Apostasy 101

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Jan 5, 2020
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you are wrong. you and chris teach a works based salvation. this " trying to be nice post" does not change that.

and, I do not try and believe the best of others here. I believe, promote , and stand up for truth. that is what I believe in.

the only thing it takes for one to be saved is faith and trust in Christ. every thing else is a separate conversation.
I cannot speak for Chris, only myself.
How am I teaching "a works based salvation"?

I have shared very little, and acts 2 was my example of the gospel, where the people in Jerusalem came to faith and where filled with the Holy Spirit. If this is what you call "words based salvation" amen.

As you did not really read my post or address what I asked, I suspect you just label and execute as you has done above.

You stand for the truth, amen, for standing for the truth. But which version are you standing for, or is it just a token word to justify dismissing others, lol :)

And Amen, we are saved by having faith and trust in Christ. No greater truth can be declared than this, He is Lord and Saviour.

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So it appears we are brothers in Christ. Welcome brother.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Isa 57:
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.

2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.

Rev 14:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

"..Come to me and i will give you rest ..."
True, but that rest is after you die as per the scriptures so don't get it twisted.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So you have Christ offering Death here? Because those that labour and are heavily laden can't rest until they die?


Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


I guess Hebrews 4:3 COMPLETELY refutes that silly notion. It says what I have been telling you all along. We rest in Christ RIGHT NOW by faith.

We which have believed do enter into rest. Not after we die. Right now.

Obviously, if you don't believe you can enter rest, you can't. Only those who believe enter into Rest.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So you have Christ offering Death here? Because those that labour and are heavily laden can't rest until they die?



Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


I guess Hebrews 4:3 COMPLETELY refutes that silly notion. It says what I have been telling you all along. We rest in Christ RIGHT NOW by faith.

We which have believed do enter into rest. Not after we die. Right now.

Obviously, if you don't believe you can enter rest, you can't. Only those who believe enter into Rest.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
"..i will give you rest" can still mean future.

"for we which have believed do enter into rest" Not "for we which have believed have entered into His rest"

Still nothing that supports you and still nothing that refutes this:

Isa 57:
2Those who walk uprightly enter into peace;
they find rest, lying down in death.

or this:

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Meaning that as long as we are living on this earth, we labor.

But the Lord offers the cross:

Mat 16:24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Even though his yoke easy and his burden is light, it is still a yoke to carry and a burden to bear.

Mat 11:29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

So, rest only come when one dies.

Try again.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


I guess Hebrews 4:3 COMPLETELY refutes that silly notion. It says what I have been telling you all along. We rest in Christ RIGHT NOW by faith.
Your guess is wrong.

Heb 4:
1Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it. 2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.a

3Now we who have believed enter that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said:

“So I swore on oath in My anger,

‘They shall never enter My rest.’”b

And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world. 4For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.”c 5And again, as He says in the passage above: “They shall never enter My rest.”

6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”d

8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

You can not be making every effort while resting at the same time.
I guess this completely destroys your position.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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"..i will give you rest" can still mean future.

"for we which have believed do enter into rest" Not "for we which have believed have entered into His rest"

Still nothing that supports you and still nothing that refutes this:

Isa 57:
2Those who walk uprightly enter into peace;
they find rest, lying down in death.

or this:

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Meaning that as long as we are living on this earth, we labor.

But the Lord offers the cross:

Mat 16:24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Even though his yoke easy and his burden is light, it is still a yoke to carry and a burden to bear.

Mat 11:29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

So, rest only come when one dies.

Try again.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


This is explained perfectly simply for those that believe.

Its explained very simply so a person CAN'T misunderstand. They can only NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:


Why does a person NOT enter into Gods Rest? Because they don't believe.

Believing that Rest in Christ is not possible until after you die is the same as unbelief.


You "rest" from everything when you die. So its kind of a non-argument.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


This is explained perfectly simply for those that believe.

Its explained very simply so a person CAN'T misunderstand. They can only NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:


Why does a person NOT enter into Gods Rest? Because they don't believe.

Believing that Rest in Christ is not possible until after you die is the same as unbelief.


You "rest" from everything when you die. So its kind of a non-argument.
Heb 4: 9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. ....
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

Effort is the opposite of rest. For God's people, we put the effort now so that we enter the rest later. They can not be applicable at the same time. And like i said, no verse you going to quote that can cancel Isa 57 and Rev 14 which clearly say, the rest is after one dies.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Why are you so obsessed with believing that real believers/those who are born of God can and do lose their salvation and also why are you so obsessed with trying to convince me to believe that? Why are you so obsessed with NOSAS? :unsure:
Once saved always saved is a deceitful dangerous doctrine that lulls believers to sleep. You may not be one of those, but there are many who are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking nothing matters from here on out.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Australia
Once saved always saved is a deceitful dangerous doctrine that lulls believers to sleep. You may not be one of those, but there are many who are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking nothing matters from here on out.
How does a person lose their salvation? Is it by eventual flat out denial of Christ?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Heb 4: 9There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God. ....
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

Effort is the opposite of rest. For God's people, we put the effort now so that we enter the rest later. They can not be applicable at the same time. And like i said, no verse you going to quote that can cancel Isa 57 and Rev 14 which clearly say, the rest is after one dies.
*Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" in Hebrews 4:9 is used no where else in the Bible.*

From W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary : SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Once saved always saved is a deceitful dangerous doctrine that lulls believers to sleep. You may not be one of those, but there are many who are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking nothing matters from here on out.
I'm yet to fellowship with believers who hold to OSAS that say nothing matters from here on out/just live like the devil/doesn't matter/go steal and kill all you want etc../doesn't matter. If someone professed to be a Christian, yet lived like the devil, I would say that person is deceived. NOSAS has the tendency to lull believers into a sense of IN-security, which can lead to fear, bondage and legalism. That may not describe you, but I have seen it myself. There may be extreme sides to both camps.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Why are you so obsessed with believing that real believers/those who are born of God can and do lose their salvation and also why are you so obsessed with trying to convince me to believe that? Why are you so obsessed with NOSAS? :unsure:
It’s like the tv drama The Good Place.

They want to eventually be able to tell others in heaven “Guess what I also did to secure my salvation in heaven”? 🤣
 
Jan 5, 2020
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Once saved always saved is a deceitful dangerous doctrine that lulls believers to sleep. You may not be one of those, but there are many who are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking nothing matters from here on out.
I think the problem is not OSAS, this is just the distraction, the problem is compromising walking the straight path, and laughing and mocking obedience and the ambition to not be of the world, but of the Kingdom witnessing to the world.

Spiritual growth comes from feeding the soul through the word and God giving the growth.
If all you hear is defeat and compromise, wealth, self indulgence and greed, why rock the boat.
An affair after all is just what happens, porn is just a way of meeting need, diddling the tax man
is our privilege of getting back at the enemy, bullying the work colleagues keeps the lost in order,
and so the excuses go on. So what is I can barely walk, I need a massive car, have a medical bill
you would not believe, that is Gods blessing, so enjoy it.

How often is Gods word opened or expounded, instead success and latest fads are so much better,
or holidays, or cars, or houses. Look how snazzy the church is doing, God must be moving, the pastor
has a sports car.

The church to Laodicea
Rev 3:17-19
You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

But these fellowships no longer need to repent, they have done that one off, and nothing else needs to be done.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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As I already explained numerous times, in context, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately, continuous action, a matter of practice. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
Fundamentally, I have no problem with this.
The contention you have to address is the matter of them being an ex-believer.

'Sanctified' in the Hebrews 10 is referring to the person had been perfected in Christ, but who is sinning himself--or has sinned himself--into unbelief (Hebrews 3:12-13). The end result being, he is no longer saved and has nothing left to look forward to but to be condemned along with the enemies of God.

This passage is plainly talking about a sanctified believer falling away from Christ into unbelief and being lost as a result.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Also, if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. *NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation."
I explained this.
'Forever' is not defined in the passage as 'you can't lose it'.
It's defined in the passage as 'it doesn't need to be repeated'.
Just because Christ's sacrifice doesn't need to be repeated doesn't mean you can't lose it. It just means He doesn't have to be re-sacrificed because it set in motion a justification/sanctification that never peters out like it did in the old system. The results continue, and they continue for you if you keep believing in it.

Go ahead and play your context card. Show us where 'forever' in Hebrews 10 means you can't lose it. And I'll show you where 'forever' means it does not have to be repeated like it did under the old system of priest and sacrifice.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I explained this.
'Forever' is not defined in the passage as 'you can't lose it'.
It's defined in the passage as 'it doesn't need to be repeated'.
Just because Christ's sacrifice doesn't need to be repeated doesn't mean you can't lose it. It just means He doesn't have to be re-sacrificed because it set in motion a justification/sanctification that never peters out like it did in the old system. The results continue, and they continue for you if you keep believing in it.

Go ahead and play your context card. Show us where 'forever' in Hebrews 10 means you can't lose it. And I'll show you where 'forever' means it does not have to be repeated like it did under the old system of priest and sacrifice.
He can't. In reality he knows this but the horse has already bolted.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the word 'sanctified' to refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" without experiencing salvation as Paul explained.
I don't think you know what it means for an unbelieving spouse and/or children to be sanctified.
It means the believing spouse does not have to separate himself from his unbelieving family like he has to other unbelievers.
God has declared them clean for contact by the believing spouse so that he won't become unclean by contact with them as he would with other unbelievers.

The problem with your argument is there is no such thing as God sanctifying other unbelievers in this way like he does for unbelieving family members. This sanctified unbeliever that you insist Hebrews 29 is talking about doesn't exist. We are told to cast out those unclean people from the church. They are unclean, not made clean as you insist:

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
17“Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”
2 Corinthians 6:14,17


See? God doesn't make them clean (sanctify them). He tells us to separate ourselves from unclean unbelievers. The sanctified unbeliever you say Hebrews 10:29 is talking about doesn't exist. You're trying to apply the exception to the passage (unbelieving spouses and children) and it don't fit.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
He's wasting a lot of time warning them about falling away just to wrap it all up by saying 'you won't fall away'.

This is his 'go get 'em, champs!' exhortation. Like when a little league coach tells his aspiring young athletes to be the champions they are. He doesn't tell them that because he knows without a doubt they will win. He's telling them that to stir up the championship potential that is in them. "Come on, guys! We're winners, not losers!" That's what dads tell their kids.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,674
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Once saved always saved is a deceitful dangerous doctrine that lulls believers to sleep. You may not be one of those, but there are many who are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking nothing matters from here on out.