ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

BibleGuy · Feb 25, 2018

Hello,

Hag. 2 and Ez. 3 and Zec. 4 do nothing to disconfirm that future animal sacrifices will occur.

And why do you quote Zechariah? That very prophet DISPROVES you, where we see Jesus return to build a temple (Zec. 6) and where we see a GLOBAL future commandment to celebrate the animal-sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (Zec. 14).

You wrote: "the levitical priesthood was a temporary ministry"

My response: Oops! God said it is promised as PERMANENTLY as the day and night (Jer. 33:20-22).

You wrote: "CHRIST took back what belonged to HIM from the beginning"

My response: CHRIST will rebuild a temple (Zec. 6) and RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

You wrote: "HE as THE HIGH PREIST FOREVER offered up one sacrifice and that one sacrifice was sufficient."

My response: Indeed. And that's consistent with future animal sacrifices which continue to serve as a shadow which points to the greater substance in Christ (Col. 2:17).

You wrote: "anyone offering anything above that doesn’t know as he should know"

My response: Levitical animal sacrifices are not offered "above" the sacrifice of Christ.

Rather, they are offered as a SHADOW (Col.2 :17) which points to Christ.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 25, 2018

MHz said:

1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

1a Any prophecy that deals with the bruise to satan's head is unfulfilled.
1b The question is not about an altar or the sacrifice. The question is about what sacrifice will be acceptable and which will not. Today our sacrifice is what we say in our prayer to God. The 1,000 years runs on the same principals as the new earth runs on. The population in the 1,000 years is a static population and they are the first of man that are immprtal and sinless. Cain and Able brought tw offerings. The one that was rejected in a sinful world will be the one that is acceprable in a sinless world so the rejected sacricice will become the accepted one starting at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign. Zec:14 is a preview of how the New earth will worl only both the 12 Tribes and the Church will inhabit New Jerusalem as they assume their roles as Priests and Kings to the everr growing number of people that will make their homesoutside of the wall of New Jerusalem once the New Earth begins. The Feast of the Tabernacles will happen each year for 1,000 times.
1c The resurrection of the whole House of israel will go all the way back to the sons of Abraham. The duties of a Prtiest of God is not the same in a sinless world as it is in a sinful world. The ones that become alive at the start are students rather than teachers. Below Jesus is the 24 Elders fom the Re:4 Temple. They are the 'many Saints' that came out of the graves the same morning as Jesus did. They all ascended to that temple to be glorified, only Jesus came back and that was onlt to help the ones He baptised to get through the same 40 dat fast He went through when He was baptised by God.

2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.

2a Zec:6 and many other places prompote a temple and an altar being present during the 1,000 year reign. You will find nothing that suppors a blood sacrifice as that ended with the cross and the next 40 years of the practice was an abomonation to God and shoul any flesh be killed in the new earth it means that person is sent to the fiery lake.
2b Eze:37 defines the whold House of Israel. Able's sacrife is no longer the acceptable sacrifice. Any member of the 12 tribes can do it and they will still be raised with all the rest. A Gentile doing so gives up his place in the 1,000 year reign and is resurrected with 'the rest'instead.
3c. The activities taught to tem durin the 1,000 year Zec:14 represents will be what both groups do when they are both living inside New Jerusalem. Israel will be taught all there is to know about being Priests and the Gentile Church members will be taught all there is to know about being kings to the nations that will exist outside the walls of New Jerusalem. They arte Shepherds to a very large Flock.

3. A. Jer. 33:20-22 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Jer. 33:20-22 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

3a Nor has the punishment of the Nations in Jer:25 or the gathering of the 12 Tribes as defined in Jer:31.
3b okay
3c okay

4. A. Zec. 14 guarantees future GLOBAL participation in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (with punishment upon the nations who do not participate).
B. Therefore, global participation in sacrifice-laden feasts will occur in the future, and it will be required, and it will be good to obey, and it will be bad to disobey.

4a Feast of the tabernacles doesn't mention blood sacrifice. After the feast the Church wanders around the globe seeing how to build cities as that willbe part of their duris in the New Earth era. Cities mena the megaliths that are in ruins today rather than it is referncing all the cities we have on our maps, they will never be rebuilt. Since the Church has rain it can grow crops and the produce is what they bring to the feat.Grapes are grrown is Israel in that time so the Gentiles procide the fine flower that is a substitute of a live sacrifice if none were available. there will be no flesh in the 1,000 years that is available for sacrifice. The only other flesh that is alive is the fish in the former dead sea as stated in Eze:47.
4b Why would either group want to fall into sin. Coming tpo a feast where Jesus is the host does not sound like aburden at all, in fact it shounds like it is a celebration of sorts.

5. A. Mal. 3:1-4 guarantees that the Messiah will RESTORE the covenant with Levi, complete with sacrifices to be offered again in the future.
B. We should not oppose what the Messiah will come to restore in the forthcoming kingdom rule.

5a That book also says Eligiah will come first. He would be with Moses and Elias and the rest of the 12 Tribes that arte resurrected as soom as Jesus kills allthe existing sinners on the globe. The only wrathnthat come after that is when God sents the ramaining fallen angels to the fiery lake. The fire Jesus used sent a few fallen angels there and it only melted Satan's Babylon. The next wrath does the same to the rest on the planet and it looks like that when New Jerusalem lands on it at the end of Re:22.
The arrival is the beginning of the restoration, by the time satan is releassed Jerusalem is called 'the glorious city' and the surrounding land is called 'the campof the Saints', it is a mirror image of what that paryt of the garden would look like if sin had never entered the world.

6. A. Is. 66 guarantees future restoration of Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with new moon and Sabbath observance.
B. We should not oppose what Isaiah guarantees will occur in the future.

6a true, it also promotes the existance of a new earthn that is not yet made. The new covenant mentione in Hebrews is made with an immortal and sinless group rAther than sinful men who can die.
6b you need to evaluate all the references rather tyhan habging a complicated doctrine on a single verse from a passage that may or may not be in the proper context. That is actually a sign that a doctrine is weak and not supported by the book

7.A. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
B. That which is ready to disappear has NOT yet disappeared (from the meaning of "engoos").
C. The Old Covenant was still in force (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews) (from B).
D. The inauguration of the New Covenant does NOT entail termination of the Old Covenant (from C).
E. Old Covenant Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities are good and proper to persist into the New Covenant era (from D).

7a. Nope. The iron/clay kingdom from Da:2 hasn't even began yet.it begins when the 7th trump sounds. The 12 books listed after Daniel only detail how the transitio from taht to the 1,000 year reign happens. Even the 'latter days' from the De:4:30 prophecy is unfulfilled. The sacttering from that prophecy and Luke:21:24 happened in 70 AD.
7b any prophecy about the return is unfulfilled, any to do with the bruise to the heel from Ge:3;15 vwas fulfilled when Jesus said, 'It is finished,'just before He died on nthe cross. All two brusies are completed when He says,'It is done.;'when He pours out the 7th vialin Re16.
7c the only law from the that survived the transition is the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments are retired at the start of the 1,000 year reign.
7d I'm afraid it does as only one version of Law can esist at one toime. The Law before the 10 commandments was the one the sons of God in Ge:6 were under. That Law ceased to be the Law of the land when the last giant died in the exodus wars. that is when the 10 commandments became law. A law that exists onlt for the time it takes for Ge:3:15 to be fulfilled. That day is the day the 7th trumps sounds. The new covenant is made with an immortal and sinless people. People born in the new earth will attain taht level when they are 120 years old.
7d what do they do with their day if nobpody has any sins to confess?

8. A. Many New-Covenant-era priests were disciples of the Messiah (Ac. 6:7).
B. Priests perform sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties.
C. Priestly sacrificial/Levitical duties are acceptable in the New-Covenant-era (from A and B).

8a Okay,the last one that could do any of the 'signs following' died by 100AD
8b If it was a blood sacrifice in the temple it was an abomination mentioned in the 70th week prophecy. Killing Stephen and allowing the money-changes back were also abominations by that time. This doesn't fit in well with the reference to this specific chapter made a little earlier.

Isa:66:3:
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense,
as if he blessed an idol.
Yea,
they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

8c a sin after the 1,000 years starts will get yo a seat beside satan in nthe fiery lake. God will prevent tyhat from happenming. Removing all other flesh will prevent any blood sacrifice. God does it so no other flesh than fallen angesl gets sent to the lake. Only beings that are sinless and know about good and evil are saved from the fire hat melts the whole earth.

9. A. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21:20).
B. Torah-obedience requires sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties (when performed properly).
C. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah-obedient sacrificial/priestly/Levitical activity.
D. These disciples encouraged Paul (and Paul agreed!) to condone a vow (evidently the sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow) for the purpose of publicly affirming that Paul likewise walked orderly according to the Torah.
E. Sacrifices are, thus, affirmed as a valid ongoing New-Covenant-era practice.

9a God's book is 66 books rather than 5.

Re:22:18:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re:22:19:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

9b All of Re:12 is an expansion of Ge:3:15 if you are looking for comfirmation of what 'the book actually means.

9c You would actually try and slaughter one of the birds or beasts of the field that come to the supper Christ prepares for them when it is payback for so many of them being killed as an atonement to man's own sin. I don't see that working out for the men really. lol

9d No Apostleor Disciple ever took part in a blood sacrifice after the cross. Believer were the minority and were ignored when they spoke.

9e if NT believers cannot eat the meat that is ki9llen in a religios ritual what is the purpose of the death??

10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

10a The reference is to the 613 laws rather than the 10 Commandments.
10b Jesus introduce a modified Passover meal that excluded meat. we bare still under the old covenant as the new covenant is means for when we have a glorified body like the one Jesus has after His return for 40 days.
10c not at all

11. A. Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel (Eph. 2).
B. The covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New) are all still in force, and we Christians partake in these covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12).
C. The covenants entail Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when properly performed.
D. Thus, we Christians should condone the proper restoration and participation in the Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate.

11a That is not true
11b The prophecy in the last 3 verses of Zec:13 are the start of the passage that covers all of the next chapter. The 'little pones' start with the gentioles that God sent to peter in Acts:10. Their judgment on the day the 7th trump sounds sees 2/3 of all of them on the planet dying. The 1/3 that do not die have repented their sins and theu are joined by the gentioles included in verse Re:20:4 and when combined the qualify aqs 'the Church' Any female Gentiles that were taken captive during the exodus wars have their whole families become part of the whole House of israel.
11c Gentiles werc alway goint to be saved. The ber=ruise to the heel was first so the 12 tribes bacame the first to be gathered.

Isa:40:15:
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

11d. Not a good plan to start killing after you have been is=nstructed to stop killing as a way to please God.

12. A. Israelites will again participate in Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when they return from ALL the countries to which they have been scattered (Eze. 20:30-44).
B. This return has not yet occurred.
C. Animal sacrifices will occur in the future (from A and B).
D. We Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between YHVH and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31).
E. Thus, we are Israelites who will participate in the restoration of animal sacrifices in the future.

12a That isn't until the return, and the land of the enemy in Jer:31 is the grave rather than it being a gentile country. The verse below is referencing gentile countries though.

Eze:39:28:
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God,
which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land,
and have left none of them any more there.

12b The return is not until just after all 7 vials kill all the sinners in nthe world.
12c No they won't.
12d Israel is raised whole, the Gentilkes alive for the 1,000 years area remant of all gentikle. Gentiles will be a wholepeople at the end og Judgment Day that comes after satan is in the fiery lake.
12e Won't ever happen as there is zero support for that. What will happen is both groups who are alive according to Zec:14 will both reside in New Jerusalem in the New earth. Priests and Kings (to the nations) are as close as the get to bong one people. The is no blood sacrifice at any time after the 7th trump sounds.

Hope that is helpful.

Hello,

Thanks for engaging!

You wrote: "The Feast of the Tabernacles will happen each year for 1,000 times."

My response: And this feast is LADEN with animal sacrifices. So it appears we agree that FUTURE animal sacrifices are forthcoming.

You wrote: "The duties of a Prtiest of God is not the same in a sinless world as it is in a sinful world."

My response: Let's not assume that the Millennium is a sinless world. After all, death evidently may still occur (Is. 65:20).

You wrote: "You will find nothing that suppors a blood sacrifice as that ended with the cross and the next 40 years of the practice was an abomonation to God"

My response: No. Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices as in the days of old, as in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).

Again, Levitical sacrifices are a PERMANENT promise of God for the future (Jer. 33:20-22).

Again, Paul and four of His associates and THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers (and even animal-sacrificing priests who were disciples!) ALL condoned animal sacrifices DURING the New-Covenant-era (Ac. 21; Ac. 6).

We should imitate Paul and likewise condone (not oppose!) animal sacrifices (1 Cor. 11:1).

You wrote: "Israel will be taught all there is to know about being Priests and the Gentile Church members..."

My response: "Gentile church members" are accepted as fellow Israelite participants in the Covenants between God and Israel (Jer. 31; Eph. 2:12). Let's STOP the unbiblical claim that "Gentile Church members" are not Israelites.

You wrote: "Feast of the tabernacles doesn't mention blood sacrifice."

My response: WHAT? Of COURSE Sukkot entails an INCREDIBLY bloody period of animal sacrifices! (Nu. 29:12-39).

Let's get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "Why would either group want to fall into sin. Coming tpo a feast where Jesus is the host does not sound like aburden at all, in fact it shounds like it is a celebration of sorts."

My response: I do NOT know why. But Zechariah GUARANTEES that Egypt will NOT obey the global commandment to participate in Sukkot (Zec. 14:19) after the Lord returns. This will be the SIN OF EGYPT at that time.

You wrote: "The new covenant mentione in Hebrews is made with an immortal and sinless group rAther than sinful men who can die."

My response: We Christians PARTICIPATE in the New Covenant (Jer. 31; Heb. 8), yet we are NOT without sin (1 Jn. 1:8).

You wrote: "you need to evaluate all the references rather tyhan habging a complicated doctrine on a single verse from a passage that may or may not be in the proper context."

My response: Show me what's wrong with my interpretation, and I'll gladly change.

Until then, I have no better choice but to follow the Scriptures as I've explained.

And it's YOU who ROUTINELY set forth outlandish claims without any evidential support whatsoever.

For example, you wrote: "The 10 Commandments are retired at the start of the 1,000 year reign."

My response: Why on earth would you say such a thing?

You wrote: "what do they do with their day if nobpody has any sins to confess?"

My response: Is. 65:20 and Zec. 14:19 confirm that sin and death will occur in that FUTURE time.

Let's get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "This doesn't fit in well with the reference to this specific chapter made a little earlier."

My response: It's simple. God OPPOSES animal sacrifices (Is. 66:3) performed by people who walk in EVIL (Heb. "ra", Is. 66:4) ways.

Does God therefore oppose ALL animal sacrifices? Of course not! Is. 66:21-23 GUARANTEES their future restoration.

You wrote: "11a That is not true"

My response: SURE it is true!

ONLY Israelites partake in the New Covenant (Jer. 31).

Do Christians partake in the New Covenant? Of course!

THEREFORE, Christians are accepted as ISRAELITES, in covenant with God, participating in the COVENANTS (plural! Eph. 2:12) between God and Israel.

And what do these covenants require? Torah! (e.g., see "TORAH" in Jer. 31).

And what does Torah require? Animal sacrifices!

Let's get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "Not a good plan to start killing after you have been is=nstructed to stop killing as a way to please God."

My response: Not a good plan to OPPOSE what Jesus comes to RESTORE (i.e., Levitical sacrifices, Mal. 3:1-4) as PERMANENTLY guaranteed by God (Jer. 33:20-22).

You wrote: "12e Won't ever happen as there is zero support for that."

My response: I just gave you the support! (read above)

Ok...thanks for writing.

abcdef · Feb 25, 2018

Heb 10:3, "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year."

Heb 10:6, "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure."

Heb 10:11, "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices,which can never take away sins:

Heb 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I like BBQ's.

But it states plainly:

that it reminds God of your sins (Heb 10:3),

God has no pleasure in them (Heb 10:6),

They cannot take away your sins (Heb 10:11),

and that you are relying on works of the Law instead of God's grace from Jesus' once and for all sacrifice for sin (Heb 10:14).

BibleGuy · Feb 25, 2018

Locutus said:

Then let's hammer home the prophets (Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Mal. 3) who guarantee forthcoming animal sacrifices.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 25, 2018

MHz said:

We have a book to guide us until Jesus returns. That is the day we enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The world of today is full of death and sin.
This verse below is the time of the change and it is in our future rather than our past.

Re:11:15-19:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty
elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

Nice point.

But remember too, that our position in the forthcoming kingdom depends upon our obedience/disobedience to even the least of Torah commands (Mt. 5:19), and Torah entails animal sacrifices.

So, we should surely not oppose Torah-sanctioned animal sacrifices, lest we suffer the consequences of Mt. 5:19.

blessings...

BibleGuy · Feb 26, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hello,

You wrote: "Is this true or have you already made up your own mind and no really open to correction and instruction in righteousness?"

My response: Of course I'm open to correction. But I hope you are too!

For example, will you be corrected by the words of Jesus?

Jesus said that our Torah-obedient works of righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees (Mt. 5), and this entails obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed.

So your opposition to animal-sacrifice laws puts you on the bad side of, for example, Mt. 5:19; Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 13:41-42; etc.

(By the way, I'm only up to POST #242, here, so be patient!)

And you should be concerned for having opposed the very sacrifices which Jesus will come to RESTORE (Mal. 3:1-4) in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant which God says is as permanent as day and night (Jer. 33:20-22).

Not sure why you feel comfortable opposing the future work of Jesus and the Davidic Covenant promise of God. You should be shaking in your boots!

You wrote: "Animal sacrifices in the OLD Covenant only pointed foward to the coming of the true sacrifice for all mankind; God's dear son."

My response: No. They also point BACKWARD to the greater substance already realized in Christ. (Col. 2:17 has PRESENT TENSE, not PAST tense). Thus, the shadow function CONTINUES.

You wrote: "Once the Saviour had arrived why would there be any more need for animal sacrifices from the OLD Covenant when we are now in the NEW Covenant which Hebrews 7-13 outline?"

My response: Many reasons.

1. To fulfill the prophecy of Mal. 3:1-4.
2. To fulfill the prophecy of Dt. 30:1-8.
3. To fulfill the prophecy of Jer. 33:20-22.
4. To fulfill the prophecy of Zec. 14.
5. To fulfill the prophecy of Eze. 40-47.
6. To reinstitute a functioning shadow which continues to point to the greater substance in Christ.
7. To allow us to again obey 100% of Torah which is given to us.
8. To obey the TORAH (see "Torah" in Jer. 31) of the New Covenant. And Torah, of course, entails animal sacrifices when properly performed.
9. To obey Heb. 10:16 which states Torah should be written upon our hearts (not opposed as you oppose it by opposing animal sacrifices!)
10. To obey Heb. 8:10 which states Torah should be written upon our hearts (not opposed as you oppose it by opposing animal sacrifices!)
11. To imitate the pattern of Paul (1 Cor. 11:1) who condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21).
12. To imitate the pattern of the thousands of 1st century believers who were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21) which, of course, entails animal sacrifices.
13. To fulfill our identity as a royal priesthood (Is. 61:6; 66:21; Rev. 20:6) in which the Levitical priests among us perform their covenant duties in conjunction with the Levitical Covenant which Jesus comes to restore (Mal. 3:1-4).
14. To demonstrate our LOVE for God (Jesus quotes Dt. 6 at Mt. 22:37). And HOW should this LOVE for God be demonstrated? ANSWER: Through obedience to ALL (Heb. "kol", Dt. 6:25) God's commands. And of course, God commands animal sacrifices. So, we show our love for God (as Jesus required) by performing animal sacrifices.
15. To again restore the house of God (Is. 56:7) which Jesus AFFIRMS as proper and legitimate and good (Mt. 21:13), in which sacrifices shall again occur (Is. 56:7).
16. To continue to fulfill the Old Covenant (which did not yet pass away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Heb. 8:13), which continues to comprise many shadows which continue to point to the greater substance in Christ.

You wrote: "Your OP is the same as stating Christ sacrifice was not good enough lets go back to the OLD Covenant laws for remission of SIN where the NEW Covenant teach these were only shadows pointing to God's plan of salvation."

My response: No. My OP does NOT state that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough. You just made that up.

After all, Jesus will RESTORE those very sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4), so is Jesus WRONG to do so? Of course not!

And, the Old Covenant laws NEVER were able to take away sin (Heb. 10:11), so it's completely wrongheaded for you to suppose that restoration of animal sacrifices will be for the purpose of "remission of SIN" when those sacrifices never did (and never will) take away sin.

That was NEVER the purpose. And that will NOT be the purpose. Therefore, your accusation here is based upon a misunderstanding of the function of the animal sacrifices.

You wrote: "... the NEW Covenant teach these were only shadows pointing to God's plan of salvation"

My response: They ARE (not "WERE") shadows! PRESENT TENSE in Col. 2:17, not past tense.

You wrote: "You my friend are tredding in dangerous waters..."

My response: YOU have opposed the prophets (Dt. 30; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 3; Jer. 33)
YOU have opposed God. (Jer. 33)
YOU have opposed the pattern of Paul (Ac. 21)
YOU have opposed the pattern of Paul's four associates (Ac. 21)
YOU have opposed the pattern of THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples (Ac. 21)
YOU have opposed the teachings of Jesus (Mt. 5:19; Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 13:41-42; Mt. 23:2-3,23,34; etc.)
YOU have opposed the Torah of the covenants in which you participate (same TORAH is in both New AND Old Covenants).
YOU have opposed what Jesus will do when He returns (Mal. 3:1-4)

Seems to me, YOU should be shaking in your boots, not I!

You wrote: "...if you do not turn to Jesus as our great sacrifice for forgiveness of your SINS then you are in danger of losing your salvation."

My response: Don't be silly. I never turned away.

You wrote: "Are you open to being wrong BibleGuy? From your posting it does not seem you are looking for help from anyone and your mind is already closed."

My response: You've given no evidence to suggest that I would not embrace a better justified alternative.

Furthermore, you've given no better-justified alternative. So I surely have no good reason to embrace your position.

You wrote: "The CONTEXT in Deuteronomy 30 is the OLD COVENANT BEFORE CHRIST not the NEW COVENANT AFTER CHRIST."

My response: When did Dt. 30:1-8 occur? NEVER! Therefore it MUST be yet future, or else Moses is a false prophet.

Dt. 30:1-8 has NOT yet occurred. Therefore, it necessarily follows that Dt. 30:1-8 will be fulfilled in the FUTURE (even though the New-Covenant has already been inaugurated).

There is NOTHING in Dt. 30:1-8 that states the fulfillment of that prophecy will NOT occur after the inauguration of the New Covenant.

You wrote: "Who says that the RETURN to ISRAEL has to be PERMANANT?"

My response: Amos (9:15).

You wrote: "The covenant of the BLESSINGS and the CURSES were CONDITIONAL of Israels OBEDIENCE or DiSOBEDIENCE. Your shifting the goal posts now so to speak and adding something into scripture that is NOT there."

My response: I never added anything! I'm simply waiting for Dt. 30:1-8 to OCCUR, because it has never yet happened!

Consider this...Where does Scripture say we can IGNORE Dt. 30:1-8 if Israel disobeys? NOWHERE!

So, I shifted no goal. I simply BELIEVE the prophecy given by Moses.

Moreover, Dt. 30:1-8 does NOT state that the prophecy will be nullified if Israel disobeys! Rather, it states that Israel will RETURN (that is, after a period of disobedience) to obedience in the FUTURE (at which time ALL Israel will return to the land to obey ALL Torah).

This has not yet happened!

Therefore, you have simply (in effect) claimed that Moses is a false prophet.

Sorry, buddy. I can't go there.

You wrote: "NOWHERE in scripture does it say Israels return from CAPTIVITY in Deuteronomy 28-30 has to be permanant and that EVERY single Israelite had to return? Disagree please show the scripture that says in order for the scriptures fulfillment EVERY Israelite has to return?"

My response: Seriously? Dt. 30:1-4 plainly confirms that God will gather the Israelites from ALL NATIONS (Dt. 30:1) and from ALL PEOPLES (Dt. 30:3) where they had been scattered, even from the ends of the earth (Dt. 30:4).

OBVIOUSLY we are talking about ALL ISRAELITES here! AND, since this has NOT YET OCCURRED, it must be yet FUTURE.

You wrote: "It seems God's Word disagrees with you. How does your post adress post #102 which shows the scriptures of the captivity and return of Israel from receiving the curses for disobedience and the blessings for obedience?"

My response: Huh? Dt. 30:1-8 never occurred. You never showed that Dt. 30:1-8 occurred.

And, you keep referring to "post #102", but you must actually be referring to post #112, right?

Well, I already answered you in Posts #240, 241, 243, 244, and 250.

Perhaps you've answered all these by now. Be patient 'till I get there.

You wrote: "It is clear you are only ignoring the scriptures sent to help you now as your respense has NOT addressed the post and the scriptures in them."

My response: I'm not ignoring a thing, my friend. Can't you tell I love to answer all details? That's why it takes me so long to get through this thread!

And seriously? NOWHERE in Ezra 5:13-15 (or anywhere else in Ezra or Nehemiah) does it state that ALL Israelites returned to the land of Israel!

Thus, you've failed to show Dt. 30:1-8 is fulfilled.

Sure, the HOUSE OF JUDAH returned from Babylon to the land of Israel, but not the Israelites of the northern kingdom. They were scattered throughout the earth, and they did NOT all return to the land of Israel in Ezra 5:13-15 (or anywhere else in Ezra or Nehemiah).

So, you (wrongly) believe that the return from the Babylonian exile fulfilled Dt. 30:1-8.

Sorry, buddy. You got your history wrong.

In fact, the northern kingdom Israelites did not even go to Babylon! They had already been conquered and exiled throughout other parts of the earth, and they did NOT all return to the land of Israel after the conclusion of the Babylonian exile.

You've just got your Israelite history mixed up.

You wrote: "Goodness BibleGuy you must be trying pretty hard NOT to look at the scriptures and History. In this post however I did focus more on the history and scriptures references in relation to Israels CAPTIVITY for disobedience more so than its release from CAPTIVITY."

My response: To the contrary, YOU have got the bogus history going on. You apparently think Dt. 30:1-8 was fulfilled already, yet you've given no proof!

And Jesus was STILL seeking the lost sheep of Israel during His ministry (Mt. 15:24). Thus, they had STILL not yet returned as of the time of Jesus' ministry.

And James says the tribes were still SCATTERED (Jas. 1:1), again confirming that Dt. 30:1-8 was NOT yet fulfilled as of the time of the writing of the book of James (actually, it's the book of Jacob, but that's beside the point).

And shortly thereafter was the diaspora following the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70.

And Dt. 30:1-8 has STILL NOT YET BEEN FULFILLED, even to this day.

So, it is yet future.

You wrote: "It says nowhere in the scriptures that this needs to be a permanant return...

My response: Amos 9:15 disproves your claim. It will be permanent.

You wrote: "...and says nothing about latter days in Deuteronomy 30. You are reading something into the scriptures that it is NOT saying."

My response: Another argument from silence again! That's a fail.

And, Dt. 30:1-8 does not say that Dt. 30:1-8 will NOT be fulfilled in the future.

And, Dt. 30:1-8 MUST be fulfilled in the future (because it has not yet happened).

CONCLUSION: Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future. You've failed to prove otherwise. You've merely cited the return of the southern kingdom Israelites (i.e., the House of Judah) from the Babylonian exile, yet you've failed to discern that the northern kingdom Israelites never all returned. Thus, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future, as Jesus, James, and secular history likewise confirm.

You're using bogus history to oppose God's prophet Moses. Bad choice.

Furthermore, Jer. 33 and Zec. 14 and Mal. 3 never happened yet! So you REALLY need to repent.

You wrote: "Please if you disagree with me show me the scriptures that say Deuteronomy is talking at the "Latter days" or that the return from captivity needs to be permanant before the scriptures are to be fulfilled?"

My response: Dt. 4:27-30 confirms that the return of Dt. 30 will occur in the latter days.

And, Dt. 30:1-8 does NOT need to state "latter days" in order for it to occur in latter days! Such a requirement is unjustified.

For example, Jer. 33:20-22 does not state "latter days", but the language confirms it is a PERMANENT promise and guarantee of future Levitical sacrificial activity.

And the return to the land will be permanent (Am. 9:15).

You wrote: "Rather the covenant of the blessings and curses were based on the OBEDIENCE or DISOBEDIENCE of God's people at the time it was given and fulfilled accordingly as scripture and history shows it was."

My response: Nope. Dt. 30:1-8 has NOT yet occurred.

AND what happens when the Israelites will all return to again obey all Torah? They return to the LAND (Dt. 30:1-8).

NO Scripture (or history) shows Dt. 30:1-8 is already fulfilled.

Likewise, Am. 9:15 is yet future.

Since the return from the Babylonian exile was not permanent, Am. 9:15 was not fulfilled. Therefore, there is yet a FUTURE return of Israelites to occur, when Dt. 30:1-8 is finally fulfilled.

You wrote: "So please explain how this is applicable under the NEW Covenant once Christ has come and died to which these animal sacrifices were pointing to under the OLD Covenant?"

My response: Because the NEW COVENANT consists of TORAH (see "TORAH", Jer. 31) to be written upon our hearts so that we obey it. And what does Torah require? Animal sacrifices!

Paul and thousands of 1st-century disciples (even animal-sacrificing priests) condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21; Ac. 6). Let's imitate Paul and likewise condone animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era (1 Cor. 11:1).

And again, the shadow CONTINUES to function (Col. 2:17, present tense!)

You wrote: "The CONTEXT in Deuteronomy 30 is the OLD COVENANT BEFORE CHRIST not the NEW COVENANT AFTER CHRIST."

My response: Why assume Old Covenant and New Covenant don't coexist? I already showed that they DO coexist (Heb. 8:13), where we find that the Old Covenant is READY to disappear as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, thereby confirming that the Old Covenant and New Covenant can function SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Furthermore, Dt. 30:1-8 does NOT state that Dt. 30:1-8 will be fulfilled prior to the inauguration of the New Covenant.

You wrote: "Not at all my friend I did not oppose any of the scriptures these are in agreement with the scriptures I have been sharing with you, I am in agreement with these scriptures you have quoted."

My response: WONDERFUL! Then we AGREE Paul condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) and we should do likewise (1 Cor. 11:1).

We AGREE thousands of 1st-century disciples condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) and it is good for us to model that exemplary behavior as well.

We AGREE Jesus will return to restore Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

We AGREE animal sacrifices will be restored to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33).

We AGREE animal sacrifices will be restored to fulfill Ezekiel's temple prophecy (Eze. 40-47).

I guess I didn't realize you agree with me now!

That's good.

You wrote: "All your 12 points have been refuted in POST # 112; POST # 113; POST # 114; POST # 115 and outlining God's priesthood and sacrificial system un the NEW COVENANT in POST # 116"

My response: And all these attempts to refute have been refuted in POSTS 240, 241, 243, 244, and 250.

You wrote: "...Only Jesus is our true sacrifice under the NEW COVENANT."

My response: Of course. AND! That very Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33). This is yet future.

You wrote: "I think you are correct in stating that you need to consider this further as the weight of evidence in scripture and History disagrees with your viewpoint."

My response: I've disproven your history. You've failed to account for the diaspora of the northern kingdom Israelites.

I've also disprove your Scriptural interpretations.

Scripture and history disagree with you.

It doesn't look good for you.

Time for you to repent.

You wrote: "Seriously I only write this out of concern for your soul which only Jesus can heal not any shadows of animal sacrifices that pointed to Jesus."

My response: Who said that shadows heal souls? I said no such thing.

But those shadows CONTINUE (present tense! Col. 2:17) to function during the New-Covenant era.

Ok. Time for you to repent.

You wrote: "We only have forgivenly by Faith in Christ not in animal sacrifices."

My response: Of course! I never disputed that.

BUT, faith without works is dead.

And faithful Christians partake in the COVENANTS between Israel and God as fellow grafted-in Israelites.

These covenants have associated TORAH which we faithful Israelites should OBEY.

This Torah entails animal sacrifices.

The Prophets GUARANTEE their restoration (Jer. 33; Mal. 3; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Zec. 14).

Sadly, you OPPOSE these prophecies.

Time for you to repent.

blessings...

BibleGuy · Feb 26, 2018

Ezekiel8 said:

Hello,

You wrote: "how can you say the jewish establishment of today values the Torah when they are very boldly breaking the Torah?"

My response: You are right. But of course, I mean simply that the Jewish establishment at least sets forth a form of Torah-obedience to Torah portions often neglected or ignored or opposed by the Christian establishment (even though segments of the Jewish establishment, in fact, end up opposing that very Torah through their overriding unbiblical traditions and through their rejection of the Messiah Who is the Torah-made-flesh Who came to dwell among us, Jn. 1:14).

You wrote: 'there will be no restoration until the jews repent."

My response: Perhaps so, given Mt. 23:39.

You wrote: "It would be very exciting if they did turn back and be restored to the branch of Israel."

My response: True. But it appears we need to wait for a greater harvest of Gentiles to be grafted into Israel first (Rom. 11:25).

There are some indications that more and more Jews (even in Israel) are turning to faith in the Messiah, from what I've heard and seen. So that's good news.

blessings...

BibleGuy · Feb 26, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hey there!

Don't blame God!

Maybe it was SATAN trying to prevent you from learning the fact that direct and detailed engagement with my Scripturally-grounded critique will teach you things which the enemy does NOT want you to learn...

Or maybe it was just your own carelessness in computer editing...so again, don't blame God!

Just sayin...

Anyway, you wrote: "I believe God did not want me to take that approach with you or we would be going around in circles."

My response: Don't be silly. We won't be "going around in circles". Rather, we will be LEARNING from one another.

And now you have found an unjustified excuse to abstain from the detailed engagement required to more fully expose the superiority of my Scripturally-grounded position.

Yikes!

Looks like you're now seeking excuses to back away from full engagement.

You wrote: "Instead in the upcoming approach I am only going to provide scripture and let the scripture do the talking that show there is NO MORE ANIMAL SACRIFICES in the NEW Covenant."

My response: So you refuse to acknowledge that Paul CONDONED animal sacrifices during the New Covenant (Ac. 21) ?

You refuse to acknowledge that Paul's four associates CONDONED animal sacrifices during the New Covenant (Ac. 21) ?

You refuse to acknowledge that the REASON for Paul's participation in the vow was to prove that Paul "walked orderly according to the Torah" (Ac. 21), which of course entails animal sacrifices during that time (which was during the New Covenant) ?

You refuse to acknowledge that Zec. 14 is yet future? (this entails future animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era)

You refuse to acknowledge that Jer. 33 is yet future? (this entails future animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era)

You refuse to acknowledge that Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future? (this entails future animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era)

You refuse to acknowledge that Eze. 40-47 is yet future? (this entails future animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era)

You refuse to acknowledge that Mal. 3 is yet future? (this entails that JESUS will restore Levitical sacrifices during the New Covenant era)

Wow....

Ok....

So you will just ignore all this and more?

You will ignore all the Scripturally-grounded objections I've raised against your position in posts #240, 241, 243, 244, and 250, and 346 ???

Hmmm....

Looks like our discussion is sadly degenerating...

All you need to do is explain WHY my supporting reasons are incorrect.

Instead, it looks like you plan to ignore my supporting reasons, and instead, set forth your own reasons which you think support your own position.

In other words, you won't engage my position directly?

If so, then this is sad. And it would indicate that you are incapable of adequately defending your position against my Scripturally-grounded critique.

And why assume there are no more animal sacrifices in the New Covenant? Heb. 8:13 plainly states that the Old Covenant is READY to disappear (thereby confirming it had NOT yet disappeared as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews).

But you'll just ignore this too?

Sigh....

That's unacceptable. That's a failed defense of your position.

You wrote: "This will be my ONLY posting in your thread as I believe I have already coverered all your 12 points in POST # 112; POST #113; POST # 114; POST # 115 and addressed the NEW COVENANT in POST # 116"

My response: And I ALREADY have refuted your posts in Post #240, 241, 243, 244, and 250, and 346.

And now you refuse to answer that Scripturally-grounded critique directly?

Again, you are, in effect, conceding that you can't counter my supporting evidence directly.

Reminds me of a man who once told me: "My mind is already made up! Don't confuse me with the facts!"

Sigh...

You wrote: "The following POST will focus on the scriptures of COL 2; HEBREWS and other scriptures from the OLD and NEW Testament that show that that the Mosaic sacrificial laws are fulffilled in Christ under the NEW COVENANT and we are NO LONGER required to keep them."

My response: But if you refuse to directly counter the supporting evidence for my position, then you STILL have not given a reason to favor YOUR supporting reasons vs. MY supporting reasons.

Thus, until you actually directly engage MY supporting reasons, it follows that you have failed to adequately defend your position.

And, you have already now stated that you refuse to further directly engage my critique of your position.

Therefore, you have, in effect, conceded that you can NOT defend your position adequately.

We conclude there is no good reason to favor your position over mine.

AND, I will GLADLY provide:

1. SUPPORTING reasons for my position, and
2. Reasons which DISCONFIRM your position.

Unlike you, who will now apparently only provide supporting reasons for your position.

See how my position is better than yours?

I can defend my position better.

You evidently can't (or won't).

You wrote: "Now think carefully..."

My response: Really? Apparently you REFUSE to think about my supporting reasons, or even explain why you reject them, in light of the Scripturally-grounded defense I maintain (but which you refuse to further engage).

Thus, it is YOU have failed to think carefully.

It is YOU who are running away from the Scriptural implications I've brought forth.

Yikes!

This chat is going downhill (due to your refusal to properly further engage).

You wrote: "Your salvation depends on it."

My response: Seriously...I'm saved by grace through faith. Let's retract the bogus "you might not be saved" threats.

AND, what does Scripture say about even RELIGIOUS people who oppose Torah? It's pretty scary! (Mt. 5:19; Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 13:41-42).

So if one of us should be scared here, it is YOU!

But do I question your salvation? Not really...I prefer to believe that you are truly saved, but also truly ignorant of important Biblical considerations, and now also evidently afraid to directly engage these Biblical considerations...

But is that a salvation issue? I prefer to believe you are simply saved but stubborn...saved but afraid to engage...saved but not willing to follow truth in the best way possible....

Yet you question my salvation? And yet YOU are the one opposing Torah portions? (Despite the many supporting reasons I've given, which you've failed to refute in light of my ongoing defense...)

Sigh...

You can lead a donkey to water...but you can't make it drink.

Ezekiel8 · Feb 26, 2018

BibleGuy said:

Hello,

You wrote: "how can you say the jewish establishment of today values the Torah when they are very boldly breaking the Torah?"

My response: You are right. But of course, I mean simply that the Jewish establishment at least sets forth a form of Torah-obedience to Torah portions often neglected or ignored or opposed by the Christian establishment (even though segments of the Jewish establishment, in fact, end up opposing that very Torah through their overriding unbiblical traditions and through their rejection of the Messiah Who is the Torah-made-flesh Who came to dwell among us, Jn. 1:14).

You wrote: 'there will be no restoration until the jews repent."

My response: Perhaps so, given Mt. 23:39.

You wrote: "It would be very exciting if they did turn back and be restored to the branch of Israel."

My response: True. But it appears we need to wait for a greater harvest of Gentiles to be grafted into Israel first (Rom. 11:25).

There are some indications that more and more Jews (even in Israel) are turning to faith in the Messiah, from what I've heard and seen. So that's good news.

blessings...

I agree, this is a good post and these have been my observations as well. I hope indeed we will continue to see more and more Jews return to God and accept the Messiah Jesus to the increase in the glory and praise of God.

BibleGuy · Feb 27, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hello,

You forgot to address the following Scriptural reasons for animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era:

1. Zec. 14 is yet FUTURE (Sukkot will be GLOBALLY required, of course entailing the associated animal sacrifices)

2. Eze. 40-47 is yet FUTURE (LOTS of animal sacrifices going on there)

3. Is. 66 (Levitical function restored) is yet FUTURE.

4. Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE (100% Torah-obedience)

5. Jer. 33 (Levitical sacrificial activity restored in great measure, as an ONGOING permanent promise of the Davidic Covenant)

6. Mal. 3:1-4 (Jesus returns to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices as in the days of old, as in former years)

7. Jesus comes to rebuild the temple (Zec. 6), and sacrifices happen in the temple.

8. Jesus wants the temple (house of God) to be according to Is. 56:7 (cited in Mt. 21:13), which includes animal sacrifices; this applies to all New Covenant disciples (Mt. 28:20).

9. Paul condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era; we should imitate Paul and likewise condone animal sacrifices (1 Cor. 11:1) during the New Covenant era.

10. Paul's four associates condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

11. Paul and his four associates showed that animal sacrifices are useful for facilitating vows (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

12. Paul and his four associates showed that animal sacrifices are useful for making a public declaration in conjunction with a vow (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

13. The PURPOSE of the vow in Ac. 21 was to publicly declare that Paul "walked orderly, according to the law" (Ac. 21), implying Paul obeyed animal-sacrifice Torah during the New Covenant era. We should imitate that walk of Torah-obedience which Paul modeled (1 Cor. 11:1).

14. Animal-sacrificing priests were disciples (Ac. 6), during the New Covenant era.

15. THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

16. Heb. 8:13 confirms that the animal-sacrifice-laden Old Covenant was READY/NEAR to disappear as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, thereby confirming that the animal-sacrifice-laden Old Covenant functions at the same time as the New Covenant functions.

17. The New Covenant consists of TORAH written upon our hearts (see "TORAH", Jer. 31, also cited in Heb. 8 and Heb. 10) so that we will obey it. And, Torah entails animal sacrifices.

18. Paul affirms the legitimacy of the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25), yet also applies Dt. 30:14 to Christians, implying Torah should be in our heart so that we OBEY it (just as Dt. 30:14 states).

19. Jesus said that those who oppose even the smallest of Torah commands will be called least in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:20) in the New Covenant.

20. Jesus said that religious people who exhibit opposition to Torah (i.e., lawlessness, Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away; thus we Christians should NOT oppose Torah (or the animal sacrifices entailed by Torah).

21. Jesus said that a very scary fate awaits those who exhibit lawlessness (Mt. 13:41-42); thus we should OBEY (not oppose!) the laws of God which, of course, require animal sacrifices.

22. Jesus affirmed the legitimacy of Torah-obedience (Mt. 23:2-3,23), thus we Christians should not OPPOSE animal-sacrifice Torah which Jesus UPHOLDS.

23. Jesus sent forth Torah-teachers (Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-upholding Torah-teaching ministry; thus, we Christians should not OPPOSE the animal-sacrifice Torah which Jesus affirms is a proper element of His ministry.

24. Jesus affirmed that people should live according to the word of God (Mt. 4:4), and Torah is the word of God, thus entailing that Jesus affirms that animal sacrifice laws should be obeyed.

25. Jesus prayed that we be sanctified by the truth of the word of God (Jn. 17), and the Torah is the word of God, thus entailing that Jesus prays that we sanctified in obedience to animal sacrifice laws required in the Torah.

26. Jesus affirms the authority of the Psalms (which, in turn uphold Torah-obedience). Thus, Jesus affirms we Christians should obey Torah (which, of course, requires obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed).

27. Jesus affirms the authority of the Prophets (which, in turn uphold Torah-obedience). Thus, Jesus affirms we Christians should obey Torah (which, of course, requires obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed).

28. Peter and Paul affirm the authority of the Proverbs (which, in turn uphold Torah-obedience). Thus, Peter and Paul affirm that we Christians should obey Torah (which, of course, requires obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed).

29. Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and Israel (Eph. 2:12), and these covenants have associated Torah which should be obeyed, and this Torah requires animal sacrifices.

30. God commands obedience to Torah. We should obey God. Therefore, we should obey animal sacrifice laws in the Torah, when properly performed.

And on and on and on and on....

So, it does you no good to merely provide "support" for a position that is immediately contradicted by the 30 reason cited here, especially when you don't even defend that "support" in light of the Scripturally-grounded critique I continue to bring forth.

Instead, you must directly address these 30 reasons and explain why you think they are incorrect.

You need to look at both sides of the debate, not just your side. But evidently, you continue to refuse to do so.

Now, let's look at your side again, and see if your support withstands critical scrutiny.

Regarding Col. 2, you again (wrongly) claim that "dogma" refers to elements of Torah, even though I already examined every last occurrence of "dogma" in the NT (and in the LXX) and proved that NONE of those occurrences refers to Torah portions.

Remember Post #244? Why do you simply ignore it and perpetuate a claim I've already refuted (and you've given no good counterargument to that refutation) ?

Pending a good answer, I simply refer readers to Post #244 to see, yet again, why "dogma" in Col. 2 does NOT refer to Torah.

You wrote: "The Ten Commandments are not against us only the statutes and judgement in the Book of the Law in relation to when we sin were (the judgements and penalty for sin the curses for sin)."

My response: You just made that up. Nothing in Col. 2 states that statutes and judgements (but not the 10 commandments) are against us. Again, this flows from your bogus interpretation of the greek term "dogma", which I've already refuted in Post #244. And you continue to fail to answer my critique there.

Nothing in Dt. 31:26 or Dt. 30:19 or Mt. 27:50 or Heb. 9:1 or Heb. 8:2-13 states that animal sacrifices will not occur during the New Covenant.

Isaiah 1:10-17 fails to confirm your position, because that same Isaiah PROMISES future Levitical sacrificial activity (Is. 66:21-23) in the future new heavens and new earth! You've merely asserted a contradiction between Is. 1 and Is. 66.

Moreover, there is no contradiction! Why? Because Is. 1:10-17 does NOT mean "God opposes sacrifices because God wants no sacrifices to occur any more." There is no evidence for such a meaning.

Rather, God opposes sacrifices in Isaiah 1 because the Israelites were evil, unjust, ruthless, refusing to defend widows, and refusing to defend orphans (Is. 1:16-17).

Thus, God wants them to do sacrifices with a GOOD heart, not an evil heart. (Any other conclusion leads to the unacceptable claim that God does NOT want God's laws to be obeyed, which is ridiculous.)

The SAME dynamic is in Isaiah 66, where God OPPOSES sacrifices done by people with evil hearts (Is. 66:3-4), yet God AFFIRMS the perpetuity of animal Levitical sacrifices even into the new heavens and new earth (Is. 66:21-23) where people will have GOOD hearts.

Thus, Isaiah 1 fails to support your position. And, Is. 66 further contradicts your position.

Regarding Heb. 10:9, sure, God (in general) requires that (sinful) men perform animal sacrifices (according to Torah, as God requires). But God TAKES AWAY this requirement from the man Christ Jesus, because Jesus never sinned! And God requires the very sacrifice of the body of Jesus Himself. Thus, Jesus offers His own body (rather than any Torah-sanctioned sacrifice). That's how God takes away the first requirement (Levitical sacrifices) for Jesus and established a second requirement for Jesus (i.e., the sacrifice of His own body). What is this second requirement for Jesus? The OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL (Heb. 10:10). That's how Jesus performs the once-for-all sacrifice which takes our sins away forever (Heb. 10:12).

Does ANYTHING in this passage state that animal sacrifices should, therefore, not continue to be offered according to the law? Of course not!

Remember, Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

In fact, Hebrews 10:8 AFFIRMS that animal sacrifices must be offered according to the law.

And, Hebrews 10:16 AFFIRMS that the law (Torah "Jer. 31") in the New Covenant is to be written upon our hearts so that we obey it, which of course entails that we should obey animal-sacrifice Torah even during the New Covenant.

YOUR position fails to account for all these passages.

That's why my position is better, because it's BIBLE!

You wrote: "Hebrews 10 explains exactly what Isaiah 1 was speaking about. He takes away the 1st covenant {the meat and drink offerings} and established the 2nd covenant {the body of Christ}"

My response: You are guilty of EISEGESIS again! Heb. 10 never said that God "takes away the 1st covenant". You just made that up!

And Isaiah 1 NEVER stated that the Old Covenant (with Levitical sacrifices) was taken away. You just made that up! AND, Isaiah GUARANTEES future Levitical sacrificial activity in the future new heavens and earth (Is. 66:21-23).

And, if Isaiah prophesied against obedience to Torah-animal-sacrifice-laws in Isaiah 1, THEN ISAIAH WOULD BE A FALSE PROPHET! But of course, Isaiah is NOT a false prophet, which entails that Isaiah did NOT oppose PROPER obedience to Torah-animal-sacrifice-laws in Isaiah 1.

And again, Is. 66 IMMEDIATELY contradicts your bogus interpretation of Isaiah 1.

AND, Heb. 10 does NOT state that the Old Covenant is taken away, because Heb. 8:13 confirms that the Old Covenant had NOT yet passed away (but it was merely READY/NEAR to disappearing) as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

Thus, Heb. 8:13 contradicts your interpretation of Heb. 10.

You position is riddled with unjustified interpretations and contradictions which you have failed to explain away.

Time for you to repent!

Lk. 22:20 supports MY position, not YOURS. Why? Because Jesus inaugurates the New Covenant (Lk. 22) in which TORAH (Jer. 31, "TORAH") is written upon our hearts so that we will obey it, thereby confirming that the New Covenant requires animal sacrifices (in accordance with TORAH).

Again, you bring up Eph. 2:15. I already REFUTED your bogus interpretation of it! Remember Post 244???

Why do you ignore it?

I'll state it again: In Eph. 2:15, G1378 represents a law which was a barrier that divided Gentiles from Israelites (Eph. 2:11-15). That's not Torah! There is no Torah instruction which is a barrier that prevents Gentiles from joining Israel. So, G1378 does NOT represent Torah in Eph. 2:15.

So again, you've got a faulty definition of G1378 perverting your interpretation. And again, you've FAILED to even address my critique (see POST 244) of your interpretation.

Regarding Heb. 13:9, of COURSE we should not seek to strengthen our hearts through sacrificed meats without grace. Does it follow that we should DISCONTINUE sacrifice meats altogether? Of course NOT! (remember Paul and thousands of others, and even animal-sacrificing priests who were disciples CONDONED such sacrifices to prove obedience to Torah DURING the New Covenant era, Ac. 21, Ac. 6, but you apparently prefer to ignore this consideration yet again).

Thus, you have set Heb. 13:9 against the pattern of Paul ,and against the pattern of animal-sacrificing disciples who were priests, and against the pattern of THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples who were all ZEALOUS for Torah (not OPPOSED to Torah like you! See Ac. 21; Ac. 6)

A dynamic (similar to Heb. 13:9) is in Eph. 2, where we are told we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Does it follow that we should DISCONTINUE works altogether? Of course not! Likewise, "hearts should be strengthened by grace, not meats" does not entail "meats should be discontinued altogether".

Furthermore, that very chapter (Heb. 13:8) requires that we have FAITH (Gr. "pistis"). And what does Paul say about the "pistis" by which we should live? Paul says we should live by "pistis" (Gal. 3:11) which comes from H530 (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4). And what does "emunah" entail? TORAH! (Ps. 119:30,86,138). So now you have set Heb. 13:9 against the very faith affirmed in Heb. 13:7. Thus, we reject your position.

Again, the SAME writer of Hebrews says we should have TORAH (Heb. 8; Heb. 10) written upon our hearts so that we obey it (thus requiring animal sacrifices, when properly performed). So now you have set Heb. 13:9 against Heb. 8 and Heb. 10 as well. Again, we must reject your position.

Again, the SAME writer of Hebrews says the Old Covenant did NOT yet pass away (but was merely near/ready to disappear Heb. 8:13) as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. Again, we must reject your position.

And until you DIRECTLY address the support I provide for my position, we will ALWAYS be able to use it to reject YOUR interpretation.

That's why you must STOP ignoring the support I have provided.

All you are doing is setting forth interpretations which are: (1) wrong, as I've shown, and (2) contradicted by evidence for my position which you refuse to even directly engage.

That's a fail, buddy.

Unless, of course, you're now simply retreating to propaganda, in which case you're doing a GREAT job of simply repeating your opinions (despite the Scripturally-grounded counterarguments I've set forth).

Time for you to repent.

Get back to BIBLE.

ALL Bible (2 Ti. 3:16).

That requires animal sacrifices, when properly performed.

QUESTION: Will you CONTINUE to ignore the 30 reasons (see above in this post) I've set forth?

Will you CONTINUE to ignore the failings of your position outlined in posts # 240, 241, 243, 244, and 250, and 346, and 348?

Will you CONTINUE to ignore the Biblical counterarguments I've set forth throughout this post here?

I sure hope not...

Or maybe you've answered everything further down in this thread (which I am still reading...)

We shall see!

After all, I'm now only up to Post #248.

blessings....

BibleGuy · Feb 27, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hello,

You forgot to address the following Scriptural SUPPORT for animal sacrifices during the New Covenant era:

1. Zec. 14 is yet FUTURE (Sukkot will be GLOBALLY required, of course entailing the associated animal sacrifices)

2. Eze. 40-47 is yet FUTURE (LOTS of animal sacrifices going on there)

3. Is. 66 (Levitical function restored) is yet FUTURE.

4. Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE (100% Torah-obedience)

5. Jer. 33 (Levitical sacrificial activity restored in great measure, as an ONGOING permanent promise of the Davidic Covenant)

6. Mal. 3:1-4 (Jesus returns to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices as in the days of old, as in former years)

7. Jesus comes to rebuild the temple (Zec. 6), and sacrifices happen in the temple.

8. Jesus wants the temple (house of God) to be according to Is. 56:7 (cited in Mt. 21:13), which includes animal sacrifices; this applies to all New Covenant disciples (Mt. 28:20).

9. Paul condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era; we should imitate Paul and likewise condone animal sacrifices (1 Cor. 11:1) during the New Covenant era.

10. Paul's four associates condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

11. Paul and his four associates showed that animal sacrifices are useful for facilitating vows (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

12. Paul and his four associates showed that animal sacrifices are useful for making a public declaration in conjunction with a vow (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

13. The PURPOSE of the vow in Ac. 21 was to publicly declare that Paul "walked orderly, according to the law" (Ac. 21), implying Paul obeyed animal-sacrifice Torah during the New Covenant era. We should imitate that walk of Torah-obedience which Paul modeled (1 Cor. 11:1).

14. Animal-sacrificing priests were disciples (Ac. 6), during the New Covenant era.

15. THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21) during the New Covenant era.

16. Heb. 8:13 confirms that the animal-sacrifice-laden Old Covenant was READY/NEAR to disappear as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, thereby confirming that the animal-sacrifice-laden Old Covenant functions at the same time as the New Covenant functions.

17. The New Covenant consists of TORAH written upon our hearts (see "TORAH", Jer. 31, also cited in Heb. 8 and Heb. 10) so that we will obey it. And, Torah entails animal sacrifices.

18. Paul affirms the legitimacy of the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25), yet also applies Dt. 30:14 to Christians, implying Torah should be in our heart so that we OBEY it (just as Dt. 30:14 states).

19. Jesus said that those who oppose even the smallest of Torah commands will be called least in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:20) in the New Covenant.

20. Jesus said that religious people who exhibit opposition to Torah (i.e., lawlessness, Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away; thus we Christians should NOT oppose Torah (or the animal sacrifices entailed by Torah).

21. Jesus said that a very scary fate awaits those who exhibit lawlessness (Mt. 13:41-42); thus we should OBEY (not oppose!) the laws of God which, of course, require animal sacrifices.

22. Jesus affirmed the legitimacy of Torah-obedience (Mt. 23:2-3,23), thus we Christians should not OPPOSE animal-sacrifice Torah which Jesus UPHOLDS.

23. Jesus sent forth Torah-teachers (Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-upholding Torah-teaching ministry; thus, we Christians should not OPPOSE the animal-sacrifice Torah which Jesus affirms is a proper element of His ministry.

24. Jesus affirmed that people should live according to the word of God (Mt. 4:4), and Torah is the word of God, thus entailing that Jesus affirms that animal sacrifice laws should be obeyed.

25. Jesus prayed that we be sanctified by the truth of the word of God (Jn. 17), and the Torah is the word of God, thus entailing that Jesus prays that we sanctified in obedience to animal sacrifice laws required in the Torah.

26. Jesus affirms the authority of the Psalms (which, in turn uphold Torah-obedience). Thus, Jesus affirms we Christians should obey Torah (which, of course, requires obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed).

27. Jesus affirms the authority of the Prophets (which, in turn uphold Torah-obedience). Thus, Jesus affirms we Christians should obey Torah (which, of course, requires obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed).

28. Peter and Paul affirm the authority of the Proverbs (which, in turn uphold Torah-obedience). Thus, Peter and Paul affirm that we Christians should obey Torah (which, of course, requires obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed).

29. Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and Israel (Eph. 2:12), and these covenants have associated Torah which should be obeyed, and this Torah requires animal sacrifices.

30. God commands obedience to Torah. We should obey God. Therefore, we should obey animal sacrifice laws in the Torah, when properly performed.

AND: Will you CONTINUE to ignore the failings of your position outlined in posts # 240, 241, 243, 244, and 250, and 346, and 348 and 350?

I hope not.

Please engage ALL Scriptural data, not just the Scriptures you've twisted into "support" for your position (while ignoring the support for my position).

Now then, sure, Col. 2:16 refers to things which entail animal sacrifices, but Col. 2:16 does NOT state that animal sacrifices are terminated in the New Covenant era. Therefore, Col. 2:16 does not help you one iota.

Furthermore, Col. 2:17 refers to them in the PRESENT TENSE! (they ARE a shadow, not WERE a shadow). Thus, it is confirmed that animal sacrifices CONTINUE to function in the New Covenant era.

So again, this passage support MY position, and refutes YOUR position.

You wrote: "But now we are no longer under the law of Moses concerning the meat and drink offerings of Gods holy days, new moons and the sabbaths. Jesus fulfilled the law. We are now under grace."

My response: Heb. 13 says no such thing. You just made that up!

I reiterate: Regarding Heb. 13:9, of COURSE we should not seek to strengthen our hearts through sacrificed meats without grace. Does it follow that we should DISCONTINUE sacrifice meats altogether? Of course NOT! (remember Paul and thousands of others, and even animal-sacrificing priests who were disciples CONDONED such sacrifices to prove obedience to Torah DURING the New Covenant era, Ac. 21, Ac. 6, but you apparently prefer to ignore this consideration yet again).

Thus, you have set Heb. 13:9 against the pattern of Paul, and against the pattern of animal-sacrificing disciples who were priests, and against the pattern of THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples who were all ZEALOUS for Torah (not OPPOSED to Torah like you! See Ac. 21; Ac. 6)

A dynamic (similar to Heb. 13:9) is in Eph. 2, where we are told we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Does it follow that we should DISCONTINUE works altogether? Of course not! Likewise, "hearts should be strengthened by grace, not meats" does not entail "meats should be discontinued altogether".

Furthermore, that very chapter (Heb. 13:8) requires that we have FAITH (Gr. "pistis"). And what does Paul say about the "pistis" by which we should live? Paul says we should live by "pistis" (Gal. 3:11) which comes from H530 (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4). And what does "emunah" entail? TORAH! (Ps. 119:30,86,138). So now you have set Heb. 13:9 against the very faith affirmed in Heb. 13:7. Thus, we reject your position.

Again, the SAME writer of Hebrews says we should have TORAH (Heb. 8; Heb. 10) written upon our hearts so that we obey it (thus requiring animal sacrifices, when properly performed). So now you have set Heb. 13:9 against Heb. 8 and Heb. 10 as well. Again, we must reject your position.

Again, the SAME writer of Hebrews says the Old Covenant did NOT yet pass away (but was merely near/ready to disappear Heb. 8:13) as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. Again, we must reject your position.

You wrote: "When we let scripture interpret scripture its very clear what Col.2 is speaking about. The meat and drink offerings of those days are no longer to be kept."

My response: You just made that up! Col. 2 says no such thing.

And why do you pretend to "let Scripture interpret Scripture", yet you persist in ignoring the Scriptural considerations and implications I continue to set before you? (thus, you don't even practice your hermeneutics consistently).

And, you oppose Paul, you oppose animal-sacrificing priests who were disciples, and you oppose THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers who were all zealous for Torah (along with Paul), according to Ac. 21 and Ac. 6, which confirms they obeyed animal-sacrifice Torah.

Yikes! Paul could easily give you a rather quick rebuke! Paul took a vow to PROVE he walked "orderly according to the law" (participating in animal-sacrifice-laden Torah vows to prove it), yet you OPPOSE this Pauline practice???

Paul said ALL Scripture (2 Ti. 3:16) should correct and train your behavior, yet YOU refuse to let your behavior be corrected into alignment with animal-sacrifice Scripture (thus, directly opposing 2 Ti. 3:16).

And you oppose the prophets which guarantee future animal sacrifices (Jer. 33; Zec. 14; Dt. 30; Is. 66; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 3).

Wow...

And Col. 2 says the shadows ARE (present tense!) a shadow, not "were" a shadow, thereby confirming the ONGOING shadow-function of the law which you oppose.

Regarding Nu. 28, You wrote: "Theres the meat and drink offerings for the sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of."

My response: And what does Col. 2:17 say about those offerings? Ah yes! They ARE (not "were") a shadow! Thus, the shadow CONTINUES to function, hence Paul (and thousands of 1st century believers, Ac. 21) were zealous in proper OBEDIENCE to animal sacrifice Torah.

Regarding Ezekiel 46, you wrote: "The meat offering for the new moon that was spoken of in Col.2 [16]."

My response: Dude! Ezekiel 46 is yet FUTURE! Thus, you are IMMEDIATELY refuted.

You wrote: "Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings)."

My response: And guess what! Hebrews 10:1 uses PRESENT TENSE with respect to the shadow! The offerings thus CONTINUE to function in this New Covenant era! Again, this passage immediately SUPPORTS my position, and refutes yours.

Furthermore, that SAME WRITER of Hebrews says that the Old Covenant is near/ready to disappear (Heb. 8:13), thereby confirming it had NOT yet disappeared as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews, thus proving that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function simultaneously.

Again, that SAME WRITER of Hebrews says that the New Covenant consists of TORAH being written upon our hearts (Heb. 8; Heb. 10) so that we will obey it, which of course entails obedience to animal sacrifice laws in the NEW Covenant.

So you have now set Heb. 10:1 against Heb. 8 and against Heb. 10, needlessly setting forth an alleged Biblical contradiction.

You wrote: "Above scripture confirms that the offerings are also called oblations"

My response: Doesn't help you.

Regarding Isaiah 1, you wrote: "Bring no more vain oblations in the new moons and the sabbath and feast days. WHY? Because Jesus nailed these offerings (oblations) to the cross."

My response: Isaiah 1 says no such thing. You just made that up! Stomping out your EISEGESIS is becoming tedious and tiresome.

And, that SAME ISAIAH guarantees Levitical sacrifices in the forthcoming new heavens and new earth (Is. 66:21-23). So again, you are immediately refuted.

And regarding Isaiah 1, please recall that Is. 1:10-17 does NOT mean "God opposes sacrifices because God wants no sacrifices to occur any more." There is no evidence for such a meaning.

Rather, God opposes sacrifices in Isaiah 1 because the Israelites were evil, unjust, ruthless, refusing to defend widows, and refusing to defend orphans (Is. 1:16-17).

Thus, God wants them to do sacrifices with a GOOD heart, not an evil heart. (Any other conclusion leads to the unacceptable claim that God does NOT want God's laws to be obeyed, which is ridiculous.)

The SAME dynamic is in Isaiah 66, where God OPPOSES sacrifices done by people with evil hearts (Is. 66:3-4), yet God AFFIRMS the perpetuity of animal Levitical sacrifices even into the new heavens and new earth (Is. 66:21-23) where people will have GOOD hearts.

You wrote: "Hebrews 10 explains exactly what Isaiah 1 was speaking about. He takes away the 1st covenant {the meat and drink offerings} and established the 2nd covenant {the body of Christ}"

My response: Hebrews 10 never states that God takes away the 1st covenant (you just made that up!)

And regarding Heb. 10:9, sure, God (in general) requires that (sinful) men perform animal sacrifices (according to Torah, as God requires). But God TAKES AWAY this requirement from the man Christ Jesus, because Jesus never sinned! And God requires the very sacrifice of the body of Jesus Himself. Thus, Jesus offers His own body (rather than any Torah-sanctioned sacrifice). That's how God takes away the first requirement (Levitical sacrifices) for Jesus and established a second requirement for Jesus (i.e., the sacrifice of His own body). What is this second requirement for Jesus? The OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL (Heb. 10:10). That's how Jesus performs the once-for-all sacrifice which takes our sins away forever (Heb. 10:12).

Does ANYTHING in this passage state that animal sacrifices should, therefore, not continue to be offered according to the law? Of course not!

Remember, Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

In fact, Hebrews 10:8 AFFIRMS that animal sacrifices must be offered according to the law.

And, Hebrews 10:16 AFFIRMS that the law (Torah "Jer. 31") in the New Covenant is to be written upon our hearts so that we obey it, which of course entails that we should obey animal-sacrifice Torah even during the New Covenant.

You wrote: "The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law"

My response: Make up your mind! If the law is not changed, THEN IT STILL APPLIES! (including animal sacrifice laws).

And, "fulfill" does not entail "terminate", so you haven't even proven the bogus underlying assumption skewing you astray.

And, the covenant states that TORAH (Jer. 31, "TORAH") is to be written upon our hearts, with NO EXCEPTION given regarding animal sacrifices!

And, if Jeremiah (Jer. 31) prophesied of an anti-Torah "covenant", then Jeremiah would be a false prophet!

But Jeremiah is NOT a false prophet. Thus, "Torah" in Jer. 31 is NOT anti-Torah.

It follows that New Covenant Torah INCLUDES animal sacrifice laws.

Regarding Zechariah 9, you wrote: "Verse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant"

My response: Great! And WHAT does Jesus do when He comes? He RESTORES LEVITICAL SACRIFICES (Mal. 3:1-4) and REBUILDS A TEMPLE (Zec. 6).

You wrote: "...New covenant...blood...New testament...blood...
old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings"

My response: Great! The NEW and OLD covenants are different. That does NOT prove they do not function simultaneously.

And, I've already given dozens of reasons which confirm they DO function simultaneously (see the 30 reasons earlier this post, for example).

And, you continue to fail to address these reasons in detail.

Regarding Hebrews 10, you wrote: "He taketh away the first {covenant}, that he may establish the second."

My response: Hebrews never says that the Old Covenant was already taken away. You just made that up!

See above (in this post) where I refute you on this.

You wrote: "And there is the 2nd"

My response: Weak. And I gave 30 reasons which show you're wrong.

And, mere identification of a second covenant does not entail that the earlier covenant can not function simultaneously.

And you quote Mt. 5:17??? Why not Mt. 5:19, which plainly states that your opposition to even the smallest of Torah commands can render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom.

Yikes! You are needlessly placing yourself on the bad side of Mt. 5:19 (and Mt. 7:21-23; and Mt. 13:41-42).

You don't need to do that!

REPENT!

You wrote: "Jesus did not come to change or destroy the law."

My response: Then if the law is unchanged, it follows that animal sacrifice laws HAVE NOT BEEN TERMINATED!

You wrote: "The sabbath is still to be kept."

My response: AND SABBATH REQUIRES SACRIFICES! (Nu. 28:9-10)

You wrote: "He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN"

My response: "Fulfill" does not entail "terminate". You haven't justified your underlying bogus presupposition.

AND, THERE IS NO MOSAIC LAW FOR REMISSION OF SIN! You just made that up again!

Remember? The sacrifices NEVER took away sins (Heb. 10:4,11). So YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

You wrote: "NO MORE Ceremonial/Levitical/Sacrificial laws and animal sacrifices."

My response: So you will OPPOSE Jesus when He restores the sacrifices? (Mal. 3:1-4)

You will OPPOSE the PERMANENT promise of the Levitical sacrificial activity in the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33) yet to be fulfilled?

You will OPPOSE Zechariah? (Zec. 14)

You will OPPOSE Moses? (Dt. 30:1-8)

You will OPPOSE Paul? (Ac. 21)

You will OPPOSE Paul's four associates? (Ac. 21)

You will OPPOSE thousands of 1st-century disciples? (Ac. 21)

You will OPPOSE the disciples who were animal-sacrificing priests? (Ac. 6)

You will OPPOSE the writer of Hebrews (8:13) who confirms New AND Old Covenants function simultaneously?

You will OPPOSE the house/temple which Jesus desires to rebuild (Zec. 6) which includes sacrificial activity (Is. 56:7) ?

You will OPPOSE the sacrifices of the FUTURE Ezekiel's Temple (Eze. 40-47) ?

You will OPPOSE the DOZENS of Scriptural considerations I've set against your position in this post, and in post #240?

and post #241?

and post # 243?

and post # 244?

and post # 250?

and post # 346?

and post # 348?

and post # 350?

Wow....

You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.

You wrote: "My prayer is that you may consider these scriptures. Thanks my friend it was nice talking to you. What you decide to do now is between you and God."

My response: I show you a hundred reasons why you're wrong.

You refuse to properly engage.

Then you walk away.

Sigh...

Then let this thread stand as a permanent witness against your position.

regards...

PS HOW should we love god? (Mt. 22:37 quotes Dt. 6). Answer: Through obedience to ALL God's commands (1 Jn. 5:3; Dt. 6:25), which of course, entails obedience to animal-sacrifice requirements when properly implemented.

Indeed, let us LOVEGODFOREVER!

BibleGuy · Feb 27, 2018

p_rehbein said:

haha!

But, um, Peter applied Lev. 11 to us Christians (1 Pe. 1:16 applies Lev. 11 to you).

So, sorry....pork is NOT acceptable!

But appreciate the humor!

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 27, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

Hello,

Thanks for writing.

You wrote: "You are saying you would give a sacrifice of an animal?"

My response: I'm saying LEVITES WILL sacrifice animals again, in the future, as guaranteed in the prophets (Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30).

In fact, Jesus HIMSELF comes to restore Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

You wrote: "This would be trampling the Precious Blood of Christ that bought you,underfoot as a worthless thing..."

My response: Will you tell this to Jesus when JESUS restores those very sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4)?

Will you tell God that God should CANCEL His Davidic Covenant which is a promise (as certain as day and night! Jer. 33:20-22) which guarantees future Levitical sacrificial activity?

I think Jesus/God know what they are doing.

Let's stop opposing them.

I never said the blood of Christ is worthless.

Thus, you've falsely represented my position.

You wrote: "do you believe God would demand an animal sacrifice from you?"

My response: What does God GUARANTEE as a PERMANENT promise for the future? Levitical activity (which, of course, entails animal sacrifices), Jer. 33:20-22.

I hope you do not oppose God's permanent promise in Jer. 33:20-22.

You wrote: "Who has bewitched you?"

My response: Who has bewitched you so as to falsely accuse me of being bewitched?

Yikes!

Let's settle down and look at some Scriptures together...

Unless you account for these future prophecies (Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Mal. 3:1-4), then your position is unacceptable.

By the way, the FUTURE PROPHECY of Zec. 14 includes a GLOBAL commandment to participate in the sacrifice-laden feast of sukkot, with punishment against those who disobey.

Hope to hear from you...

Grandpa · Feb 27, 2018

BibleGuy said:

Hebrews 7:11-19

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19[/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Do you know what that better hope is?

Hint: It is NOT animal sacrifice....

Stunnedbygrace · Feb 27, 2018

This has been a wacky thread from the beginning. You are seriously messed up theologically. You now say eating pork is unacceptable ? Man, you don't even try to obfuscate at all. You are teaching works of the law, very plainly.

TMS · Feb 27, 2018

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Jesus is our offering forever.

breno785au · Feb 27, 2018

We all first trust Christ to take our sin away, 2000 years later we now trust in an animal again... Rrrrrright.

BibleGuy · Feb 27, 2018

garee said:

Hello,

You wrote: "The punishment of Heb. 6:4-6. What punishment? Tasting the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come and then fall away in unbelief?"

My response: The punishment of being unable to be renewed to repentance is a terrible punishment (Heb. 6:6).

You wrote: "How do you reconcile animal sacrifices pointing to the trus substance Christ into a tool for renewing as a work of repentance?"

My response: Not quite sure what your asking...but when we see the ongoing need for sacrifices (Heb. 10:4,11) as a reminder of sins (Heb. 10:3), well, this leads us to discern the need to find a better once-for-all sacrifice for sins that COMPLETELY takes sins away. In this way, the sacrificial system points to the need for Christ to redeem us once-for-all (Heb. 10:4).

And, as we repent in obedience to the Gospel of Christ, we find that very redemption in Christ, even as the shadow of the sacrificial system continues to point to that very reality we already experience by grace through faith.

Maybe that's what you're looking for?

You wrote: "What did the first century reformation perform?"

My response: The time of reformation (Heb. 9:10) could be viewed as the time when Christ offered Himself to God (Heb. 9:14), thereby inaugurating the New Covenant.

You wrote: "Seeing the previous time period had come to an end"

My response: The Old Covenant time period and the New Covenant time period OVERLAP!

Remember? Heb. 8:13 states that the Old Covenant is NEAR/READY to disappear, thereby confirming it had NOT yet disappeared as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

It follows that the time of reformation introduces new realities, even while the older realities were still continuing to function.

So, your claim that the "previous time period had come to an end" is NOT correct.

You wrote: "Is there a specific reason you seek after shadows rather than walking by faith, the unseen?"

My response: We should do BOTH! The shadows CONTINUE to function (PRESENT TENSE is used with respect to the shadows in Col. 2:17 and in Heb. 10:1 and in Heb. 8:5).

Paul walked by faith (2 Cor. 5:7), but Paul also condoned animal sacrifices (Ac. 21). Let's imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1) and do likewise.

And the prophets GUARANTEE their future restoration (Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Jer. 33; Is. 66; Dt. 30) even with JESUS Himself doing the restoration of Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

Let's not oppose Paul or the prophets or the writer of Hebrews.

Let's uphold the perpetuity of the animal sacrifice laws of the Torah of the covenants in which we participate by grace through faith.

blessings...

BibleGuy · Feb 27, 2018

preston39 said:

Hello,

The return of 100% Torah-obedience is for all Israelites (Dt. 30:1-8; Is. 66:20-23), and we Christians ARE Israelites.

Therefore, the animal sacrifice laws are for us Christians too.

Now, is it REALLY true that we Christians are accepted as fellow Israelites?

Of course it is true!

Here's the proof:

1. Israelites are the ONLY people who participate in the New Covenant (see "ISRAEL" in Jer. 31:33).
2. Christians are people who participate in the New Covenant.
3. Therefore, Christians MUST be Israelites (from 1 and 2).

There it is!

We are Israelites!

Many of us simply don't know this (yet).

And, since Torah is given to US (Mal. 4:4), we should NOT oppose the Torah given to us, thus we should not oppose the animal sacrifice laws given to us.

And, Zec. 14 requires future GLOBAL participation (not merely participation for "the Jew...who believes not in Christ") in the animal-sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot.

Therefore, FUTURE animal sacrifices are for ALL of us.

Indeed, Jesus will personally restore them (Mal. 3:1-4) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant which permanently guarantees them (Jer. 33:20-22).

ok...thanks for writing.

Stunnedbygrace · Feb 28, 2018

breno785au said:

Thank goodness! The threads gone on for a couple of weeks and no one stood up to the lies and a few even said, oh, well, we may very well sacrifice animals in the future as commemoration...!
And it was making me crazy that no one said anything to him!

ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

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