And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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So just going back to this, I can agree with this.
I do think the whole "annihilation" point of views stands or falls on the correct understanding of the word "destroy" "apollumi"
This you have not demonstrated as we look at the word used throughout scripture nowhere does it take on the meaning to make of no existence.
Examples:
for this my son was dead, and is revived; and he was lost, and was found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:24
Or what woman who has ten drachmas, if she loses one drachma, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? Luke 15:8
Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”
Apollumi (ἀπόλλυμι, 622), a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies “to destroy utterly”; in middle voice, “to perish.” The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of wellbeing. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7. So of persons, Matt. 2:13, “destroy”; 8:25, “perish”; 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16 (v. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Rom. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15, “are perishing”; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:10; Jas. 4:12; 2 Pet. 3:9. Cf. B, II, No. 1.
W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger and William White, Jr., vol. 2, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 164.
I do think the whole "annihilation" point of views stands or falls on the correct understanding of the word "destroy" "apollumi"
This you have not demonstrated as we look at the word used throughout scripture nowhere does it take on the meaning to make of no existence.
Examples:
for this my son was dead, and is revived; and he was lost, and was found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:24
Or what woman who has ten drachmas, if she loses one drachma, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? Luke 15:8
Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”
Apollumi (ἀπόλλυμι, 622), a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies “to destroy utterly”; in middle voice, “to perish.” The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of wellbeing. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7. So of persons, Matt. 2:13, “destroy”; 8:25, “perish”; 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16 (v. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Rom. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15, “are perishing”; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:10; Jas. 4:12; 2 Pet. 3:9. Cf. B, II, No. 1.
W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger and William White, Jr., vol. 2, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 164.
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The dead know nothing. Yes, Scripture teaches that, and then people who claim to uphold the inspired Word of God as infallible will say things like, oh, that prophet didn't know what he was talking about, or he meant something other than what he said 
Still, that is not a legitimate reason to encourage the unsaved to commit acts of evil.
And they will be called to account.
Still, that is not a legitimate reason to encourage the unsaved to commit acts of evil.
And they will be called to account.
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Who teaches this?
It is an idiom used in that time period.
You can research it if you like.
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Also @Lucy-Pevensie you repeatedly talk as if death was nothing to fear even after being shown your error.
Fear of death is identified as the cause of bondage to sin. It is not the "nothing-to-fear" you want to portray
it as, nor is it a desired end for anyone in their right mind. What you promote is not Biblically sound.
Claiming it is giving the non-believer what they want is simply promoting another lie.
Fear of death is identified as the cause of bondage to sin. It is not the "nothing-to-fear" you want to portray
it as, nor is it a desired end for anyone in their right mind. What you promote is not Biblically sound.
Claiming it is giving the non-believer what they want is simply promoting another lie.
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The dead know nothing. Yes, Scripture teaches that, and then people who claim to uphold the inspired Word of God as infallible will say things like, oh, that prophet didn't know what he was talking about, or he meant something other than what he said
Still, that is not a legitimate reason to encourage the unsaved to commit acts of evil.
And they will be called to account.
Still, that is not a legitimate reason to encourage the unsaved to commit acts of evil.
And they will be called to account.
The dead know nothing. Not with their mortal minds they don't. And that is the meaning.
If you think there is nothing beyond the realm of matter, you can apply it further.
I don't believe that's the case.
FreeGrace2 said:
Given where this verse is found in Revelation, the unbelivevers have already been dispatched to the LOF. So it doesn't refer to them.
Whoa. They are experiencing ETERNAL punishment in the LOF. That's a far cry from "no longer exist". Not to mention their torment day and night for ever and ever.
The Bible says it. I don't see the problem. Other than the emotions that seem to be getting in the way of accepting what Scripture says.
When I get to eternity and find that all unbelievers will be vaporized, I'll just shrug and say, "Huh, I didn't think so."
However, what if when you get to eternity and find that all unbelievers will be tormented for ever and ever. What will you do?
Given where this verse is found in Revelation, the unbelivevers have already been dispatched to the LOF. So it doesn't refer to them.
Whoa. They are experiencing ETERNAL punishment in the LOF. That's a far cry from "no longer exist". Not to mention their torment day and night for ever and ever.
The Bible says it. I don't see the problem. Other than the emotions that seem to be getting in the way of accepting what Scripture says.
When I get to eternity and find that all unbelievers will be vaporized, I'll just shrug and say, "Huh, I didn't think so."
However, what if when you get to eternity and find that all unbelievers will be tormented for ever and ever. What will you do?
Punishment isn't punishment unless it is experienced. Just can't seem to get that to sink into your skull.
If I had the option of being punished "in absentia", I'd obviously choose that.
Actually, it is WAY MORE of an assumption that what immediately follows about all the rest of humanities unbelievers being instantly vaporized.
I've explained that now, how many times. You don't have a point.
My view comes directly FROM Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10. Both verses are about the SAME THING. The Bible isn't wrong, or contradicted.
Neither am I.
If I had the option of being punished "in absentia", I'd obviously choose that.
Actually, it is WAY MORE of an assumption that what immediately follows about all the rest of humanities unbelievers being instantly vaporized.
I've explained that now, how many times. You don't have a point.
My view comes directly FROM Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10. Both verses are about the SAME THING. The Bible isn't wrong, or contradicted.
Neither am I.
Don't you know there is a context for that? It would refer to what's happening on the earth. Since they aren't there any more.
btw, when do you apply this verse? The moment any person dies, or when, exactly. The SDA and others who believe in soul sleep apply this verse to every person who dies. They all sleep and aren't aware of anything. Is that your view?
That verse would have to apply ONLY to the soul that is cast into the LOF if you are using this verse to support your view.
I believe what Paul teaches, but I am not sure I understand yet, still working on it.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:12-17
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:12-17
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Denying your error does not help your cause. You repeat it as if you have not been
corrected and then compound your offense by pretending it is not even an issue.
Fear of death is given as what? The reason for bondage to sin.
You cannot pretend the unsaved do not fear it.
To do so contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture.
corrected and then compound your offense by pretending it is not even an issue.
Fear of death is given as what? The reason for bondage to sin.
You cannot pretend the unsaved do not fear it.
To do so contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture.