Apology - I have said the h. of Israel includes gentiles

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#21
That being said, what exactly does the Bible say about this topic?
It should be quite obvious. "The house of Israel" is "the house of Israel", and only the twelve tribes of Israel belong there. Gentiles are definitely not Israelites. God does have a future plan for the house of Israel, apart from the Church. But before that He will judge the house of Israel. Now kindly note how many times that phrase is repeated in this passage from Ezekiel 3:

1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
5 For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;
6 Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.
7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.


The house of Israel was just as impudent and hardhearted when Christ was on earth as they were when Ezekiel was sent to them. But one third of all the Jews in the world will weep, and wail, and mourn for their hard-heartedness and unbelief after the Second Coming of Christ and the deliverance of Jerusalem. They will genuinely repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, as noted in Ezekiel, Zechariah, and many other books in the OT.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#22
Really? I always thought he was.

Romans 4:1 NLT - 1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?
John 8:33 NLT - 33 "But we are descendants of Abraham," they said. "We have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean, 'You will be set free'?"
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
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#23
I've realized it might have been a mistake on my part.

I'd like to just apologize to those that have saw my remark that the house of Israel includes Gentiles. Uh...

Many people seem to hold this belief that Israel is now a spiritual entity consisting of all believers, but I've recently realized that it's part of things taught by JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses aka the Watchtower), and at that point I was alerted that it might be a false doctrine, and that you might lead people astray by having this belief.

While I didn't say or believe Israel = today's believers, and was only making their house the "common returning place" (house of God) for all Christians, but I'm going to repent of it for now. I don't even want that logic.
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8 KJV

"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." - Matthew 3:9 KJV

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16 KJV

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:28-29 KJV

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" - Romans 11:17 KJV

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes." - Romans 11:25-28 KJV
 
Apr 26, 2021
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#24
Really? I always thought he was.

Romans 4:1 NLT - 1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?
John 8:33 NLT - 33 "But we are descendants of Abraham," they said. "We have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean, 'You will be set free'?"
He is Jacob's and Esau's grandfather. So, you could say he's the founder of the arabs who weren't Jews either. You can say Noah is the founder of the Jewish nation because Abraham descended from him. And Noah wasn't a Jew either. Neither was Adam. So, where do you want to begin with the Jewish nation? Why stop at Abraham? Why not go back to the beginning and just claim everybody is Jewish?
 
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#25
Really? I always thought he was.

Romans 4:1 NLT - 1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?
John 8:33 NLT - 33 "But we are descendants of Abraham," they said. "We have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean, 'You will be set free'?"
I clicked save before I posted my citation.

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#26
He is Jacob's and Esau's grandfather. So, you could say he's the founder of the arabs who weren't Jews either. You can say Noah is the founder of the Jewish nation because Abraham descended from him. And Noah wasn't a Jew either. Neither was Adam. So, where do you want to begin with the Jewish nation? Why stop at Abraham? Why not go back to the beginning and just claim everybody is Jewish?
I see. I'm not "saying" anything. I was just letting the Bible do the talking. I'm just a human that isn't very smart. :)
 
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#29
My apologies. You did cite something that I didn't recognize. It's because I'm under siege by the cicadas at the moment. They are screaming at my back door trying to break into my house. Literally. Can't wait 'til they're gone.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

That's KJV. He's not talking to Jewish people but to Romans declaring Abraham to be "our father." He's not declaring Abraham as the founder of the Jewish nation either. So, I don't know why we have 2 versions and 2 completely different statements.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#30
My apologies. You did cite something that I didn't recognize. It's because I'm under siege by the cicadas at the moment. They are screaming at my back door trying to break into my house. Literally. Can't wait 'til they're gone.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

That's KJV. He's not talking to Jewish people but to Romans declaring Abraham to be "our father." He's not declaring Abraham as the founder of the Jewish nation either. So, I don't know why we have 2 versions and 2 completely different statements.
I'm not interested in arguing. I don't have it in me.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#32
are you sure they are JW? a lot of people -- a lot -- believe there is no more Israel, and the church has taken their place, 'replacing' them - that God broke all His promises to them for their future, giving those promises to us instead. that's not what makes a person a JW. there are all kinds of other churches that believe that. it was a lot easier for them to believe that before 1948.. :unsure:

anyway wow that's crazy, because Galatians 6:16 actually tells us the opposite -- it proves there's a difference between "us" and
"the Israel of God"

look:
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul's saying peace and mercy be upon some people.
which people?
peace and mercy be upon two groups of people:
  1. whoever walks by this rule ((v.14 - let me only boast in Christ and nothing else))
  2. the Israel of God


peace and mercy be upon:
  • everyone who boasts in nothing but Christ
and
  • the Israel of God


make sense? Galatians 6:16 proves that "the Israel of God" is a distinct category of people different from "everyone who walks according to this rule"
whoever told you that is reading this verse as 'peace be on all who keep this rule; they are the Israel of God'
but that is not what scripture says.
what it says is "and"
We DO NOT believe that God BROKE HIS PROMIS to Israel. THEY are the ones who BROKE the Covenant when they DENIED Jesus the Promise Messiah. Scripture (that I posted) is PERFECTLY CLEAR that the 1st Covenant waxed old and passed away because of the unbelief of the Jews that denied Jesus. Scripture also is clear that God, through His salvation plan for ALL mankind, established His Church of which Jesus is the Master.

The Jews who believed in Jesus, and converted to Christianity, of which there were many, were the firsfruits of this Salvation Plan. We, the gentiles, become worthy of being called the children of God, and Heirs to the Promise through the precious blood of Jesus.

IMO: Any person that denies that the One Church established by God through Jesus IS NOT the New Covenant Israel denies Jesus. The ONLY WAY the unbelieving Jews who still practice the Law of the 1st Covenant can remain the Israel of God is if the New Covenant, the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus is a LIE and of no avail.

I refuse to believe that. The entire Gospel of Jesus establishes the New Covenant where ALL who believe in Jesus are the Children of God, NOT just the Jews, and especially NOT THE UNBELIEVING Jews.

I am perplexed how anyone can not understand the New Covenant, Grace, and what it is.


Romans, Chapter 9:


24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


(very clear)

As for the Jews that will be GRAFTED back in (natural branches), there is a caveat:



Romans 11:23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

(very clear)

The Jews MUST confess the Name of Jesus, turn from their practice of the Law of the 1st Covenant, and join in with the Church of God that is CHRISTIANITY! IF they are to be grafted back in.

The Jews who denied Jesus (since the day He began His Ministry) and died in their unbelief are lost for all time! If it is ANY OTHER WAY, than the Gospel of Jesus is a LIE!

John, 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is either the Truth or a Lie. As for me and my house, we believe what Jesus said!

For those who believe that the Jews still practicing the Law of the 1st Covenant will actually be granted eternal life and be rewarded in Heaven..........PLEASE TELL ME HOW?

If it is true................EVERYTHING in the New Testament is a LIE.......
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#33
Who are all the numerous grains of sand and stars of Abraham? Abraham wasn't a Jew. There was no Israel or Hebrew nation at that time. God declared He was the God of Abraham first, then God says He's the God of Isaac and Jacob, then Israel. Then He says He's the LORD of hosts.

He certainly appears to be the God of a mixed multitude.
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
 
Feb 26, 2021
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#34
are you sure they are JW?

anyway wow that's crazy, because Galatians 6:16 actually tells us the opposite -- it proves there's a difference between "us" and
"the Israel of God"
Actually, I've already told him that. And yes, he is a JW who's been with them for well over 30 years. So don't get me started...

  • "και επι (on) τον ισραηλ (Israel) του θεου (of God)"

This word "και" is the conjunction that usually acts as "And", but as @notmyown mentioned, it can translate to "even" and "namely (explicative)," so his (JW's) counterargument is that, considering the whole context of Galatians, what Paul meant must have been "namely", and therefore "All" = "Israel of God".

This is a valid perspective, I suppose, but in terms of the context, my view is that Paul was concerned over CONVERTS that were being pushed to circumcision, according to Moses' law after grafted into the eternal covenant, so the target audience was mainly non-Jews. Hence I think he was putting an emphasis on Israel who received the first covenant so as to show that they are not an exception to this spiritual rule.

However, even if my point above is irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that this term "Israel of God" only appears this once in the entire canonical scripture, and there is not a solid enough basis founded to claim an idea like he does. That said, if Paul had meant to call the assembly of Christians "Israel," he would've used the term more often. But if so, why didn't the other apostles like Peter call the foreign believers Israel? There has to be more supporting evidence to back it up.
 
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#35
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth,
Who are all the numerous grains of sand and stars of Abraham? Abraham wasn't a Jew. There was no Israel or Hebrew nation at that time.
  • Isa 66:8 Who has heard such a thing? and who has seen after this manner? Has the earth travailed in one day? or has even a nation been born at once, that Sion has travailed, and brought forth her children?

  • 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
And what is this nation? Isaiah says basically a nation was born of Israel.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#36
well, to be accurate, what it says is kai. :)

in Greek, this conjunction doesn't always mean something like, "in addition to", as two disparate ideas.
it often connects what follows with a thought that has preceded it.

that's why some translations (NIV, BSB, CSB) use the word "even".
i'm not saying you're incorrect here; just that you may be thinking of it as a mathematician (quelle suprise lol) and not as a linguist would. ♥
Thank you :)


Actually, I've already told him that. And yes, he is a JW who's been with them for well over 30 years. So don't get me started...

  • "και επι (on) τον ισραηλ (Israel) του θεου (of God)"

This word "και" is the conjunction that usually acts as "And", but as @notmyown mentioned, it can translate to "even" and "namely (explicative)," so his (JW's) counterargument is that, considering the whole context of Galatians, what Paul meant must have been "namely", and therefore "All" = "Israel of God".

This is a valid perspective, I suppose, but in terms of the context, my view is that Paul was concerned over CONVERTS that were being pushed to circumcision, according to Moses' law after grafted into the eternal covenant, so the target audience was mainly non-Jews. Hence I think he was putting an emphasis on Israel who received the first covenant so as to show that they are not an exception to this spiritual rule.

However, even if my point above is irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that this term "Israel of God" only appears this once in the entire canonical scripture, and there is not a solid enough basis founded to claim an idea like he does. That said, if Paul had meant to call the assembly of Christians "Israel," he would've used the term more often. But if so, why didn't the other apostles like Peter call the foreign believers Israel? There has to be more supporting evidence to back it up.
And thank you too :)

For my part, I think it's clear that Paul spends a great deal of time speaking of Israel as a seperate entity from the church. In fact much of Galatians is establishing that distinction - Hagar and Sarah are two covenants..? And it's Abraham we are conjoined with through our faith, not Jacob ;)
 
Apr 26, 2021
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#38
  • Isa 66:8 Who has heard such a thing? and who has seen after this manner? Has the earth travailed in one day? or has even a nation been born at once, that Sion has travailed, and brought forth her children?

  • 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
And what is this nation? Isaiah says basically a nation was born of Israel.
Abraham is the father of people of the covenant. God made the covenant with Abraham and his children. He had Moses give ancient Israel the law. There is a distinction. And Jesus told the Pharisees, they were not the children of Abraham.

This is why Israel is comprised of children of the covenant, which includes non Jews. So, if you limit Israel to just the Jewish people, then you must believe that Abraham isn't the father of anyone else.

Now if the is JW teaching or doctrine, I don't know. But it is correct doctrine.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
1,572
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#39
I'm also not interested in discussing with you because of your ultra-rude "ZZZZ" emojis that you like to issue. Your attitude is incredibly unchristian. Best of luck to you.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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#40
Thank you :)




And thank you too :)

For my part, I think it's clear that Paul spends a great deal of time speaking of Israel as a seperate entity from the church. In fact much of Galatians is establishing that distinction - Hagar and Sarah are two covenants..? And it's Abraham we are conjoined with through our faith, not Jacob ;)
I understand your point. And I think there is confusion here in the premise of this entire thread. As I have learned through my studies, God makes "final" statements about Israel such that one understands the Abrahamic covenant to also understand Israel is mixed of Jews and non Jews who have one thing in common, they are both branches of the same olive tree, the few natural branches and the wild branches that are grafted in among them. The fulness of that tree is Israel. I believe that Romans Chapter 11 (whole chapter) teaches us about the spiritual construct of Israel comprising of both Jew and gentile.

That is my understanding. Others have different understanding, but there is only one truth and God teaches truth to his faithful. Hopefully that is me and I understand the spiritual truth of this matter. But, I could be as blind as the next person. It's a process, a long wonderful process coming to truth.