Answering the Cessationists’ Case against Continuing Spiritual Gifts

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L

Lifelike

Guest
#1
Just an interesting article i found somewhere online :) lol

From the Spring 2000 issue of the Pneuma Review (Vol 3, No 2)
By Jon Ruthven
In the preceding article, we left our friend, George, the novice charismatic whose excited testimony ran into a
wall of biblical-sounding arguments from his pastor, a cessationist.1 This article offered a kind of pocket guide of
“pro” charismatic arguments which George (or you, gentle reader) can photocopy and send to your cessationist
friends (ZONE, ABIDING AND FESTER) for comment. We now offer George some responses to a couple of prominent arguments he is likely to hear
from his cessationist pastor and others like him.
The most thorough catalog of cessationist arguments— and answers— appears in these pages in Wayne
Grudem’s four-part article, a reprint of chapter 2 in an excellent book by Gary Greig and Kevin Springer, editors
of The Kingdom and the Power: Are Healing and the Spiritual Gifts Used by Jesus and the Apostles and the Early
Church Meant for the Church Today? published by Regal Books in 1993.
This present article seeks to supplement that chapter with answers to two prominent objections to continuing
spiritual gifts: 1) “History shows that miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased,” or, in a variation of that objection:
“If miracles and spiritual gifts have continued, then why don’t we see them as widespread and obvious today as in
New Testament times?” 2) “Ephesians 2:20 shows that the ‘foundational gifts’ of apostle and prophet have
ceased.” In my experience, these are two of the most common cessationist arguments in use today which are worth
examining.
1. “History shows that miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased.”
Following Benjamin Warfield’s classic cessationist work, Counterfeit Miracles published in 1918, many today
appeal to history to show the cessation of miraculous gifts. Warfield insisted that his book stood on “two legs”:
biblical and historical proofs. But his “legs” were grossly disproportional: probably 97% of his book stood on the
historical leg, while his biblical arguments were haphazardly scattered through his pages, responding only to the
biblical arguments of his opponents.
Older Pentecostals and charismatics find this odd, since our critics have often said that we base our “theology”
on “experience” rather than on the word of God. Yet an appeal to “history” is actually an appeal to
“experiences”— at least to those in the past. These days, the shoe is very much on the other foot: cessationists
increasingly appeal to “experience” (history) while charismatics, like Jack Deere, Gordon Fee, Wayne Grudem,
Gary Greig, Max Turner and John Wimber are building increasingly sophisticated biblical arguments.2
Cessationists often cite horror stories in connection with charismatic manifestations, as for example, Hank
Hanegraaff in his book, Counterfeit Revival3 or John MacArthur in Charismatic Chaos. Certainly the
Pentecostal/charismatic movement has had its share of weirdoes. But the cessationists’ ad hominum argument
(against individuals rather than against the proposition) does not deal with the issue: according to Scripture, are
charismatic manifestations a normative part of the Christian life today?
We have all heard the story of a Chinese missionary overhearing a Pentecostal person “cursing Christ” while
speaking in tongues in Chinese, repeated like an urban legend (the poodle in the microwave; the alligators in the
sewer; the disappearing hitch-hiker, etc.) for decades. The “Chinese curser” seems to be a story recycled from
Alma White, Demons and Tongues.4 Such negative stories can more than be matched, however, by such works as
Ralph Harris’s popular paperback, Spoken by the Spirit: Documented Accounts of “Other Tongues” from Arabic to
Zulu (Springfield, Mo.: Gospel Pub. House, 1973) or Albert J. Hebert, Raised from the Dead: True Stories of 400
Resurrection Miracles (Rockford, IL: TAN Publications, 1986) and numerous others.5
But does in fact an examination of history show that spiritual gifts and miracles ceased in the post-apostolic
era? Recently, a friend of mine who taught in a traditionally cessationist seminary set out to prove that Warfield
was right: that the gift of prophecy ceased after the apostles died. When he carefully examined the literature,
however, he came to publish exactly the opposite conclusion!6 At my suggestion, he wrote another excellent piece
of research showing that the early church fathers actually used 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 as proof that prophecy would
continue in all the church until the end of the age.7 In no case, did he find that the fathers ever used 1 Cor 13:8-12
as a text to indicate the closing of the canon or the “maturity” of the church as modern cessationists have tried to
do. In fact, he shows that it was the heretics who tried to use 1 Cor 13 in this way!
Many good books have been produced showing the frequent outbreak of miracles and spiritual gifts throughout
church history (See also the excellent series by Richard Riss entitled “Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts from
the 2nd to 19th Centuries” which appeared in the first five issue of the Pneuma Review, Fall 1998 (Vol 1 No 1)
through Fall 1999 (Vol 2, No 4)). We will offer only three seldom-quoted examples of many hundreds available.
Chapter 22 of St. Augustine’s City of God is devoted to the story of how Augustine himself became a full blown
“charismatic” after being a bit of a theological cessationist. He repudiates his previous position, and provides
examples of over seventy miracles he recorded in and around his churches. Augustine complains in section 22,8
that contemporary miracles are relatively unknown not because they no longer occur, but simply because of bad
communication and because people are conditioned to disbelieve them.8 Pope Gregory VI in writing about the
successful evangelism of Britain enthused: “… great miracles imitate powers of the apostles in the signs they
[perform].”9 Much later, Luther seems to have undergone a similar conversion to that of Augustine toward the end
of his life.
Martin Luther was never a shrinking violet, but at one point he sounds bolder than Kenneth Hagin! After
snatching his friend, Melanchthon “from death’s arms,” Luther describes his incredibly aggressive prayer: “In this
instance our Lord God had to pay me; for I threw the bag of concerns before his door and I dinned his ears with all
of his promises as to how he desired to favorably hear our prayer— promises which I well knew how to document
in Scripture! I put it to him that he had to grant my request if he expected me to continue to trust his promises!”10
Until recently, as in Augustine’s time, most Christians in the West have been conditioned, even by church
leaders, to disbelieve and discount any contemporary miracle stories. Now, with the advent of primarily
charismatic television ministries and a knee-jerk reaction against the sterile Enlightenment rationalism that has
dominated Western thought, many more Americans are believing in the power of God. Thirty percent of American
adults reported that they had experienced “a remarkable healing” in their lives11, while a total of 78% of
Americans either “believe” (27%) or ‘strongly believe” (51%) that “even today miracles are performed by the
power of God,” only 15% somewhat disagreed or 6% strongly disagreed!12
We turn now to probably the most prominent biblical argument used by cessationists today.
2. “Ephesians 2:20 shows that the ‘foundational gifts’ of apostle and prophet have ceased.”
The argument by analogy based on the metaphor of apostles and prophets as foundational to the church (Eph.
2.20 and 3.5) does not support the cessation of “miraculous” spiritual gifts. Some cessationists have approached
Eph. 2.20 as the authoritative flow chart of the universal church. The apostles and prophets serve as a “foundation”
in the sense that they collectively represent a kind of oral “interim New Testament,” their gifts and functions being
extinguished when normative doctrine is set down in writing within the first generation or two of the church.13
Generally, this argument is framed against the mindset of Reformation-era polemics and Enlightenment
rationalism, with unexamined premises about Popes, apostolic succession and authority, miracles, “ordinary and
extraordinary” spiritual gifts, and even the essential nature of the gospel itself. There are at least four premises in
this argument.
1. The metaphor of “foundation,” to support cessationism, requires that the distinctive function of apostles and
prophets is to establish the parameters of church doctrine, particularly as it appears in the New Testament. Hence,
when their collective function is complete, the gifts of apostleship and prophecy necessarily pass from the scene.
Recent advocates of cessationism are sensitive to charges that this argument is anachronistic, that it reads much
later theological ideas back into the New Testament. They also recognize that it is unlikely that the “foundational”
apostles and prophets involved were at all aware of their role as an interim New Testament. Nevertheless, the
argument remains essentially unaltered: these “foundational” gifts are strictly limited to this brief, transitional
function.
The problem with this view is that not only does the New Testament nowhere explicitly state that this is the
only role for apostles and prophets, it does not even state that this is one of their roles. In Ephesians, the explicit
roles given for apostles and prophets are that they are to work in concert with evangelists, pastors and teachers in
equipping the saints until ultimate unity and Christian maturity is achieved in all. If the duration of the gifts is
necessarily connected with their function, as these cessationists argue, then clearly the task of apostles and
prophets is not complete until every single member of the church reaches the same level of Christian maturity as
Christ himself (Eph. 4.13). Most cessationists would agree with St. Paul (Phil. 3.12) who does not have the
audacity to make the claim that he has attained that level. Certainly we have not yet reached “unity of the faith”
even on the issue of cessationism. To claim that the only function of apostles and prophets in the New Testament is
to formulate doctrine for inclusion in the Bible is in itself unbiblical. But if there are other roles for them, then the
“foundational” argument fails.
2. If the charismata were only for “foundational” purposes, then the apostles and prophets were Protestant
Popes. That is, they served as the unique receivers and articulators of Christian revelation, a role that no one may
subsequently share. However, it can be argued that the New Testament sees these gifts as first and definitive, but
certainly not un-repeatable.
These “foundational gifts” actually serve as prototypes, or as role models for others to follow. It is true that the
original experience of Christ’s revelation is “epochal,” or “pioneering.” It is also true that these experiences are
offered as a model for others to follow. Just as Lindberg’s crossing of the Atlantic was “foundational” or “epochal”
it was so only because other similar flights followed; Lindberg opened a new era of a repeatable action.
For the church, then, the apostolic and prophetic gift is “foundational” not only in the sense that the apostles
and prophets first announced the gospel in some areas, but that all further revelation about Christ is delineated,
articulated, qualified, and offered for reduplication by its original receivers. Hence, this passage shows not that the
gifts of apostleship and prophecy ceased, but rather that since these people’s experience is “foundational” and
archetypal, their experience and functions therefore must continue.
Most importantly we must remember that the apostles and prophets only communicated their revelations; they
did not create them, ex cathedra. They were not, after all, God. Hence their lives, experiences with Christ and
ministries are, to the extent that they followed Christ, necessarily exemplary and repeatable, inviting rabbinic
pedagogical imitation as do Jesus and Paul.14
At least three points support this. First, Paul lays stress on the “connection” of Jews and Gentiles via access to
the Father, not simply through a funnel of apostolic authority, but “through [Christ]. . . by one Spirit” (the
Revealer) in Eph. 2.18. Secondly, just as Paul received by revelation his gospel of reconciliation between God, Jews
and Gentiles (3.3), so now the whole church, by reading (3.3-4) and by revelation by the power of the Spirit (3.1-
18) is similarly to grasp the scope of God’s love (inter alia, the inclusion of the Gentiles). Thirdly, and most
explicitly, Christ gave15 these apostles and prophets until (mechri) ultimate, eschatological goals of Christian
upbuilding and maturity are achieved (4.13) “that we all attain to the unity of the faith” (this has happened?!); that
we all attain to the knowledge of the Son of God (but to what extent?) to mature manhood to the measure of the
stature of the fullness of Christ (has this happened to all Christians?). These goals can only be attained in heaven!
Until then, apostles and prophets (however the church may have later labeled them) are envisioned to be
continuously at work until these goals are met— only in heaven.
Two profound ironies on this point appear: 1) despite the insistence on the integrity of the immutable doctrinal
“foundation,” conservative Protestants willingly accept the drastic reshaping of doctrines away from their biblical
emphases. Oddly enough, this reshaping has happened through the acceptance of now discredited Greek philosophical
premises and the evolution of systematic theology over two millennia. For proof of this, contrast the
biblical emphases on the doctrines of the Holy Spirit and the kingdom of God against systematic theology of
Protestant orthodoxy. Since we have been raised with these grotesque distortions of emphasis, we remain
comfortable with them.
2) Moreover, conservative Protestants in practice hold to a continuing apostleship insofar as they cite as the
final authority their denominational and traditional leaders such as Luther, Calvin and Wesley. In many writings,
the teachings of these leaders appear with greater frequency and authority than even the apostles of the New
Testament itself.
3. To preserve the argument claiming that the “foundation” is the first generation of the Church, Christ as
“cornerstone” must lie at the same chronological level as the apostles and prophets. That is, Christ must be part
of the first generation “foundation”.16 Hence, the cessationist argument-by-analogy collapses if Christ is not
limited to the “foundation” in Eph. 2.20.
The foundation metaphor probably echoes the tradition of Jesus about Peter’s revelation/confession: “You are
Peter (Petros) and upon this rock [petra] (the revelation about Christ) I will build my church” (Mt. 16.18). This
“rock” seems to consist of a revelatory process and its content— a revelation of Christ and his significance. Hence
in Eph. 2.20 apostles and prophets represent the “foundation” of the church, of which Christ Jesus is the
“cornerstone,” “key-stone” or “head of the corner,” who, via the Spirit, continually and individually reveals Himself,
holds the structure together, both from above and from below (I Cor. 3.11).17 Since Christ seems to be
portrayed not only as a foundation stone but also as a final stone in the temple of God, Eph. 2.20 argues against
the cessationist chronological schema of successive generations of believers (courses of stones) being built on the
deposit of doctrine represented by the apostles and prophets.
The death of Christ does not spell the end of his work in the church via the Spirit (and His gifts). If He
continues to be “fitted into” each person in the temple who exists “in Him” or “in the Lord,” then the implications
for this continuing activity for the other parts of the “foundation” are interesting indeed. Do we not have here the
same idea as in Eph. 1.21-22, where Christ permeates the church “not only in the present age, but also in the one
to come”? The pattern here suggests that the activity and presence of Christ is not limited to an initiatory period in
this age, followed by inactivity, followed by more of His presence in the age to come, as Warfield suggested.18 Like
Christ, the presence and activity of apostles and prophets are continuous in this present age.
4. The most unsettling premise of the “foundational” argument is the notion employed of what ultimately is the
“foundation”— the most important element or core value— of the church. Some cessationists appear to be insisting
that the “foundation” is the established doctrine of the New Testament documents. As one committed to the
infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, I would never seek to minimize the central significance of the Bible for
faith. Nevertheless, the Bible in general, and Ephesians in particular, does not identify itself as the foundational
core of the church. Rather, this “foundational core” is the ongoing series of revelatory encounters with Christ,
which open our hearts to the Scriptures. The disclosure experience of Christ, although within its biblical
framework, is truly the foundation of the church. St. Paul was concerned that Christians’ faith rested not on words,
but on “a demonstration of the Spirit’s power” (I Cor. 2.14).
Christian cessationist Fundamentalism lies close to the rabbinic tradition of “it is not in heaven”— meaning that
the Torah was given once and for all— and that ultimate religious authority now rests with the interpretive abilities
of the scribes, as against any further miraculous or revelatory experience. Cessationists tend to model their
salvation-history after the dubious rabbinic doctrine that after the last book in the Tanakh (Old Testament) God
would send no more prophets.19 Cessationists may counter that they still uphold the doctrine of illumination, the
view that the Spirit continues its “revelatory” work in the clarification and application of Scripture. This is a sound
and biblical position, but one that is often ignored in practice.20 In any case, the doctrine of illumination is no
substitute for the life-changing spiritual encounter with Christ or His continuing revelatory gifts of the Spirit,
though they do work together.
A central aspect of the Messiah’s coming was to inaugurate the age of the (prophetic) Spirit,21 to fulfill the Law;
to move the center of perceiving God’s mind and will into the heart (the spiritual center of perception), away from
the external coercion of the Law. The scribal suppression of the Spirit’s revelatory presence prompted Jesus to say,
“You know [in the sense of “divinely understand”] neither the Scriptures nor the power of God!” The loss of one
necessarily indicated the loss of both. It was against this Judaizing tendency among the Galatians that an
exasperated Paul asked, “Having begun in the [revelatory, miracle-working] Spirit, will you now be completed in
the [Godless human abilities] of the flesh?”
Conclusion
Our friend George need not fear. Cessationism is an increasingly beleaguered position represented by three
concentric circles. Many strongest defenders of cessationism in the inner circle are defecting to more modern
“mediator” positions, who can see both sides and respect the arguments of charismatics, but still resist personal
change. But this second circle in turn is losing defectors to the outer circle of the “open-but-cautious” position. It
may well be that if present trends continue, and we speak the truth in love, that our friend George will one day
discover that cessationism has taken its rightful place in the Museum of Theological Curiosities beside the “gap
theory” of creation, the bodily ascension of Mary, and the doctrine that Mussolini is the antichrist.
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
25
0
#2
Gods alive and well. The same yesterday as today. Thank God for miracles and healings.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#3
exasperated Paul asked, “Having begun in the [revelatory, miracle-working] Spirit, will you now be completed in
the [Godless human abilities] of the flesh?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
I think the real heresy of the Galation judaisers is lost in this paper. As well as the logic of the
paper in general. With hair splitting reasoning. What Christian would ever doubt the necessity
of the Holyspirit in all that we do? From illumination of both the scriptures to a personal knowledge
of Christ Jesus. How thats done is the debate. Not if its done. :)
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,321
1,039
113
#4
To say that the gifts of the spirit have ceased is a lie strait from the pits of hell
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#5
All who are truly born again should agree that the Bible alone is the standard for Christian living and doctrine. Despite what certain denominations might teach, nowhere in the Bible does Scripture state clearly or extensively that gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased during current dispensation (for lack of a better word) commonly known as the Church Age.

In order to fully understand and embrace sound doctrine, we must understand that there are many themes that appear consistently throughout Scripture. It is from these themes which we derive our doctrine. Themes such as Jesus as the Christ, salvation by faith alone and not works, imputed righteousness and the process of sanctification, just to name a few. These themes can be proven because they appear time and time again in the Scriptures. Taking this into consideration, let's take a look at the one and only passage of scripture Cessationists can find which they believe confirms the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer relative for today.

1 Corinthians 13: 8-12 (New King James Version)

"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

There are two basic views held by Cessationists. I have heard many attempt to explain away the gifts using both which, to me, makes little sense seeing as these views tend to conflict with one another. However, for the sake of discussion, let's review both.

The first view is more common. It proclaims that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is a complete canon of Scripture (the Bible) which resulted in the end of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues) because they are somehow no longer needed. The problem with this view is that, throughout the centuries, Christian bishops and scholars have debated heavily as to which books should be included in the canon and which should not. The Bible used traditionally by Catholics for over 1500 years contains more books than the Bible used by the Eastern Orthodox Church; which, by the way, has been around just as long if not longer than Catholicism. The Eastern Orthodox Bible contains more books than your typical Protestant Bible. There are also many different translations of the Protestant bible (which vary in interpretation) each possessing equal validity to the meaning of their interpretations. Because of everything that I have just listed, there is no way to know with absolute certainty that the Bible you now hold in your hands is indeed the complete canon of scripture.

The second view makes a bit more sense, however, it is every bit as controversial and questionable as the first. That view hangs on the idea that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is the kingdom of God promised during the millennium. I tend to agree with this assessment, although however, the million dollar question is: “Are we currently living in the millennium, a doctrine commonly referred to as Amillennialism, or is the millennium yet to come, also known as Premillennialism?”

I believe the key to unlocking this Scripture's intended meaning rests in verse 12:

'For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.'

Notice that Paul uses the terms face to face and as I also am known. I find it difficult to believe that Paul is referring to a place or a period of time because both terms imply personal interaction of some sort. This leads me to believe that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is not a thing, a place or a time, but rather he is referring to an actual person.
Let's go back to the original topic. We can safely derive our doctrine according to scriptural themes found throughout the Bible. We can safely discern the central themes of the Bible given the number of times a subject is discussed and how these discussions compare to and agree with one another. Taking all of the writings of the New Testament into consideration, I have yet to find a single theme that does not revolve around the return of Jesus Christ. All of the apostles believed and professed what many today would refer to as the doctrine of 'imminence'. This is the belief that Jesus could return at any time. Everything they taught and everything they did was in preparation for the Lord's return. I believe that we can safely assume that Imminence is the central theme of all of the New Testament epistles regardless of the author. Jesus himself refers to Imminence numerous times throughout his own teachings in the four gospels as well as the angels early in the book of Acts. Just how or why can we justify interpreting 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 through any means other than Imminence? You can't.

(Note: While many Premillennialists attempt to use the Doctrine of Imminence to support the Pretribulation Rapture theory, Imminence can be traced back to the Apostolic era while, historically, the Pretribulation Rapture theory is less than 200 years old.)

In my honest and humble opinion, this controversy is settled. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will not cease until the physical return of Jesus Christ. Anything else is poor exegesis (an explanation or critical interpretation especially of the Bible) of Scripture.


 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#6
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines." - Hebrews 13:8-9 (NKJ)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#7
Saying Jesus is the same...... is always used to say things are the same always....that is so wrong.
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
#8
exasperated Paul asked, “Having begun in the [revelatory, miracle-working] Spirit, will you now be completed in
the [Godless human abilities] of the flesh?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
:)
Exactly - hence the need for the fullness of the Spiriit of God at work today in His people. Offices/gifts/graces/His way not our own.
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
#9
All who are truly born again should agree that the Bible alone is the standard for Christian living and doctrine. Despite what certain denominations might teach, nowhere in the Bible does Scripture state clearly or extensively that gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased during current dispensation (for lack of a better word) commonly known as the Church Age.

In order to fully understand and embrace sound doctrine, we must understand that there are many themes that appear consistently throughout Scripture. It is from these themes which we derive our doctrine. Themes such as Jesus as the Christ, salvation by faith alone and not works, imputed righteousness and the process of sanctification, just to name a few. These themes can be proven because they appear time and time again in the Scriptures. Taking this into consideration, let's take a look at the one and only passage of scripture Cessationists can find which they believe confirms the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer relative for today.

1 Corinthians 13: 8-12 (New King James Version)

"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

There are two basic views held by Cessationists. I have heard many attempt to explain away the gifts using both which, to me, makes little sense seeing as these views tend to conflict with one another. However, for the sake of discussion, let's review both.

The first view is more common. It proclaims that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is a complete canon of Scripture (the Bible) which resulted in the end of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues) because they are somehow no longer needed. The problem with this view is that, throughout the centuries, Christian bishops and scholars have debated heavily as to which books should be included in the canon and which should not. The Bible used traditionally by Catholics for over 1500 years contains more books than the Bible used by the Eastern Orthodox Church; which, by the way, has been around just as long if not longer than Catholicism. The Eastern Orthodox Bible contains more books than your typical Protestant Bible. There are also many different translations of the Protestant bible (which vary in interpretation) each possessing equal validity to the meaning of their interpretations. Because of everything that I have just listed, there is no way to know with absolute certainty that the Bible you now hold in your hands is indeed the complete canon of scripture.

The second view makes a bit more sense, however, it is every bit as controversial and questionable as the first. That view hangs on the idea that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is the kingdom of God promised during the millennium. I tend to agree with this assessment, although however, the million dollar question is: “Are we currently living in the millennium, a doctrine commonly referred to as Amillennialism, or is the millennium yet to come, also known as Premillennialism?”

I believe the key to unlocking this Scripture's intended meaning rests in verse 12:

'For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.'

Notice that Paul uses the terms face to face and as I also am known. I find it difficult to believe that Paul is referring to a place or a period of time because both terms imply personal interaction of some sort. This leads me to believe that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is not a thing, a place or a time, but rather he is referring to an actual person.
Let's go back to the original topic. We can safely derive our doctrine according to scriptural themes found throughout the Bible. We can safely discern the central themes of the Bible given the number of times a subject is discussed and how these discussions compare to and agree with one another. Taking all of the writings of the New Testament into consideration, I have yet to find a single theme that does not revolve around the return of Jesus Christ. All of the apostles believed and professed what many today would refer to as the doctrine of 'imminence'. This is the belief that Jesus could return at any time. Everything they taught and everything they did was in preparation for the Lord's return. I believe that we can safely assume that Imminence is the central theme of all of the New Testament epistles regardless of the author. Jesus himself refers to Imminence numerous times throughout his own teachings in the four gospels as well as the angels early in the book of Acts. Just how or why can we justify interpreting 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 through any means other than Imminence? You can't.

(Note: While many Premillennialists attempt to use the Doctrine of Imminence to support the Pretribulation Rapture theory, Imminence can be traced back to the Apostolic era while, historically, the Pretribulation Rapture theory is less than 200 years old.)

In my honest and humble opinion, this controversy is settled. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will not cease until the physical return of Jesus Christ. Anything else is poor exegesis (an explanation or critical interpretation especially of the Bible) of Scripture.


Clear, concise, informative. Great post Crossfire, thanks for contributing. :)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#10
Exactly - hence the need for the fullness of the Spiriit of God at work today in His people. Offices/gifts/graces/His way not our own.
I do not think that was the intent at all of the
Galatians context whatsoever.
But something you have added which robs it of its meaning.

If you want to make a case for gifts that would be rather easy but
go the some proper places in the bible to do that. :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#11
All who are truly born again should agree that the Bible alone is the standard for Christian living and doctrine.

a continuationist forfeits their right to claim Sola Scriptura.
if God is revealing new things, The Bible is not the final authority, the new prophet or apostle or "word of knowledge" is.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#12
a continuationist forfeits their right to claim Sola Scriptura.
if God is revealing new things, The Bible is not the final authority, the new prophet or apostle or "word of knowledge" is.
Word of knowledge??? Thought that was to deal with personal intimate details between God and a person via a vessel so to speak. Can u please expound in what sense you mean "foundational" being "knowledge" in that sense please zone.
I saw in the other thread you gave a most articulate viewpoint on cessationism that I found impressive 


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#13
Word of knowledge??? Thought that was to deal with personal intimate details between God and a person via a vessel so to speak. Can u please expound in what sense you mean "foundational" being "knowledge" in that sense please zone.
I saw in the other thread you gave a most articulate viewpoint on cessationism that I found impressive 


that's the charismatic definition of knowledge, but biblically it was a revelatory gift, just like prophecy, and just as the language gifts...they were all given to super-charge the disciples who didn't have completed canon since God was still revealing it!

it was for the infant church.

even if that gift were still operational, it is not "God told me to tell you he has a great plan for your life"..."God told me to tell you your wife is cheating on you".

anybody who says continually God told me this and God told me that is being very careless, in my opinion, and perhaps should phrase their assertions to be reflective of the subjective impressions that they are.

unless that person is claiming God is appearing to them in some way and speaking directly, or they are hearing a clear and audible voice telling them something about their neighbour (why He would do this is beyond me, though He could if He desired), what they are saying is they had an impression "in their heart". a feeling. verbatim quotes from God are highly suspect: either that or forget Sola Scriptura.

this is pure subjectivity and our hearts easily deceive us. particularly if we are involved in a group that makes this sort of claim normative. these claims nullify Sola Scriptura.

God chose to compile through the foundational offices and gifts, a SINGLE SOURCE of His Plan and Will. if we are going to say that is NOT true, that means He has decided to scatter the knowledge of Him, and His Plan around the world through a million fallible sources, reverting back to THE PARTIAL, as Paul described the Ascension gifts.
 
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Aug 12, 2010
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#14
Saying Jesus is the same...... is always used to say things are the same always....that is so wrong.
Plus, if Jesus is always the same...then how do you explain him ADDING something in the shape of miraculous gifts at Pentacost?

Did God change?

If God didnt change then why cant God SUBTRACT the miraculous gifts and still remain the same?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#15
Plus, if Jesus is always the same...then how do you explain him ADDING something in the shape of miraculous gifts at Pentacost?

Did God change?

If God didnt change then why cant God SUBTRACT the miraculous gifts and still remain the same?
 

damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#16
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth;
Romans 8:5 Because the carnal is emnity against God:
Zech4:6 Not by might ,nor by power but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord
1Cor2:14 But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:niether can he know them, because they
are spititually discerned.
John3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
John 3:5 Verily ,verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
#17
that's the charismatic definition of knowledge, but biblically it was a revelatory gift, just like prophecy, and just as the language gifts...they were all given to super-charge the disciples who didn't have completed canon since God was still revealing it!

So now we have the canon we dont need to be supercharged?

it was for the infant church.

Who says? Scripture? or did you get this by revelation :p

even if that gift were still operational, it is not "God told me to tell you he has a great plan for your life"..."God told me to tell you your wife is cheating on you".

anybody who says continually God told me this and God told me that is being very careless, in my opinion, and perhaps should phrase their assertions to be reflective of the subjective impressions that they are.

True
, unless one has genuinely grown in discernment and is able to differntiate between the voice of God and self.

unless that person is claiming God is appearing to them in some way and speaking directly, or they are hearing a clear and audible voice telling them something about their neighbour (why He would do this is beyond me, [Why wouldnt He?] though He could if He desired), what they are saying is they had an impression "in their heart". a feeling. verbatim quotes from God are highly suspect: either that or forget Sola Scriptura.

this is pure subjectivity and our hearts easily deceive us. particularly if we are involved in a group that makes this sort of claim normative. these claims nullify Sola Scriptura.

God chose to compile through the foundational offices and gifts, a SINGLE SOURCE of His Plan and Will. if we are going to say that is NOT true, that means He has decided to scatter the knowledge of Him, and His Plan around the world through a million fallible sources, reverting back to THE PARTIAL, [We still are in the times of the partial, because that which is complete is not refering to the canon of scripture but the return of Christ and the full reuniting of us with Him when we know Him face to face just as we are known by Him] as Paul described the Ascension gifts.

............................
 

damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#18
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth;
Romans 8:5 Because the carnal is emnity against God:
Zech4:6 Not by might ,nor by power but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord
1Cor2:14 But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:niether can he know them, because they
are spititually discerned.
John3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
John 3:5 Verily ,verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God



Not ashamed of the gospel of Christ!Gifts are for today, so is gift of Holy Ghost!
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#19
So there is no discernment that can give knowledge nor is there teaching because it all has been taught, all the wisdom, knowledge, teachings, healings, miracles, administratations has ended by 100+ad?

Another lap round the mountain, is God still active in any capacity today??

If someone says they have an encounter with God and they genuinely had do we say "impossible" that demonic, familiar spirits etc just to be/feel/judge safe ??? At the same time denying the power by His Spirit??

I can understand grounding people in the word but do we discount everything else? Usually people who have dont hold the encounter as making them super divine.

Gods mercy goodness lovekindness is the same yesterday today and forever.

I really miss the "teaching" on cessationist just when I thought I understood it better.
Better I keep praying and keep with Jesus in my walk than being dragged back or forward to another's persons walk, God is faithful thru and thru to see me out of here on earth as long as I stick with Him and not man.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#20
............................
yes.
i know that's your position.
its your justification for the unbiblical and ever more pagan "manifestations" called The third Wave.

don't want it,
don't need it
don't need prophets
don't need words of knowledge from strangers
dont need apostles
don't need dream interpretation
k?

SOLA SCRIPTURA.