Apostasy 101

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Nov 16, 2019
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No. What I mean is he can't afford to change his doctrine after having gone so deep in defending it. The horse has bolted.
I gotcha.
It's hard to be wrong. I know.
I've been wrong before and it's not fun readjusting.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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I don't think you know what it means for an unbelieving spouse and/or children to be sanctified.
It means the believing spouse does not have to separate himself from his unbelieving family like he has to other unbelievers.
God has declared them clean for contact by the believing spouse so that he won't become unclean by contact with them as he would with other unbelievers.

The problem with your argument is there is no such thing as God sanctifying other unbelievers in this way like he does for unbelieving family members. This sanctified unbeliever that you insist Hebrews 29 is talking about doesn't exist. We are told to cast out those unclean people from the church. They are unclean, not made clean as you insist:

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
17“Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”
2 Corinthians 6:14,17


See? God doesn't make them clean (sanctify them). He tells us to separate ourselves from unclean unbelievers. The sanctified unbeliever you say Hebrews 10:29 is talking about doesn't exist. You're trying to apply the exception to the passage (unbelieving spouses and children) and it don't fit.
Thank you. I had never studied that out before. And here I thought I knew it all:)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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*Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" in Hebrews 4:9 is used no where else in the Bible.*

From W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary : SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it.
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest,

Right, believers are making an effort to enter that rest, not resting to enter that rest.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Once saved always saved is a deceitful dangerous doctrine that lulls believers to sleep. You may not be one of those, but there are many who are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking nothing matters from here on out.
There is no false sense of security there is only security.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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There is no false sense of security there is only security.
I like to call it blessed assurance, just like in the old hymn. I talk about it on my profile page. I feel eternally secure in the sense that my surrender is complete. I will never achieve perfection and I realize that it is not neccesary. Our thinking is not as different as Satan would have us believe.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Only the 4th soil produced fruit in various quantities, so I guess fruitless faith represents saving faith anyway? Faith without works is dead only applies in James 2?
I said fruit represents the fruit of the Spirit--the qualities of the Spirit.

You're probably a lot like me. You don't cheat on your taxes. You don't cheat on your wife. Perhaps you're active in your church. You have various works of faith but most of the time you have little to no visible fruit of the Spirit--joy, peace, calmness, patience, etc. Which makes you almost indiscernible from unbelievers.

How can I make such a distinction? Easy. Simple observation. I've almost always saw myself as being 3rd type of soil, yet I knew without a doubt that I was saved. I had plenty works of righteousness, produced and motivated by my relationship with God, but I had little to no fruit; the kind that isn't seen in what you do, but in who you are. That's you, that's me, that's most of us believers in the church, most of the time. But according to your doctrine that means we are not saved, and never have been. You condemn yourself by your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower.

I'm speaking very generally, of course. The point is, the soils represent progressive states of the soil of our hearts. Sometimes we are in a season of fruitfulness. Other times we've been cut back and don't have much fruitfulness at all. Some believers even struggle with unbelief (like the Galatians). The point being, you can't pigeonhole the 2nd type of soil as being exclusively unsaved soil. Nor the 3rd type of soil. If the 4th type of soil is the only saved soil then we're both in trouble. We've never been saved according to your doctrine. I don't think you're prepared to accept that, but that is exactly what your doctrine is saying.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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You seem to view these various soils as revolving doors for believers.
Go ahead. Tell me you've been soil #4 the whole time you've been a believer.
Good for you if you have been, but simple observation tells me genuine believers can be soils #2,3, and 4 at different times.

So fruitless faith is still saving faith according to you? Would James agree with that? (James 2:14)
When you consider the difference between what you do and who you are you'll see exactly how you can be soils #2 or 3 and still be very much a saved person with living, yet fruitless faith.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Generally, people in the works salvation camp (who also teach NOSAS) teach that #2 and #3 soils represent saved individuals who lost their salvation.
You'll have to take that up with works salvationists. Whoever they are. I personally don't know any and may have only known one in my whole Christian life who appeared to not be an outsider to Christianity.

Equating works salvation with believing you can lose your salvation in most cases (but not all) are tied together
The five minute rule prevented me from stating it the way I should have. You can't instantly equate not believing in osas with works salvation. That is a HUGE error on your part.

Even people who teach we are saved through faith, not works who subscribe to NOSAS seem to have "type 2 works salvation" continuously knocking at their back door, even if they don't end up answering the door.
The problem is it always looks that way to you, not that it actually is always that way. There are us Christians that understand not having works of righteousness in their life can indicate a hardening of the heart in unbelief leading to loss of salvation. Works are a kind of litmus test of one's faith in God, not a way to secure and keep salvation. But you always judge that thinking as one trying to work to earn their salvation.

You are the first person in the NOSAS camp that I heard say soil #2 can represent a person who never believed. You are full of surprises! ;)
That's easy for me to know because I was one of them! While my wife became that after she was saved.

But anyway, like I say, truth is almost always found in between the various doctrines of the church. If we'd just listen to each other and bring all the pieces of truth that we all possess together we could come into some semblance of unity. That's how how I form my personal doctrinal beliefs. I pick the scripturally verifiable truths out from everything people say and put them together to arrive at the truth. But most people stay in their preprogrammed box of doctrinal beliefs that they were taught and refuse to budge an inch on them. You don't learn truth that way. Most Christians can't even fathom there is a different way to look at their favorite proof texts.

You seem to view these different soils as revolving and evolving experiences. :unsure:
If you would just be able to 1) honestly admit you've spent a lot of time in soil #3 as a believer (which is probably true), and 2) recognize the difference between what you do in regard to works of righteousness and who you are in regard to the fruit of the Spirit you'd see that the Parable of the Sower does indeed represent the changing soil of the believer's heart. But like I say, if you have genuinely been type #4 soil all your Christian life then good for you. But don't project your personal experience onto the rest of us who haven't been soil #4 through every season of our spiritual lives but who have been genuinely saved nonetheless. Don't form doctrine that way alone.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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How does a person lose their salvation? Is it by eventual flat out denial of Christ?
Yes, by the eventual flat out denial of Christ in a return to unbelief.

He covers us when we are unfaithful in the growing pains of our life in Christ.
But He will deny us if we deny him in unbelief.

There's a difference between being unfaithful because of weakness or ignorance while still believing in Christ, and denying Him in an outright unbelief. Denying him is what sets you on the course to losing your salvation.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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NOSAS has the tendency to lull believers into a sense of IN-security, which can lead to fear, bondage and legalism.
Maybe it does in the extreme beliefs of works salvation nosas, but not in the 'you can lose your salvation' I'm advocating where continued believing makes you secure in Christ.

When you understand that loss of salvation is due to not believing in Christ anymore and not by no longer earning your salvation by your works you realize how very secure salvation is for the believer. We are securely sealed in Christ by our faith, not our works. Works only assure one outwardly that they are secure in Christ through faith.

I know you agree with this. We just differ in that you think the believer can never stop believing. That's fine, to a point. At least you defend the necessity for holy living. Not as a way to earn salvation, but as the consequential evidence of that salvation. :)
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Australia
Yes, by the eventual flat out denial of Christ in a return to unbelief.

He covers us when we are unfaithful in the growing pains of our life in Christ.
But He will deny us if we deny him in unbelief.

There's a difference between being unfaithful because of weakness or ignorance while still believing in Christ, and denying Him in an outright unbelief. Denying him is what sets you on the course to losing your salvation.
Thank you for answering.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I don't think you know what it means for an unbelieving spouse and/or children to be sanctified. It means the believing spouse does not have to separate himself from his unbelieving family like he has to other unbelievers. God has declared them clean for contact by the believing spouse so that he won't become unclean by contact with them as he would with other unbelievers.
Paul uses the same Greek word (hagiazo) in 1 Corinthians 1:2 for believers who are "sanctified" in Christ Jesus as he does for the unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by the believing spouse, yet the unbelieving spouse is not saved by this association but does come under the believing spouse's influence and is in a real sense "set apart" from other unbelievers.

The problem with your argument is there is no such thing as God sanctifying other unbelievers in this way like he does for unbelieving family members. This sanctified unbeliever that you insist Hebrews 29 is talking about doesn't exist. We are told to cast out those unclean people from the church. They are unclean, not made clean as you insist:

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
17“Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”
2 Corinthians 6:14,17


See? God doesn't make them clean (sanctify them). He tells us to separate ourselves from unclean unbelievers. The sanctified unbeliever you say Hebrews 10:29 is talking about doesn't exist. You're trying to apply the exception to the passage (unbelieving spouses and children) and it don't fit.
There is no problem with my argument, which is in perfect harmony with the context of Hebrews 10 and with the rest of scripture. So as I already explained to you and to your condescending friend once again in post #373, after considering the CONTEXT it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. You can try all you want to dazzle me or baffle me into changing my mind and siding with your biased interpretation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen and you and your friend will just have to find a way to get over it.

No. What I mean is he can't afford to change his doctrine after having gone so deep in defending it. The horse has bolted.
I gotcha. It's hard to be wrong. I know. I've been wrong before and it's not fun readjusting.
Oh the irony and these types of psychological games don't work on me either. I already made my adjustments after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church. BTW the Roman Catholic church strongly opposes OSAS and there is a reason for that. You will both just have to find someone else to deceive. I'm not buying what you are selling.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest,

Right, believers are making an effort to enter that rest, not resting to enter that rest.
For someone who subscribes to works salvation, this probably sounds like a lot of hard work! So what did the writer of Hebrews mean here?

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER THAT REST, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. :)

Those who fall short of the grace of God and do not enter in because of UNBELIEF obviously did not make every effort to enter that rest.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Paul uses the same Greek word (hagiazo) in 1 Corinthians 1:2 for believers who are "sanctified" in Christ Jesus as he does for the unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by the believing spouse, yet the unbelieving spouse is not saved by this association but does come under the believing spouse's influence and is in a real sense "set apart" from other unbelievers.

There is no problem with my argument, which is in perfect harmony with the context of Hebrews 10 and with the rest of scripture. So as I already explained to you and to your condescending friend once again in post #373, after considering the CONTEXT it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. You can try all you want to dazzle me or baffle me into changing my mind and siding with your biased interpretation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen and you and your friend will just have to find a way to get over it.

Oh the irony and these types of psychological games don't work on me either. I already made my adjustments after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church. BTW the Roman Catholic church strongly opposes OSAS and there is a reason for that. You will both just have to find someone else to deceive. I'm not buying what you are selling.
they just do not get it.

the type of smoke and mirrors and smokescreens they throw out there does NOT work on those of us who know the Bible.

many , sadly, do not know the Bible, and fall for this deception.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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For someone who subscribes to works salvation, this probably sounds like a lot of hard work! So what did the writer of Hebrews mean here?

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER THAT REST, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. :)

Those who fall short of the grace of God and do not enter in because of UNBELIEF obviously did not make every effort to enter that rest.
But believing is doing and not thinking- the reason judgement is all about deeds and not thoughts.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Go ahead. Tell me you've been soil #4 the whole time you've been a believer.
Good for you if you have been, but simple observation tells me genuine believers can be soils #2, 3, and 4 at different times.

When you consider the difference between what you do and who you are you'll see exactly how you can be soils #2 or 3 and still be very much a saved person with living, yet fruitless faith.
I appreciate your efforts, but you and I just do not see eye to eye on the parable of the soils and probably never will. I also appreciate you not falsely accusing me of being disingenuous or calling me a liar whenever we have a disagreement over doctrine. I believe that all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Faith that remains unfruitful, is a dead faith. (James 2:14)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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But believing is doing and not thinking- the reason judgement is all about deeds and not thoughts.
So you basically define believing "as" works, as do all works-salvationists. Believing unto salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Doing which follows is works. Though our deeds are judged by God (believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards based on works - 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) it's not the good deeds/works themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life/salvation (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. (Romans 2:6-10) Good deeds produced out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.