Answering the Cessationists’ Case against Continuing Spiritual Gifts

[zone]

So there is no discernment that can give knowledge nor is there teaching because it all has been taught, all the wisdom, knowledge, teachings, healings, miracles, administratations has ended by 100+ad?

Another lap round the mountain, is God still active in any capacity today??

If someone says they have an encounter with God and they genuinely had do we say "impossible" that demonic, familiar spirits etc just to be/feel/judge safe ??? At the same time denying the power by His Spirit??

I can understand grounding people in the word but do we discount everything else? Usually people who have dont hold the encounter as making them super divine.

Gods mercy goodness lovekindness is the same yesterday today and forever.

I really miss the "teaching" on cessationist just when I thought I understood it better.
Better I keep praying and keep with Jesus in my walk than being dragged back or forward to another's persons walk, God is faithful thru and thru to see me out of here on earth as long as I stick with Him and not man.


Combating Charismatic Theology: Phil Johnson

Combating Charismatic Theology* -- Phil Johnson


Cessationist Frank Turk:

I affirm that Reformation theology requires the personal action of God the Holy Spirit for the life of the Church.

I affirm that miracles happen today. No sense in prayer and believing in a sovereign God if he's not going to ever be sovereign, right?

I affirm that God is utterly capable of, and completely willing, to demonstrate "signs and wonders" at any time, in any place, according to his good pleasure and for his great purpose.

I affirm the real presence of the Holy Spirit in the church of Jesus Christ as Jesus said He would be present in John 13-15.

I affirm that the normative working of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church begins with conviction of sin and regeneration, and continues through sanctification, and through the outworking of personal gifts (e.g. - Gal 5:22-23, 1 Cor 13:4-7) for the edification of the (local) church.

I affirm the uniqueness of the office of apostle in the founding of the church.

I affirm that leadership in the church is a task wholly-empowered by the Holy Spirit to men meeting the scriptural qualifications, and that the objectives of this leadership are wholly-defined by the Holy Spirit explicitly through Scripture and implicitly as the gifts of leaders are applied to a real people in a local church.

............................................................


I deny that this work necessarily includes speaking in tongues (as in Acts 2 as well as in so-called "private prayer langauges"), healing the sick or raising the dead by explicit command, prophecy in the sense that Isaiah and John the Baptist were prophets, or any other "sign-and-wonder"-like exhibition. That is: I deny that these actions are necessary for the post-apostolic church to function as God intended.

I deny that there is any man alive today who is gifted to perform miracles as Christ and the Apostles where gifted to perform miracles.

I deny that this activity is common, normative, necessary, or in the best interest of God's people to been seen as common, normative and/or necessary. God in fact warns us against seeking signs rather than the thing signified repeatedly in the OT and NT.

I deny that this means that all believers or even all local churches will be equipped with apostles called and equipped as the 12 and Paul were called and equipped. A telling example is the role of apostles in delivering Scripture to the church.

I deny that explicitly-supernatural outworkings, or events the Bible calls "signs and wonders" (e.g. - Acts 2:1-11, Acts 3:3-7, Acts 5:1-11, Acts 9:32-35, etc.) are either normative or necessary for the on-going life of the church.

I deny the necessity of apostles for the on-going life of the church.

I deny that church leadership is like business leadership -- that is, a system of techniques that have outcomes measurable by secular metrics of success -- and further deny that merely-competant management processes yield the fruit of the Holy Spirit

Pyromaniacs: Open Letter to Mark Driscoll


i say yea and amen to all the above.

...........................................

 

[Lifelike]

yes.
i know that's your position.
its your justification for the unbiblical and ever more pagan "manifestations" called The third Wave.

don't want it,
don't need it
don't need prophets
don't need words of knowledge from strangers
dont need apostles
don't need dream interpretation
k?

SOLA SCRIPTURA.

Thats fine - dont need it, dont want it, your choice. But I have to disagree with you on its merit, I choose to believe and trust in all that God has made available for me.

 

[Abiding]

come on Lifelike get this thread rolling bud.

 

[kujo313]

Funny how Paul was teaching about Spiritual Gifts AFTER Jesus died and rose. He wrote to Timothy, whom he treated like a son. One generation passing it on to another.

A counterfeit would place the glory on anybody or anything else but God, Himself.

I believe in Spiritual Gifts and that they are still here. If you don't believe, then that's up to you. Meanwhile, there is a Spiritual War going on until the Church is out of here. We need all the help we can get.

 

[Lifelike]

come on Lifelike get this thread rolling bud.

Haha ive got better things to do - real life

 

[Muskokaman]

Warfield.............. hmmmm............... cessationist/Warfield.........I dunno.........I just have a hard time believing anybody named Warfield in a theologic debate.........

 

[Abiding]

its not that there isnt a debate. I just dont like weak arguements when it come to important issues.

 

[Muskokaman]

its not that there isnt a debate. I just dont like weak arguements when it come to important issues.

Can't blame ya for that but when you feel somethings right you just gotta say what's on your heart and that's what's in mine I understand the viewpoint of cessationists It just doesn't feel right to me I couldn't deny my heart, even if I wanted to from fear, I am just made that way. Bit of an underdog lover in me I guess I don't know!

 

[Lifelike]

its not that there isnt a debate. I just dont like weak arguements when it come to important issues.

I would love to challenge you to a real debate abiding, without all of the personal attacks that go on in here. Cessation has the weak argument and yes it is a VERY important topic because there are those that call the power of God Satan, and they call those that have the heart of God liars and tricksters. I have never seen a decent argument for cessation and when asked to provide they can only come up with one or two scriptures coupled with objective reasoning, while the bible is FULL of continuos manifestation of Gods glory through gifts and government. I wpuld not waste my time spending any real time 'arguing' with unbelievers unless it was going to be done properly and in order because i feel to do any side of the argument justice it would take a lot of work, diligence and time spent collecting scripture, developing logical reasonable arguments. The tit for tat that goes on in these chatrooms is fun but its just that, no one gives an inch and no one really cares what the other believes because they have decided what 'truth' they will defend and are completely rigid. Its easy to cut and paste but i challenge anyone that genuinely wants to put forth an honest perspective to do the study yourself and come with some real integrity in what you believe. I began this post with and article written by someone else mainly as a joke due to the way some in here operate and throw other peoples teachings around, doing no work themselves. I respect those that search the word and have an understanding of it, not those that have been convinced by man made doctrine and then attempt to make the scriptures line up with that. So until then when i get a chance i MAY jump in and throw a few statements around, but to tell u the truth i have much better people in my to spend my valuable time with rejoicing over the glory of God and His word than with a bunch of harsh callous bitter crew

 

[Abiding]

I would love to challenge you to a real debate abiding, without all of the personal attacks that go on in here. Cessation has the weak argument and yes it is a VERY important topic because there are those that call the power of God Satan, and they call those that have the heart of God liars and tricksters. I have never seen a decent argument for cessation and when asked to provide they can only come up with one or two scriptures coupled with objective reasoning, while the bible is FULL of continuos manifestation of Gods glory through gifts and government. I wpuld not waste my time spending any real time 'arguing' with unbelievers unless it was going to be done properly and in order because i feel to do any side of the argument justice it would take a lot of work, diligence and time spent collecting scripture, developing logical reasonable arguments. The tit for tat that goes on in these chatrooms is fun but its just that, no one gives an inch and no one really cares what the other believes because they have decided what 'truth' they will defend and are completely rigid. Its easy to cut and paste but i challenge anyone that genuinely wants to put forth an honest perspective to do the study yourself and come with some real integrity in what you believe. I began this post with and article written by someone else mainly as a joke due to the way some in here operate and throw other peoples teachings around, doing no work themselves. I respect those that search the word and have an understanding of it, not those that have been convinced by man made doctrine and then attempt to make the scriptures line up with that. So until then when i get a chance i MAY jump in and throw a few statements around, but to tell u the truth i have much better people in my to spend my valuable time with rejoicing over the glory of God and His word than with a bunch of harsh callous bitter crew

I wonder why youd want to challenge me to a debate? Ive never given my view on either side of the issue.
My point of weak arguements was just that. The cessationist is the one forced to make a case.

 

[Abiding]

Can't blame ya for that but when you feel somethings right you just gotta say what's on your heart and that's what's in mine I understand the viewpoint of cessationists It just doesn't feel right to me I couldn't deny my heart, even if I wanted to from fear, I am just made that way. Bit of an underdog lover in me I guess I don't know!

Not that u have but for weeks people have presumed what i believe, without even talking. I was told
it was the company i keep..haha i keep company with alot of Christians who have different views than
me.

 

[unclefester]

My reply on the topic from the other active thread concerning the matter.

What was the purpose of tongues?
1) 1 Cor 14:22 says, “Tongues then ... are a sign for unbelievers”. The word “then” (“Wherefore” in

the KJV) means that this verse is referring back to the previous verse(s).

2) 1 Cor 14:21 says that God will speak to “this people”. The New Testament term “this people”

always refers to Jews and the unbelievers being referred to in 1 Cor 14:22 (from Isa 28) were Jews.

3) In Acts, whenever tongues was used Jews were present.

4) So, the purpose of tongues was to be a sign to unbelieving Jews. One sign was to show that salvation was for the Gentiles also (hence the foreign languages). Clearly, the sign is no longer needed.

5) Tongues was also a sign of judgment against the Jews. The quote in 1 Cor 14:21-22 comes from Isaiah 28:11-13 where judgment is pronounced against Israel. Their Temple was destroyed in 70AD.
Tongues is nowhere said to be a sign of a Christian being saved through receiving the Holy Spirit, nor is it said to be either a Prayer Language, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or Tongues of Angels. These things can only be read into the text. The Bible only says that tongues was a sign to unbelieving Jews, nothing more.
The first church in Jerusalem was entirely Jewish and they badly needed convincing that Gentiles were part of God's salvation plan as they were fiercely, often violently, opposed to it. One example in Acts 11 shows this opposition and how tongues was used as a sign to verify that the Gentiles were in God's plan. Today, we have the Bible to explain the mystery of the church (Eph 3:1-6). Tongues, prophecy and knowledge are grouped because they had a limited purpose and when that purpose was served they were removed.

If the three items of 1 Cor 13:8 were not going to cease before we see Jesus, why does the Bible even mention "ceasing" ? If they were meant to be around until the end, like healing etc, why would God even bring up the matter of ceasing ? In vs.9-10, only prophecy and knowledge are spoken of in reference to perfection. Why? Because they are the very two gifts used since Genesis for the inspired writing of Scripture. With the completed Bible, these 'in part' gifts were withdrawn. Why ? It is so no one can add to the already perfect Word. There are six items mentioned in the passage 1 Cor 13:8-13. Of these six, three are said to remain and three are said to cease. Clearly, if words mean anything, three cease at some point in time while the other three remain beyond that point, until we see Jesus ... when faith and hope will also cease. Love ........ it'll always remain

 

[Red33]

My reply on the topic from the other active thread concerning the matter.

What was the purpose of tongues?
1) 1 Cor 14:22 says, “Tongues then ... are a sign for unbelievers”. The word “then” (“Wherefore” in

the KJV) means that this verse is referring back to the previous verse(s).

2) 1 Cor 14:21 says that God will speak to “this people”. The New Testament term “this people”

always refers to Jews and the unbelievers being referred to in 1 Cor 14:22 (from Isa 28) were Jews.

3) In Acts, whenever tongues was used Jews were present.

4) So, the purpose of tongues was to be a sign to unbelieving Jews. One sign was to show that salvation was for the Gentiles also (hence the foreign languages). Clearly, the sign is no longer needed.

5) Tongues was also a sign of judgment against the Jews. The quote in 1 Cor 14:21-22 comes from Isaiah 28:11-13 where judgment is pronounced against Israel. Their Temple was destroyed in 70AD.
Tongues is nowhere said to be a sign of a Christian being saved through receiving the Holy Spirit, nor is it said to be either a Prayer Language, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or Tongues of Angels. These things can only be read into the text. The Bible only says that tongues was a sign to unbelieving Jews, nothing more.
The first church in Jerusalem was entirely Jewish and they badly needed convincing that Gentiles were part of God's salvation plan as they were fiercely, often violently, opposed to it. One example in Acts 11 shows this opposition and how tongues was used as a sign to verify that the Gentiles were in God's plan. Today, we have the Bible to explain the mystery of the church (Eph 3:1-6). Tongues, prophecy and knowledge are grouped because they had a limited purpose and when that purpose was served they were removed.

If the three items of 1 Cor 13:8 were not going to cease before we see Jesus, why does the Bible even mention "ceasing" ? If they were meant to be around until the end, like healing etc, why would God even bring up the matter of ceasing ? In vs.9-10, only prophecy and knowledge are spoken of in reference to perfection. Why? Because they are the very two gifts used since Genesis for the inspired writing of Scripture. With the completed Bible, these 'in part' gifts were withdrawn. Why ? It is so no one can add to the already perfect Word. There are six items mentioned in the passage 1 Cor 13:8-13. Of these six, three are said to remain and three are said to cease. Clearly, if words mean anything, three cease at some point in time while the other three remain beyond that point, until we see Jesus ... when faith and hope will also cease. Love ........ it'll always remain

This is great post and I would like to add one thing. Faith and hope in relationship to being with Christ will cease when we are finally together with the One we hoped for and who is our hope and the One who is the author and finisher of our faith. However, the faith and hope that will never pass away is that which the word of God produced in our soul and formed Christ in us through the grace of God. That faith and hope is eternal and has given us the substance and the evidence of Christ in us.

 

[AnandaHya]

I would love to challenge you to a real debate abiding, without all of the personal attacks that go on in here. ...............So until then when i get a chance i MAY jump in and throw a few statements around, but to tell u the truth i have much better people in my to spend my valuable time with rejoicing over the glory of God and His word than with a bunch of harsh callous bitter crew

wow the irony?

maybe its just me but yeah, lets not make PERSONAL attacks when BLANKET condemning statements are so much more the rage

I actually agreed with much of your statement till the very end.

Now I just walk away sadden.

I will add though:

some people do the research by reading the Bible and then don't have time to write long post so just find someone who agrees with what they already believe and post their words to save time. In addition it allows others to pull apart the argument without making it personal and the poster feel like the other person is attacking their words instead of just disagreeing with their ideas. It is a level of protection some use, that I personally employ at times. I don't understand your objection to it.

Personally I read the Bible first. then the articles and sermons and then the Bible again and then reanalyze the sermon and then maybe I might post the idea or the insight if I think it agrees with God's word and God's Spirit approves.

 

[AnandaHya]

Not that u have but for weeks people have presumed what i believe, without even talking. I was told
it was the company i keep..haha i keep company with alot of Christians who have different views than
me.

Love u Abiding

you know what they say about the word "Ass-U-me" right?

I wish people would stop assuming they know what every cessationist believes based upon slanderous articles by some continuist who have not even bothered to learn the viewpoints of their opponents before engaging in dialog.

even a rookie knows you send a scout before you engage in battle.

I don't consider myself a cessationist because I believe in the continuation of all God's gifts. However, I do not think the offices of Apostle and prophet have been continued anymore then Jesus has to die on the cross more then once.

I would protest and say that most of the gifts and manifestations listed have continued but not in the manner many Charismatics would like to falsely portray them as manifesting.

I believe that many SIGNS and WONDERS have been preformed by FALSE Prophets and APostles that are laying the foundation for a false temple to the AntiChrist.

Discernment is needed. Love is Required. I pray everyone learns to tame their tongues.

James 3:7-9
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God

 

[Muskokaman]

Not that u have but for weeks people have presumed what i believe, without even talking. I was told
it was the company i keep..haha i keep company with alot of Christians who have different views than
me.

The more of your words I read the more I love you Abiding. Yours is a truly forgiving good spirit with just the right amount of salt for tasteSo far as the company I keep it is more publicans and sinners I consort with than any Christian I want to bring them all to God. Christians or at least those who profess Christianity are generally healthier and do not need a doctor. Those who haven't seen the light are truly in need of saving and healing gotta keep this Jesus revolution going and get it in high gear!

Selah

 

[Strangelove]

I don't consider myself a cessationist because I believe in the continuation of all God's gifts. However, I do not think the offices of Apostle and prophet have been continued anymore then Jesus has to die on the cross more then once.

I would protest and say that most of the gifts and manifestations listed have continued but not in the manner many Charismatics would like to falsely portray them as manifesting.

I believe that many SIGNS and WONDERS have been preformed by FALSE Prophets and APostles that are laying the foundation for a false temple to the AntiChrist.

Thats basically my position too.

Its not about cessationism its about totally unbiblical practices being carried out in certain churches.

 

[Muskokaman]

Thats basically my position too.

Its not about cessationism its about totally unbiblical practices being carried out in certain churches.

We will all be judged according our works Doc. I empathize with you for sure but if we focus on the negatives instead of the positives pretty soon we find ourselves immersed in negativity!
We as Christians should focus on the positives and reinforce those positives, when we see what we ascertain to be false doctrine we must practice the good doctrine and pray and hope for the Lords intervention upon those whom we percieve as Idolatrous, adulterers, murderers, thieves and all liars.
Rebuke them yes! Continual debate with them NO! because then we become just like them.
Love is the foundation and forgiveness is the key my friend.

Selah

 

[Strangelove]

We will all be judged according our works Doc. I empathize with you for sure but if we focus on the negatives instead of the positives pretty soon we find ourselves immersed in negativity!
We as Christians should focus on the positives and reinforce those positives, when we see what we ascertain to be false doctrine we must practice the good doctrine and pray and hope for the Lords intervention upon those whom we percieve as Idolatrous, adulterers, murderers, thieves and all liars.
Rebuke them yes! Continual debate with them NO! because then we become just like them.
Love is the foundation and forgiveness is the key my friend.

Selah

Well, I've been debating tonguers for years and I've yet to start waggling...

...I think I'll be ok.

 

[Lifelike]

I wonder why youd want to challenge me to a debate? Ive never given my view on either side of the issue.
My point of weak arguements was just that. The cessationist is the one forced to make a case.

I like how you keep denying your a cessationist but follow these threads arguing from the side of a cessationist consistantly lol.