And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

kleronomos · Sep 1, 2022

JUST because it is written the DEVIL is tormented, DOES NOT GIVE ANY MAN THE PERMISSION TO EXTRAPOLATE from that, that man's fate is CHANGED from the 2nd death to ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT.

The devil goes into the lake of fire for his torment WHILE souls go into the lake of fire for the 2nd death.

That is what is written.

And why the big long on going fight for truth? Because it is also written

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

like ADDING eternal TORMENT to the 2nd death

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

like taking away the 2nd death and replacing it with Eternal conscious torment

Do not be deceived.

Make sure you know EXACTLY what you are doing and saying and what it costs.

Hopefully NONE of us is under the impression we can just walk away and repent another day because everyone who comes to believe what we put forth WE will be held responsible for, as JUDGMENT BEGINS with those who teach, and make no mistake, this becomes a pulpit for those in regular participation.

Magenta · Sep 1, 2022

Runningman said:

Here’s what you need to know about God.

Psalm 136 KJV
1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he isgood: for his mercy endureth for ever.

2O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

3O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

4To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

5To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

6To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

7To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

8The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

9The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

10To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

16To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

17To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

18And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

19Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

20And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

21And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

22Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

23Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

24And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

25Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

26O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Praise the Lord

Jackson123 · Sep 1, 2022

Runningman said:

Don’t you say devil and false prophet go to eternal torment?

Runningman · Sep 1, 2022

Jackson123 said:

I have ample reason to believe the D, B, and FP will not literally be tormented day and night forever if Edom didn’t burn forever. This is called apocalyptic language; it’s intense and dramatic but not necessarily literal. Forever is not always literally forever in the Bible, though sometimes forever literally is forever.

Isaiah 34:9,10
9Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.

Compared to…

Revelation 14:11
11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The D, B, and FP could possibly be tormented day and night forever, but can you prove it’s literal? Based on the precedent in Isaiah 34 I cannot say with full confidence Revelation 20:10 is literal.

Runningman · Sep 1, 2022

So my question is, @Jackson123, can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Revelation 20:10 is literal? If you can’t prove it’s literal it shouldn’t be framed as literal. Isaiah 34:9,10 proves it could very well not be literal.

That means you should not claim to 100% know for sure the D, B, and FP go to eternal torment.

That means there isn’t a single literal eternal conscious torment verse in the entire Bible? 🤔

Magenta · Sep 1, 2022

Runningman said:

I have ample reason to believe the D, B, and FP will not literally be tormented day and night forever if Edom didn’t burn forever. This is called apocalyptic language; it’s intense and dramatic but not necessarily literal. Forever is not always literally forever in the Bible, though sometimes forever literally is forever.

Isaiah 34:9,10
9Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.

Compared to…

Revelation 14:11
11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The D, B, and FP could possibly be tormented day and night forever, but can you prove it’s literal? Based on the precedent in Isaiah 34 I cannot say with full confidence Revelation 20:10 is literal.

Forever/Eon
I have posted this numerous times, but as far as I know, none of the ECTers acknowledge any of it.

Runningman · Sep 2, 2022

Magenta said:

wow there more verses about forever not being forever than I even realized. I may have to save that picture and convert it into text if it’s okay with you.

The ECTers most likely will not acknowledge this one because they have one verse that plainly says the D, B, and FP are tormented forever, but acknowledging/validating the scriptures in that picture would actually basically either debunk their claims of it being literal or, at minimum, cause reasonable doubt in their claims.

They would have to admit, in all honesty, “we got nothing concrete to prove ECT.” That’s rather difficult to do. They don’t have to do it openly. Personally I would just go to my prayer closet and really lay what my heart is saying on God because He’s listening, cares, and loves when our words match the honesty of our hearts.

kleronomos · Sep 2, 2022

Runningman said:

wow there more verses about forever not being forever than I even realized. I may have to save that picture and convert it into text if it’s okay with you.

The ECTers most likely will not acknowledge this one because they have one verse that plainly says the D, B, and FP are tormented forever, but acknowledging/validating the scriptures in that picture would actually basically either debunk their claims of it being literal or, at minimum, cause reasonable doubt in their claims.

They would have to admit, in all honesty, “we got nothing concrete to prove ECT.” That’s rather difficult to do. They don’t have to do it openly. Personally I would just go to my prayer closet and really lay what my heart is saying on God because He’s listening, cares, and loves when our words match the honesty of our hearts.

If you do I would like a copy as it is very hard for me to read as it is.

Mem · Sep 2, 2022

Runningman said:

I'll problem be in trouble for saying this, but somebody once said something like, "God won't ask me why I wasn't more like Moses, but why I wasn't more like me."
But, understanding one must be of a certain age to participate in cc...and covering the children's ears...
So, I'm going to say what came to mind of this particular concern.

It's difficult to make oneself pull out of the harlot once that deep into her.

Magenta · Sep 2, 2022

Runningman said:

That would be fine

You may use/post any of my panels on Christian Chat

One member uses one of my panels as her screen saver...

kleronomos said:

There may even be more verses that these (here are the ones from the panel)

Space is always an issue

Sodom’s fiery judgment is ‘eternal’ (Jude 7) until God ‘will restore the fortunes of Sodom’ (Eze 16:53-55).

Israel’s ‘affliction is incurable’ (Jer 30:12) until the Lord ‘will restore health’ and heal her wounds (Jer 30:17).

The sin of Samaria ‘is incurable’ (Mic 1:9) until the Lord ‘will restore the fortunes of Samaria’ (Eze 16:53).

Ammon is to become a ‘wasteland forever’ and ‘rise no more’ (Zeph 2:9, Jer 25:27)
until the Lord will ‘restore the fortunes of the Ammonites’ (Jer 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation ‘forever’ - until the tenth generation (Deut 23:3).

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were ‘everlasting’... until they ‘were shattered’ (Hab 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an ‘everlasting’ priesthood (Exo 40:15) -
then it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon’s
Temple ‘forever’ (1 Kings 8:13), yet the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an ‘everlasting covenant’ (Lev 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant
the first was ‘done away’ and ‘abolished’ (2 Cor 3:11,13), and God ‘made the first old’ (Heb 8:13).

The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out.
It was to be ‘perpetual’ until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now
have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev 6:12-13, Heb 8:6-13).

God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah ‘forever’ until the Lord delivers
him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).

Egypt and Elam will ‘rise no more’ (Jer 25:27) until the Lord will ‘restore the
fortunes of Egypt’ (Eze 29:14) and ‘restore the fortunes of Elam’ (Jer 49:39).

Israel’s judgment lasts ‘forever’ – until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa 32:13-15).

Many Bible translations tell us that a bondslave was to serve his master ‘forever’ (Exo 21:6), that is until his death.

The words eternal, everlasting, and forever are mistranslations of the Greek word "Aion."

Magenta · Sep 2, 2022

Psalm 37:37-38

Jackson123 · Sep 2, 2022

Runningman said:

Some in revelation are figurative some are literal, for example the word satan is literal, dragon is symbol of satan.

some time Jesus talk in parable, but not always, some literal.
for eternal punishment, or torment days and nights, I believe it is literal, because He not kill the soul.
on Edomite, I believe it is talking about people of Edomite, not the city in the sense of building, why God punish building, building don’t have felling.
and yes people of Edomite still in hell till now

kleronomos · Sep 2, 2022

Magenta said:

That would be fine

You may use/post any of my panels on Christian Chat

One member uses one of my panels as her screen saver...

There may even be more verses that these (here are the ones from the panel)

Space is always an issue

Sodom’s fiery judgment is ‘eternal’ (Jude 7) until God ‘will restore the fortunes of Sodom’ (Eze 16:53-55).

Israel’s ‘affliction is incurable’ (Jer 30:12) until the Lord ‘will restore health’ and heal her wounds (Jer 30:17).

The sin of Samaria ‘is incurable’ (Mic 1:9) until the Lord ‘will restore the fortunes of Samaria’ (Eze 16:53).

Ammon is to become a ‘wasteland forever’ and ‘rise no more’ (Zeph 2:9, Jer 25:27)
until the Lord will ‘restore the fortunes of the Ammonites’ (Jer 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation ‘forever’ - until the tenth generation (Deut 23:3).

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were ‘everlasting’... until they ‘were shattered’ (Hab 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an ‘everlasting’ priesthood (Exo 40:15) -
then it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon’s
Temple ‘forever’ (1 Kings 8:13), yet the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an ‘everlasting covenant’ (Lev 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant
the first was ‘done away’ and ‘abolished’ (2 Cor 3:11,13), and God ‘made the first old’ (Heb 8:13).

The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out.
It was to be ‘perpetual’ until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now
have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev 6:12-13, Heb 8:6-13).

God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah ‘forever’ until the Lord delivers
him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).

Egypt and Elam will ‘rise no more’ (Jer 25:27) until the Lord will ‘restore the
fortunes of Egypt’ (Eze 29:14) and ‘restore the fortunes of Elam’ (Jer 49:39).

Israel’s judgment lasts ‘forever’ – until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa 32:13-15).

Many Bible translations tell us that a bondslave was to serve his master ‘forever’ (Exo 21:6), that is until his death.

The words eternal, everlasting, and forever are mistranslations of the Greek word "Aion."

Why didn't you just say so

AWESOME

Magenta · Sep 2, 2022

kleronomos said:

I was looking for something else the other day and stumbled across this similar thread from four years ago.

I thought you might benefit or glean something valuable/worthwhile from it if you care to check it out

The cultic origins of Annihilationism - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

FreeGrace2 · Sep 3, 2022

Runningman said:

Your or your poster-mate klero posted that ECT is CRUEL. Even capitalized the whole word. If it is CRUEL for even 1 person, then it is simply CRUEL.

Well, that's an easy way out. Not taking Scripture at face value. Why wouldn't Rev 20:10 not be literal? Only to ease your own sentiments.

At this point, it appears no one should really expect any reasonable answer. You haven't handled Scripture reasonably.

What is in the Bible is that those who will be cast into the LOF will be tormented day and night for eve and ever. That is a literal statement in Rev 20:10.

Since v.10 tells us the fate of those in the LOF, why would the Bible need to repeat itself in the same context again? There would be no needs.

You simply resist the truth.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 3, 2022

kleronomos said:

There is no "extrapolation". The Bible is clear that the first 3 into the LOF will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then, immediately after that i sthe GWT judgment where all the rest of unbelievers will be cast.

Unless there is clear wording that says the GWT crowd gets a different fate, there is NO REASON to assume such.

You are just opinionating now. You have no proof for your opinion. I've explained very clearly what the words "second death" refer to, bur you just ignore it. Even though the Bible tells us that unbelievers will be resurrected. That means their body.

Of course their mortal physical body will die again. There's no extrapolation in that either.

Rather, "like" NOT. What makes you think adding to or taking away involves either torment or second death? Haven't you read the last chapter of Rev? John was warning people about ignoring (taking away) parts of the book or making up stuff (adding to) the book.

The context is about reward for believers. So neither torment nor second death applies anyway.

Say that in front of a mirror.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 3, 2022

Runningman said:

Does the text say "day and night" regarding "Edom"? No, it doesn't.

Doesn't apply.

Right. So you just pick and choose what pleases YOU.

This isn't the wording from Rev 20:10. It mentions the land not being quenched (either) night or day. Then it speaks of moke.

This compares exactly to Rev 20:14, for all who will be cast into the LOF.

Here, the subject doesn't change. It is THEY who wlll be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You are just picking and choosing what you want to believe. You can't prove it's not literal. And the other verses about eternal punishment refute you.

You should have no confidence in any of your claims about ECT.

peldom10 · Sep 3, 2022

Magenta said:

That would be fine

You may use/post any of my panels on Christian Chat

One member uses one of my panels as her screen saver...

There may even be more verses that these (here are the ones from the panel)

Space is always an issue

Sodom’s fiery judgment is ‘eternal’ (Jude 7) until God ‘will restore the fortunes of Sodom’ (Eze 16:53-55).

Israel’s ‘affliction is incurable’ (Jer 30:12) until the Lord ‘will restore health’ and heal her wounds (Jer 30:17).

The sin of Samaria ‘is incurable’ (Mic 1:9) until the Lord ‘will restore the fortunes of Samaria’ (Eze 16:53).

Ammon is to become a ‘wasteland forever’ and ‘rise no more’ (Zeph 2:9, Jer 25:27)
until the Lord will ‘restore the fortunes of the Ammonites’ (Jer 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation ‘forever’ - until the tenth generation (Deut 23:3).

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were ‘everlasting’... until they ‘were shattered’ (Hab 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an ‘everlasting’ priesthood (Exo 40:15) -
then it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon’s
Temple ‘forever’ (1 Kings 8:13), yet the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an ‘everlasting covenant’ (Lev 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant
the first was ‘done away’ and ‘abolished’ (2 Cor 3:11,13), and God ‘made the first old’ (Heb 8:13).

The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out.
It was to be ‘perpetual’ until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now
have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev 6:12-13, Heb 8:6-13).

God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah ‘forever’ until the Lord delivers
him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).

Egypt and Elam will ‘rise no more’ (Jer 25:27) until the Lord will ‘restore the
fortunes of Egypt’ (Eze 29:14) and ‘restore the fortunes of Elam’ (Jer 49:39).

Israel’s judgment lasts ‘forever’ – until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa 32:13-15).

Many Bible translations tell us that a bondslave was to serve his master ‘forever’ (Exo 21:6), that is until his death.

The words eternal, everlasting, and forever are mistranslations of the Greek word "Aion."

Some folks are desperate.

kleronomos · Sep 3, 2022

peldom10 said:

Just a dropping in for a random 'insult'? How very Christian of you??

peldom10 · Sep 3, 2022

kleronomos said:

What's wrong with reminder ...not to follow stupid....is that ok?

And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

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