed from the earth and taken to Heaven to be in the presence of the throne of God. If you think this is a myth then you are calling God a liar. No one knows exactly how this prophecy will be fulfilled, but that does not give you the right to call it a "myth" (unless you hate the idea of Jews actually being saved by the grace of God).

I believe that this group of 144,000 is simply a microcosm (and prefiguring) of redeemed and restored Israel after the Second Coming of Christ. Paul says in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel shall be saved". Since we know that only a believing remnant of Israel shall be saved, the "all Israel" refers to all twelve tribes (as noted in the Abrahamic Covenant) and seen in Ezekiel 48.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion [Jerusalem] the Deliverer [the Lord Jesus Christ] , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [Israel or the Jews]: (Rom 11:26)
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. (Ps 53:6)

There are many people who hold to Replacement Theology -- that the Church has replaced Israel. But in the eyes of God that is not true. God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church, and also for redeemed and restored Israel (not the present secular nation-state of Israel but worldwide Jewry).
All Jews are Israelites, but NOT all Israelites are Jews. The ten northern tribes were dispersed and assimilated into all nations on earth, and even before that, none of them was a "Jew" to begin with, only a citizen of the sourthern kingdom of Judah was considered a Jew, the name 'Jew" originated from the tribe of Judah; however, those 144,000 are from ALL TWELVE tribes, no matter how this will be fulfilled in the future, they'll rise from all nations. There's "commonwealth of Israel" and "lost house of Israel", but there's no such a thing called "worldwide jewry", you made that up and you're perpatuating a myth.
 
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Can you explain why Revelation also describes the lake of fire as the "second death"? What does that refer to?
The 'saved' die and rise once and upon that first rising receive their immortality. Upon them the 2nd death has no effect as they are immortal. They rule and reign with Christ for the Millennium.

The UNSAVED die and 'rise' but they DON'T RECEIVE their immortality. They will be RULED AND REIGNED OVER. These are 'the nations' . At the end of the 1000 years, Satan will be loosed. At the end of this short season, they will have either CHOSEN life by choosing GODs way or they will follow after Satan and will die, be blotted out, the lake of fire, the 2nd death.
 
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Huh??! Why am I having to keep putting out these fires? I've NEVER said anything about anyone rising twice? Seems you are having trouble reading my posts.

If you think I have either said or intimated that people will rise twice, please please guide me to the post # at least.
I didn't say you said it, I am trying to figure out how you see coming back for resurrection works.


FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND you believe when we die our 'body' goes into the ground while WE our spirit/soul RISE TO HEAVEN, Then WE our spirit/soul return and OUR BODY RISES IN RESURRECTION.

To ME, that is 2 risings. To be clear, I am having NO TROUBLE reading your posts I AM HAVING TROUBLE FOLLOWING YOUR CONCEPTS. It is hard for me to understand how I read 'it is sown, it is raised' as 'it is sown it is raised' WHILE you to read it as 'it is sown, part of it is raised, the part comes back and the other part is raised'. THERE IN lies my problem.
 
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The "rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers who will "rise" to attend the GWT judgment, which will be after the millennium.
The 'rest of the dead' to ME are 'the dead who rise' when Christ returns.

I believe the SAVED return WITH Christ, while the UNSAVED WAIT for Christs return.

Not everyone, while they 'lived' their EARTH TIME, got to hear the words of God and so died HAVING NEVER RECEIVED GODS TRUTH and so died 'UNSAVED/spiritually dead' THESE 'dead/spiritually dead' RISE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS for the 1000 year Millennium in which they will be taught GODS WORD as they are 'ruled and reigned over' by the SAVED.

What effects does rising from the dead but NOT RECEIVING IMMORTALITY MEAN?

Since CHRIST will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords there is no 'coming to faith' because CHRIST IS SEEN AS WHO HE IS. Since they cant come to faith EVER for the entire 1000 years, there is only one way for them to be PROVED (same as all of the SAVED were) and that is to go through a period of tribulation in which THEY make a choice. If they follow Satan then it is to a 2nd death. If they don't 'take his mark', then when JUDGMENT COMES THEY WILL FIND THEIR NAME IN THE BOOK OF LIFE and at that time GO FROM BEING SPIRITUALLY DEAD TO ALIVE AND IMMORTAL becoming just like all the saved.

And then heaven and earth pass and the NEW BEGINS. THE PAST REMEMBERED NO MORE.

AND then GODS WORD WILL Start of with SOMETHING more LIKE THIS...

IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH...AND THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE CREATED ANEW.

AND WE WILL CONTINUE ON...eternal.
 
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I didn't say you said it, I am trying to figure out how you see coming back for resurrection works.


FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND you believe when we die our 'body' goes into the ground while WE our spirit/soul RISE TO HEAVEN, Then WE our spirit/soul return and OUR BODY RISES IN RESURRECTION.

To ME, that is 2 risings. To be clear, I am having NO TROUBLE reading your posts I AM HAVING TROUBLE FOLLOWING YOUR CONCEPTS. It is hard for me to understand how I read 'it is sown, it is raised' as 'it is sown it is raised' WHILE you to read it as 'it is sown, part of it is raised, the part comes back and the other part is raised'. THERE IN lies my problem.
Just stick by this simple principle: Believers live twice, die once; Unbelievers live once, die TWICE. Both believers and unbelievers will have their souls released upon death, I wouldn't call that a "rising".
 
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First:

The extent of the passage from 1 Samuel is 28:1-25

In reading this passage carefully we can make the following assertions:

  1. It is fear which first informs Saul’s actions (v5).
  2. The Lord had cut Saul off, and so Saul could not hear from the Lord even though the knowledge of the Lord remained with him (v6).
  3. Despite the fact that Saul himself had commanded all mediums and necromancers removed from the land (v9) in realising that God was not going to speak to him, he knew that a necromancer would be able to help him communicate with Samuel in death. (v7)
  4. In defiance of his own commandment, he was obliged to disguise himself so that he would not be recognised (v8)
  5. Then necromancer identifies that her concern is with her own life with regard to the King (Saul) and was not in recognition of God (v9).
  6. Saul himself reaffirms his disregard for the commandments of God and shows his spiritual arrogance when he considers setting aside his own punishment as more important than the consequences of disobeying God with regard to consulting with death (v10).
  7. Saul asks the necromancer to bring up Samuel from the dead (v11).
  8. The necromancer cries out in fear when she sees Samuel (v12). In the Hebrew this type of crying out is a cry to God Himself, such was the effect of seeing Samuel. At the same time seeing Samuel causes her to realise that if God had permitted this thing, then the only person who could have asked with authority was the king of Israel. Thus she says “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.”
  9. Once again Saul reassures the necromancer with regard to his own authority as king of Israel, and then asks “what do you see? (v13). The necromancer could see Samuel. Saul could not see Samuel. Her reply is “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” The word divine (Elohim) is the same in meaning which the Lord Jesus spoke to the Jews when He said “If he called them gods (theos) unto whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:35-36).
  10. Because Saul cannot see Samuel he asks “What is his form?” (v14). Having established that the necromancer has indeed brought up Samuel, Saul bowed with his face to the ground.
  11. Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” (v15).

Narrative to First:

Narrative:

Samuel does not speak to the necromancer, in fact later on it is clear that she cannot hear Samuel speaking. She can see him, but Saul cannot see. Saul can hear Samuel, but the necromancer cannot hear Samuel’s words. Samuel does not even acknowledge the necromancer, not even indirectly. Samuel knows that it takes more than a third eye to bring the dead up, it takes authority as well. And this was the very effect on the necromancer herself. She knew that she was able to see but she also knew that she had no authority of her own, and therefore no true power. Hence having realised that Samuel was indeed come up from the dead, she knew that the man who had asked her was no less a person than the king of Israel. Nothing good comes out of this wrong exercise of authority by Saul. He is essentially rebuked by Samuel and told that the very next day he would be dead. To which Saul becomes so exhausted emotionally that he collapses onto his face. What follows (vv21-25) is a strange mixture of self-preservation and compassion on the part of the necromancer. In finality, although there is no evidence that she took payment for her efforts, it is clear that this event cost her a fatted calf. Perhaps she was celebrating having escaped with her life having witnessed righteous Samuel come up from the dead.

The next day Saul went up into battle, and in desperation of his wounds committed suicide on the battlefield.


Second:

The etymology of the term

The name Endo’r or En’Dor comes from two Hebrew words meaning spring or fountain and dwelling. Ordinarily, therefore, En’Dor would mean the dwelling by the spring or the fountain of the ancient dwelling.

The Hebrew says ְעֵ֥ין דּֽוֹרבּ Eyn-Doʾr, translated Endor. The various roots of these two words seem somewhat strange at first glance but will make a great deal of sense if they are properly exegeted. The root words mean eye - well - surface - appearance - spring and the second word means generation.

Therefore:

Eyn eye; well; surface; appearance; spring. Doʾr generation past present and future.

There are eight specific uses of ְעֵ֥יןבּ (Noun), one of which is 1 Samuel 28:7. .עֵינֶ֔יָ There are also many conjugations of the root, one of which is “And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand, the Lord brought you out of Egypt” Exodus 13:9.

The expression “on your forehead” contains the Hebrew Eyn, and a literal meaning would be between the eyes. The Hebrew is ֵָ֣בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑יךָ in verse nine, and the same expression is repeated in verse sixteen as ָעַל־יָ֣דְכָ֔ה וּלְטוֹטָפֹ֖ת בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑י where we read “So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:16. In verse nine we read the explanation for why this is commanded.֥ It is so “the law of the Lord may be in your mouth .

Narrative to Second

The distinction that needs to be made to understand the meaning of necromancy as demonstrated by the witch of En'Dor is simply to understand that the instrument she is using to practise her necromancy is the same neurophysiology of the brain structure the priests were warned to guard [between the eyes] by their obedience to Exodus 13:16. The precept is the relationship between spoken utterance and hearing. In short it is characteristically the Shema Yisrael. It is speech and hearing - and that hearing must first be planted in the mind in obedience before it can be spoken - but it also has to be a guard to the relationship between the natural mind and the obedient mind as a visible reminder. If this incident with King Saul had not been a matter of authority (is Saul now numbered amongst the prophets is the exclamation) and "you shall be changed into a different man" [Samuel commanding Saul to obey God's choosing him to be King] - then Samuel could not have become available to his hearing.

As to his hearing he could hear because the means by which he was asking was as a King not as a necromancer and so he was not using his mind to open the veil of hearing - rather exercising prophetic authority as a King of Israel. Had the witch carried this same exercise on behalf of another man than a King Saul she would have been visited by a demon and then she could have both seen and heard because the demon operates through psychophysical neurology. Only a called prophet can draw back the veil and see mysteries and hear God speak - not a King who is become like another man as Samuel spoke - and has had the priestly Urim and Thummim removed from him along with the services of the prophets. Yet in one of his last Acts when Saul desired to speak with Samuel whilst Samuel was alive King Saul finds himself speaking amongst the prophets - and so the saying "Is Saul reckoned amongst the prophets". You can source the Scripture yourself. That may be pleasing for you.

Seeing as the witch saw is the very meaning in the derivation of the etymology of the place where the witch lived.

The Pineal gland is the general secretory neuroendocrine organ in the centre of the brain that is attributed in occult circles to be the psychophysical umbilicus. The connective brain structure that modulates the sympathetic response to demonic agency - both in the man who is a sorcerer and in the witch who is a necromancer. Shalom

Wow. After many tries, only the unvarnished truth will do, my ignorance of the words and works of God are sometimes set forth so clearly it feels like a punch in the nose. I praise the Lord and I thank you for sharing.
 
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Just because you are unable to connect the dots does not mean that what I am saying contradicts what Christ says. Many (like you) fail to see that the Lord Jesus Christ was not giving us every detail when He spoke. He was leaving a great deal to the apostles (particularly Paul) to further explain His teachings. And the Bible is very clear that the Resurrection/Rapture is one event.
Which is exactly what I believe. I don't believe in stages. Christ is returning as King of Kings and Lord of Lords to end this 'age' and begin a brand new day and at that point resurrecting the dead needs to take place and the alive and remaining needs to happen for the Millennium to begin as Satan is going to be bound.

We can't have all the alive and remaining changed at any point before that because once all the alive and remaining are changed, THERE ARE NO MORE ALIVE AND REMAINING LEFT TO BE CHANGED which IS REQUIRED for those who endure to the end so it can only come at the end.
 
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Just stick by this simple principle: Believers live twice, die once; Unbelievers live once, die TWICE. Both believers and unbelievers will have their souls released upon death, I wouldn't call that a "rising".
There is something about that that I can't quite put my finger on at the moment and will have to wait till it comes to me...

But if GOD GIVETH IT A BODY, then how can anyone even hint at 'no body' for a time?

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God GIVETH IT A BODY as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I don't understand how these things can be changed.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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If you don't know that, you'd be among the mob that yelling - "CRUCIFY HIM!" and "WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR!" If you think being ignorant is a bliss, that's your choice, you don't get to tell anybody else to be willingly ignorant as you.
Actually. Since I would interpret prophecy literally. I would recognize jesus as messiah, Because I would have seen him literally fulfill the prophecies concerning him. I may be like Peter and the rest and not fully understand. But like Peter and the rest, I would understand he is the one who could give eternal life.

Now you, who spiritualizes and allegorized prophecy. You would have had an issue.


"YOU (king Nebuchadnezzar) are this head of gold," Daniel 2:38, and after that are the other empires, namely Medo-persia, Greece, Rome and the final Antichrist global empire. That's the word of God and I tend to trust Him.
Which is exactly what I said. He used a symbol to represent a literal person, kingdom or event, Which is different than a parable, which uses a symbol to represent a spiritual truth, not a literal event or person.

Regarding the 144000, I don't have any better knowledge about who each induvidual is than you do, but my point laid out in the OP is very simple, that they are NOT 144,000 Jewish men from modern day Israel.
So you do not know who they are, but you claim you know who they are not.

You do not know if they are people from today in israel any more than anyone else does. The final period could start next month. Then who would these 144000 be in the next 4 years?

Guess what, they must be from modern day Israel..

and PS. I never said they were from modern day Israel. I said they would be from the liniage of Jacob/Israel..
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
OK, you are welcome to your opinion. But Acts 23:26 says that He was "the first to rise from the dead" and we know that while He walked on earth after the resurrection, His body wasn't mortal. He destroyed death. That means He couldn't die again. That proves His body was glorified.
Who said He'll die again?
Huh? I said He couldn't die again. No one said He would.

"Oh death, where is your sting? Oh Hades, where is your victory?" He has risen from the grave, He shall live forevermore. All I've pointed out is that at that moment He still had 40 days to linger on the earth, and He clearly told Mary Magdalene - and us, "don't CLING to me, for I have not ascended to the Father YET." So whether that was a glorified body or not, that wasn't the final form, and maybe we shouldn't take that as though it was.
What do you know about a "final form"? Where does the Bible make any such indication?

There's no proof that the rest of his body wasn't, but it could be - underneath his clothes.
So let's not speculate on what the Bible doesn't say, ok?
 
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oh yeah.
The ole fg "prove a negative".
How come you don't realize that what you are pointing out REFUTES your claim?

You CAN'T prove a negative. The "negative" is Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. It is a negative because it isn't going to happen.

So you are right that you can't "prove a negative'.

And that has been my point all along. You pretribbers claim that Jesus WILL take glorified believers to heaven, in what you call "the rapture". But you can't prove it. Exactly.

Yes fg show us one verse where his entire body did not shine.
Why would I need to? Does the Bible address this?

If not (and it doesn't), there is no need to try to prove anything beyond what the Bible says.

One verse!!!
Show us.
You cant.
Wow.
Not even trying. Who cares? You're just grasping at straws. You claim there will be a glorified trip to heaven but the Bible doesn't mention anything about it.

So, your WHOLE "evidence" is on innuendo and presumption. Right.

It would be just a lot easier to believe what the Bible does say.

1. There will be ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE resurrection of the unsaved. Acts 24:15 John 5:28,29
2. The FIRST resurrection is of the saved. Rev 20:5
3. Therefore, the SECOND resurrection is of the unsaved. Rev 20:5
4. The FIRST resurrection follows the Tribulation and will be at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5

These 8 verses are very clear. They don't require "interpretation" because they are plainly worded so anyone can read and understand them.

You believe what the Bible doesn't say.

I believe what the Bible does say.

That's the difference between us.
 
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Just because you are unable to connect the dots does not mean that what I am saying contradicts what Christ says. Many (like you) fail to see that the Lord Jesus Christ was not giving us every detail when He spoke. He was leaving a great deal to the apostles (particularly Paul) to further explain His teachings. And the Bible is very clear that the Resurrection/Rapture is one event.
OK, let's connect the dots. Are you able to?


1. There will be ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE resurrection of the unsaved. Acts 24:15 John 5:28,29
2. The FIRST resurrection is of the saved. Rev 20:5
3. Therefore, the SECOND resurrection is of the unsaved. Rev 20:5
4. The FIRST resurrection follows the Tribulation and will be at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5

This is straightforward Scripture.

If you are able to connect these "dots", you will realize that there can be NO pretrib resurrection. Must less a glorified trip to heaven.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Can you explain why Revelation also describes the lake of fire as the "second death"? What does that refer to?
The 'saved' die and rise once and upon that first rising receive their immortality. Upon them the 2nd death has no effect as they are immortal. They rule and reign with Christ for the Millennium.

The UNSAVED die and 'rise' but they DON'T RECEIVE their immortality. They will be RULED AND REIGNED OVER. These are 'the nations' . At the end of the 1000 years, Satan will be loosed. At the end of this short season, they will have either CHOSEN life by choosing GODs way or they will follow after Satan and will die, be blotted out, the lake of fire, the 2nd death.
nope. The second death refers to the fact that the unsaved will be resurrected in their old mortal body to attend the GWT judgment. After which, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

Where their mortal physical body that was resurrected WILL DIE AGAIN. Real simple.

I once heard this:

A person can either be born once and die twice, or be born twice and die once.

I used to think the "die twice included once physically and once spiritually. But that is incorrect. All humans are born spiritually dead, so they can't die spiritually again.

So, unbelievers actually will die physically twice. When their mortal bodies enter the lake of fire, that body will DIE again.

That is why the lake of fire is also called the second death. It's physical, not spiritual.
 
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I didn't say you said it, I am trying to figure out how you see coming back for resurrection works.
Don't bother trying to figure it out. The Bible simply says that people will. God is all powerful and can do all things.

FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND you believe when we die our 'body' goes into the ground while WE our spirit/soul RISE TO HEAVEN, Then WE our spirit/soul return and OUR BODY RISES IN RESURRECTION.
I believe that from what the Bible says.

To ME, that is 2 risings.
When a saved person dies, yes, their soul/spirit goes to heaven. I think the confusion is your saying "rises to heaven". That's NOT a resurrection.

To be clear, I am having NO TROUBLE reading your posts I AM HAVING TROUBLE FOLLOWING YOUR CONCEPTS.
If you let go of the word "rising", there should be no trouble.

It is hard for me to understand how I read 'it is sown, it is raised' as 'it is sown it is raised' WHILE you to read it as 'it is sown, part of it is raised, the part comes back and the other part is raised'. THERE IN lies my problem.
The way I understand "it is sown, it is raised" is referring to two different things.

To be sown is to be born physically. To be raised is the glorified resurrection. That was the context of 1 Cor 15.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
The "rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers who will "rise" to attend the GWT judgment, which will be after the millennium.
The 'rest of the dead' to ME are 'the dead who rise' when Christ returns.
By the time we get to Rev 20:5 Christ has ALREADY RETURNED. At the Second Advent. The Bible clearly teaches there are two advents of Christ. As a baby to become the suffering servant and savior, and as king of kings. Jesus comes back at the Second Advent to "rule the nations with a rod of iron" during the Millennium. So at the end of the Millennial reign, the ONLY resurrection that hasn't yet occurred is the resurrection of the "unrighteous" or unsaved. Acts 24:15

I believe the SAVED return WITH Christ, while the UNSAVED WAIT for Christs return.
All dead saved will come back with Christ at the Second Advent for their glorified bodies. All dead unsaved await in the place of torment in Hades for their resurrection to appear before the GWT judgment, which follows the Millennium.

Not everyone, while they 'lived' their EARTH TIME, got to hear the words of God and so died HAVING NEVER RECEIVED GODS TRUTH and so died 'UNSAVED/spiritually dead' THESE 'dead/spiritually dead' RISE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS for the 1000 year Millennium in which they will be taught GODS WORD as they are 'ruled and reigned over' by the SAVED.
The Bible gives no indication that there will be anyone saved durinh the Millennium. In fact, since 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly that all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", proves that that all believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent. No more resurrections for the saved.

Further, to live with God for eternity, one must have God's life, which is eternal life. So no mortals will be able to live on the new earth.

What effects does rising from the dead but NOT RECEIVING IMMORTALITY MEAN?
It means all unbelievers will once again be joined to their mortal bodies, that God raises from the graves, where they will appear before the GWT judgment. When the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, their physical bodies will DIE ONCE MORE, which is why John also describes the lake of fire as the SECOND death. He was referring to their bodies.
 
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There is something about that that I can't quite put my finger on at the moment and will have to wait till it comes to me...

But if GOD GIVETH IT A BODY, then how can anyone even hint at 'no body' for a time?
We just can't second guess God and His plan. He didn't explain what "souls under the altar" mean or look like. So we shouldn't fret over it.
 
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Actually. Since I would interpret prophecy literally. I would recognize jesus as messiah, Because I would have seen him literally fulfill the prophecies concerning him. I may be like Peter and the rest and not fully understand. But like Peter and the rest, I would understand he is the one who could give eternal life.

Now you, who spiritualizes and allegorized prophecy. You would have had an issue.
Literal interpretation is not always applicable. It was specifically rebuked by Jesus in multiple instances, such as "born again", "rebuild the temple" or "flesh and blood". Bible has a set of its own code language, it interprets itself, every verse has multiple layers, it never stops at one.

Which is exactly what I said. He used a symbol to represent a literal person, kingdom or event, Which is different than a parable, which uses a symbol to represent a spiritual truth, not a literal event or person.
Parables also have prophetic significance. Jesus made parables about harvest, (grapes in) vineyard, fig tree and wedding, and all of these appeared in John's vision in Revelation. You think that's a coincidence? I think not.

So you do not know who they are, but you claim you know who they are not.

You do not know if they are people from today in israel any more than anyone else does. The final period could start next month. Then who would these 144000 be in the next 4 years?

Guess what, they must be from modern day Israel..

and PS. I never said they were from modern day Israel. I said they would be from the liniage of Jacob/Israel..
Didn't Jesus specifically warn about the "Synagogue of Satan" in Rev. 2:9 and 3:9? And only in two good churches among the seven? They would claim they are Jews, but they're not. Before 70AD there was family tree records, everyone could trace their lineage, but after that it was all gone. God let that happen on purpose. Without that record, they didn't have their own king any more, nobody can boast that they were from David or Moses or any other historical figures. There;s only one king that's Yeshua, and God will eventually bring all of them back to their real King.
 
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