Apostasy 101

[JohnW34]

So you basically define believing "as" works, as do all works-salvationists. Believing unto salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Doing which follows is works. Though our deeds are judged by God (believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards based on works - 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) it's not the good deeds/works themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life/salvation (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. (Romans 2:6-10) Good deeds produced out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

"as do all works-salvationists."
In a lot of the discussions on this forum, this phrase is used a lot.
This is used in the context of what not to be, but the positive, what you would like people to be seems to be missing.

If I ignored the start, how you begin the walk in Jesus, and ignored the end, being like Jesus, what is in the middle?
It is this middle that seems to be our lives of faith, and what is being described called of God or not of God.

But living this is everything, what the whole new testament is about.
Some seem to say 99% of all believers are actually lost. Others hold the faithful exist in all fellowships.
Some support their theological group as the "saved".

I take it you hold the RCC are definitely outside the work of God, but what for you is in the work of God to any degree?

Some very strident pompous people are calling friends and brothers those who would fry them in hell, while others
enemies who are actually friends who walk in the Lords love. So I would like to shine some light on people and
their real positions to bring more clarity to what is being shared, and hopefully resolve some sinful behaviour
that is going on. God bless you.

 

[Grandpa]

11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest,

Right, believers are making an effort to enter that rest, not resting to enter that rest.

How do you make every effort to enter rest when you don't believe in it?

Seems like you are making every effort to NOT enter rest.

 

[Grandpa]

"as do all works-salvationists."
In a lot of the discussions on this forum, this phrase is used a lot.
This is used in the context of what not to be, but the positive, what you would like people to be seems to be missing.

If I ignored the start, how you begin the walk in Jesus, and ignored the end, being like Jesus, what is in the middle?
It is this middle that seems to be our lives of faith, and what is being described called of God or not of God.

But living this is everything, what the whole new testament is about.
Some seem to say 99% of all believers are actually lost. Others hold the faithful exist in all fellowships.
Some support their theological group as the "saved".

I take it you hold the RCC are definitely outside the work of God, but what for you is in the work of God to any degree?

Some very strident pompous people are calling friends and brothers those who would fry them in hell, while others
enemies who are actually friends who walk in the Lords love. So I would like to shine some light on people and
their real positions to bring more clarity to what is being shared, and hopefully resolve some sinful behaviour
that is going on. God bless you.

How were you saved to begin with?

By all your works?

Or by calling on God?

The bible tells you explicitly how it happens.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Too many carnal people still giving their carnal opinions about how much work is required to reach Salvation and then keep that salvation. And then lose it if you don't keep working.

Not a whole lot of understanding of the ACTUAL way of salvation.


Probably no point in posting this to someone that is offended by the term "works-salvationist".

 

[mailmandan]

"as do all works-salvationists."
In a lot of the discussions on this forum, this phrase is used a lot.
This is used in the context of what not to be, but the positive, what you would like people to be seems to be missing.

That phrase is used a lot because it's not hard to find people on Christian Chat who teach salvation by faith + works (at least in part) as the means of either obtaining and/or maintaining salvation. It's also common for such people to re-define faith to "include" works.

 

[EleventhHour]

Its a very good point @Judges1318 @mailmandan

The term sanctification is used throughout Hebrews 10


Hebrews 10v10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (BELIEVERS)
Hebrews 10v14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (BELIEVERS)
Hebrews 10v29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (NOW THESE ARE SUPPOSEDLY NOT BELIEVERS)

Come on MailmanDan. Admit it. You don't need to gymkhana this verse 29 to fit your doctrine. It is plain to see. Why lie to yourself. Why lie to others. Be free.

Lie to others ... @mailmandan does not lie.

And if anyone needs to be set free it is you...you believe you can atone for your own sins.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes, by the eventual flat out denial of Christ in a return to unbelief.

He covers us when we are unfaithful in the growing pains of our life in Christ.
But He will deny us if we deny him in unbelief.

There's a difference between being unfaithful because of weakness or ignorance while still believing in Christ, and denying Him in an outright unbelief. Denying him is what sets you on the course to losing your salvation.

There is no way a person can ACTUALLY be saved and then stop believing in the one who saved them.

If you were drowning and just about to go under and someone pulled you out of the water could you later just not believe you were pulled out of the water?

No. Of course you could not just stop believing. Its really a silly thought.


But if all you have is an intellectual theory of what Salvation possibly is then you could have an intellectual theory on how a person could lose that fake salvation.

 

[JohnW34]

How were you saved to begin with?

By all your works?

Or by calling on God?

The bible tells you explicitly how it happens.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Too many carnal people still giving their carnal opinions about how much work is required to reach Salvation and then keep that salvation. And then lose it if you don't keep working.

Not a whole lot of understanding of the ACTUAL way of salvation.


Probably no point in posting this to someone that is offended by the term "works-salvationist".

I put my faith in Jesus, repented of my sins and committed myself to stop doing evil and do good as unto the Lord.

I am not offended by the term "works-salvationist". I am looking for clarity on what is the walk for individual
posters. Labels are easy to create, but actually only work as guide.

At the core of our walk is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As an outflow of this love is good works, praise and worship,
prayer and intercession, bible study and fellowship. Now that is quite of lot of content, and Paul encourages us
to sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh.

Ironically maybe even saying this is who we are is "works salvationist" for some, but I would suggest humbly,
they do not know the Lord or read their bibles. But that is fine, this is the internet, and a place for discussion
with all sorts, even if the label themselves as believers and followers of Jesus. God bless you.

 

[Grandpa]

I put my faith in Jesus, repented of my sins and committed myself to stop doing evil and do good as unto the Lord.

I am not offended by the term "works-salvationist". I am looking for clarity on what is the walk for individual
posters. Labels are easy to create, but actually only work as guide.

At the core of our walk is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As an outflow of this love is good works, praise and worship,
prayer and intercession, bible study and fellowship. Now that is quite of lot of content, and Paul encourages us
to sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh.

Ironically maybe even saying this is who we are is "works salvationist" for some, but I would suggest humbly,
they do not know the Lord or read their bibles. But that is fine, this is the internet, and a place for discussion
with all sorts, even if the label themselves as believers and followers of Jesus. God bless you.

Isn't it strange how people call themselves Christians but have no idea of what Christianity actually is?

Its like a bunch of carnal people took a vote and decided these are the works that get you in. If you do these then you are a Christian just like us.

But then Real Christians come in and say "No, those works DON'T get you in". Your works aren't what gets you in.

And all the workers scoff and say "You aren't a real christian like us"

Well, they are right, we aren't like them....

 

[oyster67]

Paul uses the same Greek word (hagiazo) in 1 Corinthians 1:2 for believers who are "sanctified" in Christ Jesus as he does for the unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by the believing spouse, yet the unbelieving spouse is not saved by this association but does come under the believing spouse's influence and is in a real sense "set apart" from other unbelievers.

There is no problem with my argument, which is in perfect harmony with the context of Hebrews 10 and with the rest of scripture. So as I already explained to you and to your condescending friend once again in post #373, after considering the CONTEXT it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. You can try all you want to dazzle me or baffle me into changing my mind and siding with your biased interpretation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen and you and your friend will just have to find a way to get over it.

Oh the irony and these types of psychological games don't work on me either. I already made my adjustments after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church. BTW the Roman Catholic church strongly opposes OSAS and there is a reason for that. You will both just have to find someone else to deceive. I'm not buying what you are selling.

I am sooo glad that you got yourself free from RCC. Believe me when I say I have no affiliation with them. They truly are works salvationists. I don't stress any need for works; just for the need for a humble and repentant spirit. The Lord seems to extract fruits and works out of that somehow. He gives me a 'want to', as opposed to that old RC "have to". I do feel eternally secure. I know Jesus loves me and I know I love Him. Blessed assurance, Jesus is ours. PTL!

 

[Judges1318]

Paul uses the same Greek word (hagiazo) in 1 Corinthians 1:2 for believers who are "sanctified" in Christ Jesus as he does for the unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by the believing spouse, yet the unbelieving spouse is not saved by this association but does come under the believing spouse's influence and is in a real sense "set apart" from other unbelievers.

We know this. But how does this mean any and all unbelievers in the church are set apart as clean? You have to play your context card to prove your point. Especially, since the NT specifically states they are not clean, and are to be cast out of the church for the sake of the cleanness of the church. But if you are sure there is Biblical context that says fake believers among us are actually clean, not unclean, let's have it. Then I will show you, again, how the Bible says the exact opposite, and that they are NOT clean and should be removed from the church.

There is no problem with my argument, which is in perfect harmony with the context of Hebrews 10 and with the rest of scripture. So as I already explained to you and to your condescending friend once again in post #373, after considering the CONTEXT it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

There is NOTHING in Hebrews that sets the context of the sanctified person in vs. 10 as having never believed. I showed you the context says the exact opposite. And you need to show us where in the NT it explains how fake believers in the church are sanctified by the blood of Christ, and I will show you where it explains they are not. (Barring, of course, the exception of the believer in marital union to an unbelieving spouse and the children they have.)

I already made my adjustments after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church. BTW the Roman Catholic church strongly opposes OSAS and there is a reason for that.

Not one church leader in the church immediately following the Apostles believed in osas. In fact, they opposed it. They may have been off on some things, but they were unanimous in their resistance to osas. It was rooted in Gnosticism and vehemently resisted. Did you know this? The osas that the church knows and loves was crafted by Calvin in the, what, 15th century, or somewhere about there. It's a later teaching in the church.

All you did was trade the Catholic church's false doctrine for the Protestant's false doctrine. We're just as wrong and misguided as the Catholics are, but in different things. The real truth is hiding in plain site and doesn't play denominational games. It's available to everyone if they would just get out of their doctrinal boxes and see that their way of seeing scripture is not the only way. There are things our denominations don't even let us know are out there.

 

[JohnW34]

Isn't it strange how people call themselves Christians but have no idea of what Christianity actually is?

Its like a bunch of carnal people took a vote and decided these are the works that get you in. If you do these then you are a Christian just like us.

But then Real Christians come in and say "No, those works DON'T get you in". Your works aren't what gets you in.

And all the workers scoff and say "You aren't a real christian like us"

Well, they are right, we aren't like them....

Hi Grandpa,

I was trying to talk about our daily walk with Jesus, and you seem to be saying no that is not what it means to be a believer.
What then is your walk, or is only the beginning important to you, the rest is irrelevant?

 

[oyster67]

How were you saved to begin with?

By all your works?

Or by calling on God?

The bible tells you explicitly how it happens.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Too many carnal people still giving their carnal opinions about how much work is required to reach Salvation and then keep that salvation. And then lose it if you don't keep working.

Not a whole lot of understanding of the ACTUAL way of salvation.


Probably no point in posting this to someone that is offended by the term "works-salvationist".

Faith, No, Yes, Amen. I really do agree with everything in that post. God bless you, brother. I am not a works salvation guy. Never was.

 

[mailmandan]

We know this. But how does this mean any and all unbelievers in the church are set apart as clean? You have to play your context card to prove your point. Especially, since the NT specifically states they are not clean, and are to be cast out of the church for the sake of the cleanness of the church. But if you are sure there is Biblical context that says fake believers among us are actually clean, not unclean, let's have it. Then I will show you, again, how the Bible says the exact opposite, and that they are NOT clean and should be removed from the church.

For the umpteenth time, I already thoroughly explained my position in post #373. I didn't say anything about these unbelieving Hebrews in Hebrew 10:29 being clean, but "set apart" which doesn't mean they were saved. Hebrews 10:10, 14, 26, 39 also backs up my argument. The unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" because of their believing spouse in 1 Corinthians 7:14 is not saved either. Just face the facts. We do not agree on this (and probably never will) and you will NEVER convince me otherwise. You need to get over it and move on.

 

[oyster67]

There is no way a person can ACTUALLY be saved and then stop believing in the one who saved them.

That is the only place where we don't completely see eye to eye. I agree that it would be silly and stupid to throw Jesus in the trash can, but the Bible does say it can happen. As long as we keep loving God and each other, it doesn't matter. We are are still brothers and sisters.

 

[Enxu]

APOSTASY

Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

So here are the questions to those who deny the apostasy is a real risk to be aware of (for true believers).

1) Those mentioned above were in liberty (v1) - Are these Christians?
2) These same people are warned not to be entangled again. (v1) - Can they be found in slavery once again?
3) The consequence is estrangement from Christ (v4) - How do you become estranged if you were not in union?
4) The fall from Grace (v4) - To those who claim Grace cannot be lost, how then does the bible say that it is lost here?

Calvinism OSAS is a lie.

 

[rily51jean]

2 Thessalonians 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Evil Things Will Happen
2 Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2 Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3 Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell. 4 He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.

5 I told you before that all these things would happen. Remember? 6 And you know what is stopping that Man of Evil now. He is being stopped now so that he will appear at the right time. 7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world now. But there is one who is stopping that secret power of evil. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that Man of Evil will appear. But the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth. The Lord will come in a way that everyone will see, and that will be the end of the Man of Evil.

9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved. 11 So God will send them something powerful that leads them away from the truth and causes them to believe a lie. 12 They will all be condemned because they did not believe the truth and because they enjoyed doing evil.

You Are Chosen for Salvation
13 Brothers and sisters, you are people the Lord loves. And we always thank God for you. That’s what we should do, because God chose you to be some of the first people[c] to be saved. You are saved by the Spirit making you holy and by your faith in the truth. 14 God chose you to have that salvation. He chose you by using the Good News that we told you. You were chosen so that you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, brothers and sisters, stand strong and continue to believe the teachings we gave you when we were there and by letter.

16-17 We pray that the Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father will comfort you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say. God loved us and gave us through his grace a wonderful hope and comfort that has no end.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this translation. It might be easy to read, but it loses a lot from the King James Version, which is translated directly from the Hebrew, and the Greek. "The Man of Evil" does not correctly describe "the son of perdition", which term Christ applied to Satan in John 17:12, it makes the identity of the person being spoken about to be generic, any man can be a man of evil, according to that, but the use of the term "son of perdition" is very specific, it is speaking of Satan as Anti-Christ; (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3. 2 John 4:7)
and Anti- in the Greek is G500, which derived from G473 and G5547, which boils down to "Instead of"-Christ; which is another study in itself. But, regarding "son of perdition" in 2 Thess 2:3 and John 17:12:

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou, (i.e., You, Heavenly Father), gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

To quote E.W. Bullinger's note on John 17:12:
"the son, &c. This expression occ. (occurs) here and 2 Thess. 2.3 (the Antichrist). Used in the Sept.(the Septuagint) in Isa. 57.4, "children of transgression". Cp. (compare) Matt. 9.15; 13.38; 23.15. Luke 16.8. Acts 13.10. Eph. 2.2, in all which passages "child" should be "son".
perdition. Gr. apoleia, a kindred word to apollumi. Occ. twenty times. Only here in John. First occ. Matt. 7.13."

And per the Strong's:
son G5207 huios hwee-os'; appar. a prim. word; "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immed., remote or fig. kinship:--child, foal, son.
perdition G684 apoleia, ap-o'-li-a from a presumed der. of 622; ruin or loss (phys., spiritual or eternal):--damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

So, the person in 2 Thess. 2:3 described as "the son of perdition", is more than just a "man of sin", compared to YHVH, he is a man, but he is Satan, a Cherubim (Ezekial 28:14), Abaddon (Hebrew) and Apollyon (Greek) of Rev. 9:11, literally "child of death", as to follow him is sure death, (Gen 2:17),
who is already tried, condemned, and sentenced to die the death, as per Ezekial 28:18. He is the only person that is already condemned to death, as the white throne judgment of Rev. 20:11-15 has not yet happened.
Rev. 9:11
Abaddon G3 Abaddon, ab-ad-dohn'; of Heb. or. (origin) [11]; a destroying angel:--Abaddon.
H11 'abaddown, ab-ad-done'; intens. from 6; abstr. a perishing; concr. Hades:--destruction
Apollyon G623 Apolluon, ap-ol-loo'-ohn; act. part. of 622; a destroyer (Satan);--Apollyon
G622 apollumi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Also God said in Ezekial 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

YHVH will cast Satan out of Heaven, where the Archangel Michael at present is restraining him, Rev. 12:7-9, and then when he is cast to the ground, meaning here on Earth, in actual real time, he appears brightly, claiming to be the Son of God, Yeshua, Messiah, Jesus Christ our Savior, and as Apostle Paul states in 2 Thess. 2:3,

2 Thess. 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (What day? Paul is referring here to the day of Christ's return)
except there come a falling away first, (who's going to fall away, and who/what will they fall away TO?)
and that man of sin be revealed, (now, here Paul calls him "that man of sin", but he's more than that)
the son of perdition (the destroyer, the destroying angel, Abaddon, Apollyon, Satan, child/son of death, spiritual death!) be revealed, (i.e. appear here on Earth in full view, sight of all people, he becomes visible to all of us in this dimension here on Earth)
He is kicked out of heaven, to this Earth (Luke 10:18 "And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.")
Vs. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that He as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Satan appears first on Earth, claiming to be Christ/God returned, and the whole world falls to him, thinking that he is actually Jesus Christ, he is the "Cosmic Christ" of the U.N. One-world religion, (Rev. 6:1-2) (FYI: that's already been set up). He appears and claims deity over all religions. He comes in peaceably and with flatteries, and all the kings of the nations bow to him. The whole world bows to and worships him, even Christians!! That's the great "falling away", that's the great apostasy: people worshiping the false one, the "Idol Shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, thinking he is Jesus returned, and they get sucked into his false religious system (a.ka. beast). He copies everything about Christ, and those who are deceived into worshiping him, working for him, nursing along his agenda (Mark 13:17) are condemned to the 2nd death, the death of the spirit, the soul. (Rev. 14:9-11)

Revelation speaks of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials. They denote the order of events in time.
Satan as Anti-Christ, the "Instead of"-Christ, appears at the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, the 6th Vial. But:
Yeshua, Messiah, Jesus the Christ, the true Son of God-Savior appears at the 7th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, the 7th Vial.

 

[JohnW34]

I wonder if we have a problem of focus.
1. Sin - hurtful actions for our benefit at the cost to others
2. Relationship - an understanding between two parties

Often we do bad things by accident, by chance, as a result of anger, selfishness etc.
Someone gets hurt and a relationship is damaged.

If we put right the hurt, focus on the relationship things can be restored.
If we put things right, but ignore the relationship we have broken the relationship and do not care.

Our language often focuses on behaviour, as measured to a set of rules and not as measured to our
relationship to God. So the idea has come about if we behaved without sin, God would be ok with this.

So some believe we can be good, separate from God, and that is fine.
Or we can never be good, because we are too messed up, but Christ can be the glue so God is blind.

But in essence until we start caring about what God thinks and who He is all is lost.
We are called to walk the straight path, because God wants this and we love Him.
It is also the best thing for us, and when His Spirit dwells in our hearts we actually agree.

David got so amazed by Gods law, He wondered at it and how it operated, because it really was good.
Our relationship with God is not destroyed by one sin, but by us not loving and dealing with the relationship
consequences and hurt, and not sowing to the good relationship we have with God through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Noose]

How do you make every effort to enter rest when you don't believe in it?

Seems like you are making every effort to NOT enter rest.

I believe in the Sabath.

 

[Noose]

So you basically define believing "as" works, as do all works-salvationists. Believing unto salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Doing which follows is works. Though our deeds are judged by God (believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards based on works - 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) it's not the good deeds/works themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life/salvation (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. (Romans 2:6-10) Good deeds produced out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

Believing Christ/Trusting Christ/ Obeying Christ/ Faith in Christ is nothing more than the works/deeds of love. Not our thoughts about Jesus because Christ is now a life giving spirit so we can not know Him after the flesh.

The concept of salvation is very different from what you are proposing. Salvation is not an exchange for what a man does or thinks, it is simply what the Lord did for all men (everyone)- not something we had a choice over. Yet abiding in the love of Christ (salvation/grace) takes our good works of love in obedience to Christ's command. So we don't do these works so that we get salvation but to abide in the love of Christ (which is salvation). These works are not our own works but were created in the beginning so that we walk in them.

Only after doing the will of God does a man get what God has promised.

Heb 10: 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised

Rom 2:6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

1 John 2:24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

 

[Noose]

How were you saved to begin with?

By all your works?

Or by calling on God?

The bible tells you explicitly how it happens.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Too many carnal people still giving their carnal opinions about how much work is required to reach Salvation and then keep that salvation. And then lose it if you don't keep working.

Not a whole lot of understanding of the ACTUAL way of salvation.


Probably no point in posting this to someone that is offended by the term "works-salvationist".

And i doubt you do understand it yourself.

The grace of God is for all mankind, not a portion that thinks about Jesus. That is why Paul says it is a gift, free gift to sinners. Sinners means everyone.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

It is the second part of Eph 2:8-11, about works that actually matters.