Apostasy 101

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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No one just decides, a command is issued first then one decides to obey or not.

Heb 5 says Jesus became a source of salvation for all who obey Him, it doesn't say He became a source of salvation for those He appointed (by putting fruit of obedience in them) to obey Him; where will that leave others if indeed God desires that all men be saved?

Yes, we come to the Lord to receive rest and we enter into rest but Rev 14 tells us when that rest comes, it comes when we die in Christ. It is also very clear that as long as we are still living in these bodies, we labor in Christ.
I thought you wrongly believed that one has to keep the jewish Sabbath to get rest. and be saved.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The Lord Jesus tells us to come to Him and receive Rest. Right now. Before you die.

Hebrews 4 tells us that we enter into Rest because we believe in Christ. Not because we die.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The Lord Jesus tells us to come to Him and receive Rest. Right now. Before you die.

Hebrews 4 tells us that we enter into Rest because we believe in Christ. Not because we die.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Isa 57:
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.

2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.

Rev 14:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

"..Come to me and i will give you rest ..."
True, but that rest is after you die as per the scriptures so don't get it twisted.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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I already explained this to you in post #258. Now go back and read it slowly and carefully until the truth finally sinks in: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-13
Yes, I know.
You say they can't be real believers because they quit believing.
Every time you see failed believing you instantly see a fake believer, and instantly reject the possibility of a believer losing his salvation, or in danger of losing his salvation.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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I already thoroughly explained this in post #19. Be sure to go back and read it slowly and carefully until the truth finally sinks in: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
Yes, I know. You're doing it again.
Since they did not persevere you instantly reject any suggestion or proof that the person was ever saved to begin with and so you decide that 'sanctified' can only be in reference to unbelievers made clean for contact by believers. Even though the writer himself says that 'sanctified' is the person forever made perfect in Christ (a saved person). And that the writer says 'forever' means that Christ's ministry does not need to be repeated, not that you can't lose it.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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How am I condemning myself?
Because you say that only 4th type of soil people are saved.
I'm quite confident that you spend most of your time in soil #3. Bet.
Hey, if I'm wrong, good for you. And I mean that.
But my observation of myself and the church in general tells me you're a 3rd type of soil believer most of the time. You're saved, but the pace and demands and challenges of life choke out the qualities of patience, mercy, joy, and calmness to the point that you are pretty much indiscernible from the unbeliever.

So it's fruit of the Spirit vs. active works of righteousness, which is not a fruit of the Spirit? o_O Then why are they called works of "righteousness?" (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness).
The fruit of the Spirit describes character qualities, which don't necessarily have to find expression in a specific active work (i.e. joy). And so according to your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower, unless you are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit in a type 4 soil life of fruitfulness you are not saved. And since you are more likely characterized by a lack of the fruit of the Spirit in a type 3 soil life you are by your own definition not saved. And never have been.

So I'd back up a bit and reconsider your hard line on those you instantly consider not saved and, therefore, have never been saved, in the Parable of the Sower. ;)
 
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“Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." - John 13:10

You've been made clean in Christ, but your walk is not clean. The bath was a one time happening, and does not need to be repeated. The washing of the feet in your walk of life is a life long repetitious process.
 
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That's a new twist. Usually, people in the NOSAS camp teach that soil #2 and #3 represent saved people who lost their salvation, but you teach they are definitely saved and may even stay the course and progress. Interesting. I'm hearing your own personal logic mixed in with your doctrine.
No, I think you mean people in the works salvation camp teach soils #2 and #3 are not saved. You are making a HUGE mistake when you instantly equate works salvation with believing you can lose your salvation. HUGE!

And, no, I did not say soil #2 is definitely saved. It can represent the person who never believed, or the person who falls away from faith in Christ. They can fall away and never come back. Or the word in them can become more deeply rooted as their heart changes to soil #3 or #4.

And, no, this has nothing to do with personal logic. It has a lot to do with personal observation and experience. In fact, my soil #2 experience was before my salvation before I had the 'Spirit' part of 'water and Spirit'. My wife's soil #2 experience was after she was saved and had received a gift of the Spirit.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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parable of the 4 soils depicts 4 different types of soil on which the seed/the word lands and says nothing about progressive soil. I'm sorry but in regards to #2 soil, no root, no fruit, lacks moisture, withers away does not spell out saved to me.
Well, I'm glad you got right to the 4th type of soil when you were saved :), but you're dead wrong to project your personal experience onto everyone else and condemn them as not being saved, and never have been saved, because the word of God is not as deeply rooted and flourishing in them as it is in you.

But as I'm suggesting, because fruitfulness is referring to the qualities of the Spirit (peace, joy, patience, etc.) and not necessarily outward works, you probably are not spending as much time as a 4th type of soil believer as you think you are, which according to your biased interpretation of the Parable of the Sower means you are not saved, and never have been. Are you still willing to go there?
 
Jan 5, 2020
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amazing how all you legalists ( and the judeaizers) use 1st John to attempt to prove salvation by command keeping.

but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".

so, to believe is to obey. and I have already schooled you as to what " believe" mean, you are well aware of the meaning.
I was wondering if you could help me. You are calling certain individuals legalists, and then saying they miss-understand the words believe and obey.

Jesus who we (the elect) love, said our expression in our lives will be to obey His commands.
And His commands are about love, sacrifice and service for others.

Are you criticising people for saying they love, sacrifice and serve others as an expression of their love, as trying to prove the love they do not have by trying to love, sacrifice and serve?

The group you are talking about, could be faking it all, and trying to prove something they are not, or they could be actually testifying to what God has done in their souls, and witnessing to His great work.

If I met Jesus, and decided He must be fake because no one could speak and live like Him, would I know God?
As I do not know anyone here, and only can go by what they share, I try and believe the best about them, on face value.

Am I wrong to do this, or should I take a different approach?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Yes, I know. You say they can't be real believers because they quit believing.
Every time you see failed believing you instantly see a fake believer, and instantly reject the possibility of a believer losing his salvation, or in danger of losing his salvation.
Why are you so obsessed with believing that real believers/those who are born of God can and do lose their salvation and also why are you so obsessed with trying to convince me to believe that? Why are you so obsessed with NOSAS? :unsure:
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Yes, I know. You're doing it again. Since they did not persevere you instantly reject any suggestion or proof that the person was ever saved to begin with and so you decide that 'sanctified' can only be in reference to unbelievers made clean for contact by believers. Even though the writer himself says that 'sanctified' is the person forever made perfect in Christ (a saved person). And that the writer says 'forever' means that Christ's ministry does not need to be repeated, not that you can't lose it.
As I already explained numerous times, in context, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately, continuous action, a matter of practice. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Also, if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. *NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation."

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the word 'sanctified' to refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" without experiencing salvation as Paul explained.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

It looks someone else from the Hebrews 10v26 thread gets it! (y)

Like Judas, I believe that those being discussed in Hebrews 10:26-27 were 1st Century Jewish ~almost~ Christians, IOW, they were Jews who knew who Jesus was, but who never came to saving faith in Him, NEVER became Christians. Instead, they continued to reject Him as their Lord and Savior and turned back to Judaism, but in doing so, they also turned away from the one and only sacrifice for their sins (as was confirmed earlier in the same Chapter, the blood of bulls and goats cannot save anyone .. Hebrews 10:4). I continue:

Habitual sin/living a life that is characterized by sin (a sinful "lifestyle", if you will) is what the unregenerate are guilty of, NOT believers. That's the additional point that I was attempting to make here, that no one who God has changed and caused to be born again continues on in their new life in Christ in the same manner that they lived it before they were saved, in continual/habitual sin, as a "lifestyle". If they do, then I believe that their claim of becoming a Christian should not be regarded as anything more than that, a "claim".

As the Apostle John also tells us,

1 John 3

9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Jesus saved us from the penalty of our sins, but He also saved from our former inclination/desire to continue in sin in this life. Though we all continue to sin (and still need to seek forgiveness for it whenever we do), true believers do not sin like we did before we were saved, habitually/as a lifestyle. When we sinned as non-Christians, we did so ~according~ to our (fallen) nature, but when true Christians sin, we do so ~against~ our new nature .. cf Ephesians 4:22-24.
:):):)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Because you say that only 4th type of soil people are saved.
Only the 4th soil produced fruit in various quantities, so I guess fruitless faith represents saving faith anyway? Faith without works is dead only applies in James 2?

I'm quite confident that you spend most of your time in soil #3. Bet. Hey, if I'm wrong, good for you. And I mean that. But my observation of myself and the church in general tells me you're a 3rd type of soil believer most of the time. You're saved, but the pace and demands and challenges of life choke out the qualities of patience, mercy, joy, and calmness to the point that you are pretty much indiscernible from the unbeliever.
You seem to view these various soils as revolving doors for believers. These soils represent our heart, the seed represents the word and the types of soil the word lands in determines the outcome.

The fruit of the Spirit describes character qualities, which don't necessarily have to find expression in a specific active work (i.e. joy). And so according to your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower, unless you are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit in a type 4 soil life of fruitfulness you are not saved. And since you are more likely characterized by a lack of the fruit of the Spirit in a type 3 soil life you are by your own definition not saved. And never have been.
So if someone is saved will they produce fruit or not? Does fruitless faith represent saving faith to you? I believe that ALL genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. How much fruit did the #2 and #3 soil produce? I see NONE. Only the 4th soil produced fruit.

So I'd back up a bit and reconsider your hard line on those you instantly consider not saved and, therefore, have never been saved, in the Parable of the Sower. ;)
So fruitless faith is still saving faith according to you? Would James agree with that? (James 2:14)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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“Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." - John 13:10

You've been made clean in Christ, but your walk is not clean. The bath was a one time happening, and does not need to be repeated. The washing of the feet in your walk of life is a life long repetitious process.
This we can agree on. :)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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No, I think you mean people in the works salvation camp teach soils #2 and #3 are not saved. You are making a HUGE mistake when you instantly equate works salvation with believing you can lose your salvation. HUGE!
Generally, people in the works salvation camp (who also teach NOSAS) teach that #2 and #3 soils represent saved individuals who lost their salvation. Equating works salvation with believing you can lose your salvation in most cases (but not all) are tied together. Even people who teach we are saved through faith, not works who subscribe to NOSAS seem to have "type 2 works salvation" continuously knocking at their back door, even if they don't end up answering the door.

And, no, I did not say soil #2 is definitely saved. It can represent the person who never believed, or the person who falls away from faith in Christ. They can fall away and never come back. Or the word in them can become more deeply rooted as their heart changes to soil #3 or #4.
You are the first person in the NOSAS camp that I heard say soil #2 can represent a person who never believed. You are full of surprises! ;)

And, no, this has nothing to do with personal logic. It has a lot to do with personal observation and experience. In fact, my soil #2 experience was before my salvation before I had the 'Spirit' part of 'water and Spirit'. My wife's soil #2 experience was after she was saved and had received a gift of the Spirit.
You seem to view these different soils as revolving and evolving experiences. :unsure:
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I was wondering if you could help me. You are calling certain individuals legalists, and then saying they miss-understand the words believe and obey.

Jesus who we (the elect) love, said our expression in our lives will be to obey His commands.
And His commands are about love, sacrifice and service for others.

Are you criticising people for saying they love, sacrifice and serve others as an expression of their love, as trying to prove the love they do not have by trying to love, sacrifice and serve?

The group you are talking about, could be faking it all, and trying to prove something they are not, or they could be actually testifying to what God has done in their souls, and witnessing to His great work.

If I met Jesus, and decided He must be fake because no one could speak and live like Him, would I know God?
As I do not know anyone here, and only can go by what they share, I try and believe the best about them, on face value.

Am I wrong to do this, or should I take a different approach?
you are wrong. you and chris teach a works based salvation. this " trying to be nice post" does not change that.

and, I do not try and believe the best of others here. I believe, promote , and stand up for truth. that is what I believe in.

the only thing it takes for one to be saved is faith and trust in Christ. every thing else is a separate conversation.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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you are wrong. you and chris teach a works based salvation. this " trying to be nice post" does not change that.

and, I do not try and believe the best of others here. I believe, promote , and stand up for truth. that is what I believe in.

the only thing it takes for one to be saved is faith and trust in Christ. every thing else is a separate conversation.
You have admitted that you need to obey the commandments of Jesus. Here on this thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133159
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133177
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133190

You have become a works salvationist. You have become a Faith + Obedience salvationist. You said we are to believe AND love our neighbour.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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You have admitted that you need to obey the commandments of Jesus. Here on this thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133159
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133177
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133190

You have become a works salvationist. You have become a Faith + Obedience salvationist. You said we are to believe AND love our neighbour.
yes. but, what happens when I fail to love others as I should?

I ask for forgiveness and move on.

belief saves. loving others is an outflow of that belief.

but, failure to love others does not disqualify one from salvation, as long as one confesses their sin. ( He is faithful and just to forgive our sins)
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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yes. but, what happens when I fail to love others as I should?

I ask for forgiveness and move on.

belief saves. loving others is an outflow of that belief.

but, failure to love others does not disqualify one from salvation, as long as one confesses their sin. ( He is faithful and just to forgive our sins)
In your doctrine, this is actually not necessary. Red above. Merely a nice to have. Why would you need forgiveness if you have already believed.

See, your own words betray you.