And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I will classify this kind of thinking as "Red letter bible" thinking. I have met quite a few Christians who grew up in churches that preached almost exclusively from the 4 Gospels, and perhaps you also came from such a church.

When they do refer to Paul's epistles they always interpret them in the light of what Jesus said in the 4 Gospels. In most of their bibles, all of Jesus's words are in red, so somehow that red color takes on special significance.

It is clear why Paul would not preach about Christians needing to deny themselves and bear the cross. Paul was preaching the Gospel of grace, where Jesus finished ALL the works required for salvation on our behalf. Our role is simply to believe in his finished work, accept it, and renew our minds every day to that truth.

Take for example the ministry of reconciliation that Paul preached in 2 Cor 5.

14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one [b]according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ [c]according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [d]he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [e]He has [f]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Notice that Paul said "we recognize no one [b]according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ [c]according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer."

Jesus, in the 4 Gospels, was in the flesh, but with the new dispensation of grace, we "know him in this way no longer".

Yes, I agree with you that Paul was indeed martyred for Jesus but in my opinion, he would be horrified if he realized that you are now using this as a "criteria to see whether Jesus would accept or deny us in heaven".

For me, I don't really see that as a requirement for salvation. I would like to think that, as long as I keep renewing my mind to how much God loves me, I hope to eventually reach a stage like him when he said to his fellow believers in Philippians 1

23 [e]For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,

Paul has reached a stage when he believed in his heart that death is really a blessing for him, but he stayed alive because the church needed him. I believe when he may have actually preach the gospel of grace to the one who was suppose to execute him, because he no longer have any fear of death.

Now that is the stage I am aiming towards. :)
Requirement for salvation is believe in Jesus.

Than I think, take the cross is the manifestation of believe in Jesus.


Like Noah, believe in God, than because he believe in God he make an ark.

God told noah, there will be flood, so make an ark. If Noah do not believe there will be flood, why he make an ark.

Noah make an ark prove that he believe in What God say.

If Noah believe that there will be flood but not make an ark was he save?

No. Believe course Him make an ark and course Him save.

Believe and action is a package do not separate it.

Salvation is by faith alone but faith that saves never alone (Martin Luther)
 
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Requirement for salvation is believe in Jesus.

Than I think, take the cross is the manifestation of believe in Jesus.


Like Noah, believe in God, than because he believe in God he make an ark.

God told noah, there will be flood, so make an ark. If Noah do not believe there will be flood, why he make an ark.

Noah make an ark prove that he believe in What God say.

If Noah believe that there will be flood but not make an ark was he save?

No. Believe course Him make an ark and course Him save.

Believe and action is a package do not separate it.

Salvation is by faith alone but faith that saves never alone (Martin Luther)
If you believe that Jesus will deny you in heaven if you were to do the same to him on earth, do you consider yourself still saved in the end?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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If you believe that Jesus will deny you in heaven if you were to do the same to him on earth, do you consider yourself still saved in the end?
Jesus say if I deny Him than He will deny me in front of His dad. Jesus never lie, so it will happen.

But if I have a chance and repent like Peter, she will forgive me.

If I deny Jesus and never repent till I die, He(Jesus) will deny me and I am not save.

Remember Jesus never lie
 
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Jesus say if I deny Him than He will deny me in front of His dad. Jesus never lie, so it will happen.

But if I have a chance and repent like Peter, she will forgive me.

If I deny Jesus and never repent till I die, He(Jesus) will deny me and I am not save.

Remember Jesus never lie
In that case, then salvation to you is not a free gift from God. After u receive it, you can lose it due to your actions.
 
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So if you deny Jesus Jesus not deny you?

Than you accused Jesus is a liar
It’s hard for a red letter Christian to understand change of dispensations so let us agree to disagree. Cheers
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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To carry ones cross is to be vulnerable, to carry the blows of others and forgive them.
It is the road of self sacrifice and trouble.
Unless one walks this road, Jesus is saying simply you do not know Him.

Jesus will not deny His own, but it is clear many claim to know Him and do not, their
hearts and minds are far from Him, involved in greed and self indulgence.

One member was so annoyed at suggesting he did not know the Lord, rather than
humbling himself and coming closer to Jesus and seeking His ways, he got annoyed and
let fly. For the man to ask the question, do I have a problem would not occur though
clearly it was the case.

Arrogance and assumption while abiding in sin is what Israel did all the time and
we as believers can do, because we know so much but can end up living so little.

Does His word abide in your heart? Do you know His desires and ways of working in man?
Are His laws and His expressions to His people in righteousness and justice, something you
agree with?

Be honest with yourself. And start to work through why His justice might appear to you
to be injustice, and His expression of love might be being unloving. It is this place of honesty
we will have before Him, and there will be no place to hide.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Separating actions from justification.

God has never done this, so it is heresy to do it also.
God forgives the past because of present walking in His ways and believing in Him.
God shows no examples of sinful believers being shown acceptance except for short
periods of grace.

Sin is the enemy of the people of God, sin as defined by the Lord.
Any dispensation that allies Gods people as evil doers is heresy.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Ephesians 5:3

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
2 thessalonians 1:8-10
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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It’s hard for a red letter Christian to understand change of dispensations so let us agree to disagree. Cheers
Jesus say if you deny Me I will deny you in front of the Father.

Did Jesus lie?

Why you believe if I deny Jesus, jesus not deny me

Why you do not believe what Jesus say, is that because people,e put red letter on His word?

Friend, Jesus never lie if it is what Hesay, He will do it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Jesus say if you deny Me I will deny you in front of the Father.

Did Jesus lie?

Why you believe if I deny Jesus, jesus not deny me

Why you do not believe what Jesus say, is that because people,e put red letter on His word?

Friend, Jesus never lie if it is what Hesay, He will do it.
Matthew 10:32 - Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

In context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him everywhere they went. To paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Jesus word is trust worthy, it doesn't matter if it in red, blue or black letter.

When she say if you deny me in front of a man, I will deny you in front of My Father, He mean what He say, shy He lie to us, what gain He make to lie? He never lie.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Jesus say if you deny Me I will deny you in front of the Father.

Did Jesus lie?

Why you believe if I deny Jesus, jesus not deny me

Why you do not believe what Jesus say, is that because people,e put red letter on His word?

Friend, Jesus never lie if it is what Hesay, He will do it.
Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Do you regard Jesus as telling the truth here, in our current dispensation of Grace? Do you tell this to people who ask you the same question now?

Jesus was not lying to the lawyer, because that was the requirement under the law. But if you try to preach this same teaching now, you will be silly. You get the point or do you continue to pretend you don't understand? :)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
To bear our cross is an act of faith (grace). Not an act of labor (law). This is the only way we receive the benefits of this resurrection life by placing and maintaining our Faith exclusively in Christ and the Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus.
Can you see how you used 2 different words against each other, and simply canceled out your premise?
First you say it is not an act of labor, then turn right around and say you place (sounds like a labor to me), and then say "and MAINTAIN?" Riddle me this then? How does one "maintain" not just faith, which is one of the fruits of the Spirit, but all the rest of the fruits of the Spirit? Does this "maintaining", involve works=efforts=LABOR? :unsure::unsure::unsure: In these eyes? Labor? No matter if it's from love, or long suffering, or patience, temperance, or whatever, is STILL labor! Even thouigh, there is no "law?" against these labors? It is STILL "LABORS!"
People tend to fancy salvation as a gift, when it is more of a CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT! A person does this, and God does that! A person stops doing this? God stops doing that! It's as simple and easy, as it is hard and complex as that!
Seems as if you have more faith in Jesus, who was SENT, then in HIM, who sent Jesus!
Elstwise, you would not labor so futilely, in trying to keep your faith EXCLUSIVELY "IN" Christ!
You should read the Book of Amos, and see just how that Father "feels" about GRACE ABUSERS!

I know it may sound foreign to you. But, even Christ, as mighty as He is? Has a Father!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Do you regard Jesus as telling the truth here, in our current dispensation of Grace? Do you tell this to people who ask you the same question now?

Jesus was not lying to the lawyer, because that was the requirement under the law. But if you try to preach this same teaching now, you will be silly. You get the point or do you continue to pretend you don't understand? :)
Jesus never lie friend, if yo do love your God with all your strength you will end up with love Jesus and if you love Jesus you will save.

And if you love Jesus, you will end up with love your neighbor

Because if you love Jesus, you abide to vine and if branch abide to the vine, it will bear fruit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
So the next time you tell your kid, "I am giving you this free gift because I love you".

The kid replies, "Wow a free gift, thanks Dad! I receive it because I believe that you are a good Dad that wants me to enjoy this gift!

Will you then tell him "There are actually requirements for you to fulfill, for you to keep this free gift"

If you do, will he still think the gift is free? :)
....On the other hand? Would not a "Good" father tell his kid: "If I see you are abusing this gift, or using it in a way, or ways that it was not intended for?" "I'll TAKE it AWAY from you!" :unsure:
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Matthew 10:32 - Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

In context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him everywhere they went. To paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
Luke 9:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

I believe this verse is not only for unbeliever, if so than Stephen do need to die.

Peter deny Jesus but he repent. Bible say if you repent, you are forgiven, in this case Bible also never lie.

If this verse above only for unbeliever, this verse will pointless.

No matter what Jesus will not acknowledge Unbeliever in front of His Father, shame or not, unbeliever not save.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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....On the other hand? Would not a "Good" father tell his kid: "If I see you are abusing this gift, or using it in a way, or ways that it was not intended for?" "I'll TAKE it AWAY from you!" :unsure:
What do you make of Romans 11:29?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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....On the other hand? Would not a "Good" father tell his kid: "If I see you are abusing this gift, or using it in a way, or ways that it was not intended for?" "I'll TAKE it AWAY from you!" :unsure:
The taking away has to do with hearing God, by a work of his faith that works in us .

Our fathers can deny us .If they do not take a DNA test. The same applies to the spiritual test.

If we deny him who has begun the good work of salvation in us in unbelief (no faith) like the foolish Galatians he cannot deny he has paid the wage in full moving us from eternal damnation to eternal life. .

His grace is sufficient that he freely gives us with no cost on our behalf. If he begins he will finish the work till the end. .He as our daily bread is our daily confidence.

2 Timothy 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
What do you make of Romans 11:29?
Oh! I see! God takes His orders from Paul, or Luke, or whoever penned the book of Romans?

Genesis 6
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. :unsure:

1 Samuel 15
10 Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying,
11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night. :unsure:

Exodus 13
17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: o_O

....then, there's the parable of the talents....:unsure:

Revelation 2
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Seems the Father, and the Son have a disagreement with whoever penned Romans, doesn't it?