Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[fredoheaven]

Hi Fred,

No, prophecien is not from Latin. The infinitive of the Latin verb is "propheto". No 'c' or 's'.

Whether the spelling of English words have changed over time or not - and I still don't see the point you're making, actually - surely it's the meaning of the Greek that we need to be looking at.

Thanks for the list of lexicons and the KJV. I use some of them too so I'm really none the wiser as to how you arrive at your conclusions.

God bless!

Now I really have to reply to garee - tomorrow maybe.

Hi Sir!

Yea and not pretty sure of your point either. In translating the Latin Vulgate into English by Wycliffe, he for sure did not use the verb “propheto” as you mention instead “prophetetis”. Here is the exact text from the Latin Vulgate, Wycliffe used in translating to Old English.

“sectamini caritatem aemulamini spiritalia magis autem ut prophetetis”

According to Wicktionary “prophetetis” is second-erson plural present active subjunctive of prophētō

Online Source - Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prophetetis

Just giving my opinion here and not to further this discussion, It is you who cited Wycliffe, which test has failed since this beg me to offer that it was not translated in the Greek per se. Then you go on to the Latin verb “propheto” with no c or s which again did not match with the actual rendering of the Latin text used by Wyclife. Tyndale on the other hand did a fine translation by going directly to the Greek which was purified by the KJV and the pre-KJV English Lexicons as in the LEME. Linguistic study according to the many sources in the internet is that “sound gives sense” to the meaning and does the picture. It will also be noted as David Norton said that “the danger of spelling changes is that precision of the translation is sometimes obscured.” (David Norton, The King James Bible, A Short History from Tyndale to Today p.165.)

Sources: Phonetics and Phonology
cis01.central.ucv.ro/litere/idd/cursuri/an_3/lb.../CURS%20ID%20SEMANTICA.doc


Yea sure, I will defer doing things in this time about Greek because of my inability even to distinguished its letter. I need to study that first. However, going to a Greek using one or two scholars or authors even adapting enemies thought is very dangerous. Englis

Blessings…

 

[fredoheaven]

Let's look at this idea of testing the spirits because this idea is used to basically say, oh my skepticism is testing the spirits, but let's see what Scripture says about it:

1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Okay so here's what SCRIPTURE says about testing the spirits. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God and it doesn't it's not from God.


So the "spirits" are not spooky "spirits", but actually worldly thinking. It is this CARNAL mindedness that is actually what John is speaking about by "testing the spirits". They SPEAK from the WORLD.

6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

John is explaining, look we know God, so listen to us. And if they don't listen to us, they don't know God. And then John states the biggest idea of the entire book of John and 1 Co 12-14!!!

7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

TESTING the Spirits is testing if we have LOVE or not. John is writing about loving one another BECAUSE THIS is the COMMAND of Jesus Christ, who is the King of Love.


So yes, let us test the spirits! To see if they be FROM GOD or if they be FROM THE WORLD.

About the trying of the spirits.

Gnosticism is the prevalent heresies during the time of Apostle John. They were either Docetic Gnostics who did not believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or that of Cerenthian Gnostics who believed Christ came to Jesus at his baptism guiding him to his ministry but left him at the crucifixion.

The “testing the spirits” that Apostle John did tell us is that any spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (Docetism) or any spirit that does not confess Jesus is Christ( Cerinthian) is not from God and has the spirit of antiChrist. Look the word “Christ” is very important in all the writings of Apostle John or else be guilty of a Gnostic belief.

So the idea is of “testing the spirits” is not about love or anything else. This refers primarily in distinguishing right teaching or doctrine especially of Jesus Christ. Like it or not, your scriptures citation on those above verses emulates from Gnostic spirit.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

so if you have 2 people speaking the same language, unknown to man, one is a pagan and the other claims to be Christian, what does that tell you?

Is the pagan an unbeliever?

Is the Christian a believer?

i dont doubt scripture but i do have many doubts in mankind's interpretation of scripture. mankind has proven many times over the years of making mistakes.

I do not doubt Scripture either.

When 1 Cor 12:6 tells us God worketh all in all I believe it. Please note, the word "worketh" is the Greek word energeō, which means to energize.

And 1 Cor 12:11 tells us all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit (each manifestation listed in vss 8-10 is energized by the Spirit).

Since it is God Who energizes the manifestation of kinds of tongues, the operation is as perfect as God is perfect.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm not accusing God but those who suppose to manipulate God into contradicting Himself.

When you make statements such as ---

Tongues are like many modern addictions. Harmful and deadly in many ways.

--- you are the one to "manipulate God into contradicting Himself" because you contradict Scripture which indicates

the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal (1 Cor 12:7)

God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues (1 Cor 12:28)

he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries (1 Cor 14:2)

Anything that is abused is harmful even food.

imo, the statement you made in your post #223 that "tongues are like many modern addictions. Harmful and deadly in many ways" is abusive and harmful.

Perhaps if you had prefaced your statement with something to the effect that misuse of the manifestation of the Spirit is harmful and deadly, I would agree with you.

But your phraseology is that the true operation of the manifestation is harmful and deadly.

And that is a contradiction of Scripture and is a lie.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why do we need anything above and beyond what God has already so graciously given?

Speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit and is not "anything above and beyond what God has already given" since it is God Who worketh all in all (1 Cor 12:6).

I do not insist that you must speak in tongues.

Why do you insist that I must not speak in tongues (a manifestation graciously given by God)?

Scratching my head over that ...

 

[fredoheaven]

The mindset of the modern Pentecostal Charismatic is one of give me tongues and gifts. Not really and different than the malefactor crucified with Christ who wanted Jesus to exercise His divine power to save him from the death of the cross. Seeking to manipulate not seeking mercy indicating a wrong heart attitude.

Paul says to desire Spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 14:1 he does not say to desire tongues and goes on to say they are the least of the gifts. Prophecy, preach the word that men will be converted and have forgiveness of their sins.

Anything that is abused is harmful even food.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

Amen! Anything that is in excess is harmful.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

1 Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

 

[jaybird88]

Is the pagan an unbeliever?

Is the Christian a believer?

it would make little difference to the person witnessing the 2 persons as both of them are doing the same thing. so how would they tell

I do not doubt Scripture either.

When 1 Cor 12:6 tells us God worketh all in all I believe it. Please note, the word "worketh" is the Greek word energeō, which means to energize.

And 1 Cor 12:11 tells us all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit (each manifestation listed in vss 8-10 is energized by the Spirit).

Since it is God Who energizes the manifestation of kinds of tongues, the operation is as perfect as God is perfect.

no one said our Lord is imperfect. and we have many examples of the Lords power acting through men of the Lord. and yet there are no examples of men of the Lord speaking angel languages. we even have examples of angels speaking and its in our own language.

 

[fredoheaven]

Jaybird,

Okay, that's right for even Paul says he cannot speak in the tongues of angels as some have supposed he can.

 

[RickyZ]

Ok, I was going to let this dead horse lay, but I just ran across something...

A post in the prayer forum that ... well, just raised my Spidey senses and put me in a quandary. This person was bloviating about their ministry and how it was under satanic attack and asking for prayers. They sounded sincere - but too sincere. I wanted to pray, but - what do I pray about? If their ministry is true I want to pray in support of that, but if their ministry is false or of self (which is what I sensed) then I want to pray for them to be humbled before God. I mean, these are two different directions in prayer. I could just say some limited generic 'cover all the bases' human prayer. Or I could in my mind lift this person before God, while letting the Holy Spirit use my lips to speak the prayer in the direction it needs to go. In the end, I am edified in knowing that in faith I was able to pray my best for that person (by letting the Spirit pray His best thru me) ... while it remains a mystery to me as to which way actually was best. And God was glorified - by me with praise for this wondrous gift, and in the recipient by what was set in motion by praying the prayer that needed to be prayed.

God says do it. God teaches us time and place. God says do not forbid it.

God says, do not forbid it.

 

[kohelet]

Hi Sir!

Yea and not pretty sure of your point either. In translating the Latin Vulgate into English by Wycliffe, he for sure did not use the verb “propheto” as you mention instead “prophetetis”. Here is the exact text from the Latin Vulgate, Wycliffe used in translating to Old English.

“sectamini caritatem aemulamini spiritalia magis autem ut prophetetis”

According to Wicktionary “prophetetis” is second-erson plural present active subjunctive of prophētō

Online Source - Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prophetetis

Just giving my opinion here and not to further this discussion, It is you who cited Wycliffe, which test has failed since this beg me to offer that it was not translated in the Greek per se. Then you go on to the Latin verb “propheto” with no c or s which again did not match with the actual rendering of the Latin text used by Wyclife. Tyndale on the other hand did a fine translation by going directly to the Greek which was purified by the KJV and the pre-KJV English Lexicons as in the LEME. Linguistic study according to the many sources in the internet is that “sound gives sense” to the meaning and does the picture. It will also be noted as David Norton said that “the danger of spelling changes is that precision of the translation is sometimes obscured.” (David Norton, The King James Bible, A Short History from Tyndale to Today p.165.)

Sources: Phonetics and Phonology
cis01.central.ucv.ro/litere/idd/cursuri/an_3/lb.../CURS%20ID%20SEMANTICA.doc


Yea sure, I will defer doing things in this time about Greek because of my inability even to distinguished its letter. I need to study that first. However, going to a Greek using one or two scholars or authors even adapting enemies thought is very dangerous. Englis

Blessings…

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your reply. Of course the word is in the second person plural, prophetetis. I said the infinitive of the verb is propheto. The 'tis' is the second person plural ending in Latin. The 's' doesn't appear in the stem. A little knowledge really is a dangerous thing.

You mentioned pre-KJV versions and one spelling. I took two at random, Wycliffe and Tyndale and found your claim not to be correct.

So let me understand this correctly. It is fine for Tyndale to have translated the Greek, but not for other scholars to do so? How on earth is this dangerous?

You're entitled to your view, Fred my friend and brother, but I think it faulty.

I unfortunately need to leave this discussion to devote my time to a large translation project of my own but would like to return to it sometime. Perhaps we can discuss this in private messages.

God bless you richly, Fred!

 

[fredoheaven]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your reply. Of course the word is in the second person plural, prophetetis. I said the infinitive of the verb is propheto. The 'tis' is the second person plural ending in Latin. The 's' doesn't appear in the stem. A little knowledge really is a dangerous thing.

You mentioned pre-KJV versions and one spelling. I took two at random, Wycliffe and Tyndale and found your claim not to be correct.

So let me understand this correctly. It is fine for Tyndale to have translated the Greek, but not for other scholars to do so? How on earth is this dangerous?

You're entitled to your view, Fred my friend and brother, but I think it faulty.

I unfortunately need to leave this discussion to devote my time to a large translation project of my own but would like to return to it sometime. Perhaps we can discuss this in private messages.

God bless you richly, Fred!

Hi sir,

This maybe my last post to yours but it seems you've been wrong to conclude me as bias since you said of me as I was saying or that I mentioned Pre-KJV "versions" which for the record I did not. What I have quoted were mostly on a non bias sources, from outside sources. I only just reacted to what you mentioned of Wycliffe and of Tyndale. Here is my exact quote if you may that when I said pre KJv, I am of course quoting my outside sources:

"Not for a Bible version issue still I’ll go for what the common people used in common English even the pre- kJV and until the existence of the KjV.

And for the Bible in English, I am satisfied with the KJB.

Thank you and may God bless you too.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

and we have many examples of the Lords power acting through men of the Lord. and yet there are no examples of men of the Lord speaking angel languages. we even have examples of angels speaking and its in our own language.

And how does your point concerning "angel languages" relate to the Scripture posted concerning God energizing the manifestation?

You did not respond to the issue.

The issue I pointed out to you is that it is God Who energizes the manifestation. The words are from God.

 

[notuptome]

Lunacy indeed.

Do you even care what Scripture says Roger? How many Scriptures do I need to show you that tongues is praying TO God? Just give me the number buddy. How many Scriptures to correct this fallacy in your interpretative bias?

There is no reason to pray to God in a language you do not comprehend.

I ask again what kind of relationship to you have with your heavenly Father? We are told in Hebrews to boldly approach the throne of God.

Here is where your Eastern Mysticism is showing itself. You create a god that cannot be approached. A god like the Muslims worship. A god who is disinterested in people.

I talk to God just like I talk to you. In plain English and with understanding of what I am saying. Read through the Proverbs and see how many times it teaches to get knowledge and with knowledge get understanding and with understanding get wisdom. God wants His children to understand and to be wise all of which requires knowledge. Unknown, unknowable, languages do not produce knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

 

[notuptome]

Roger,

If prophesy is declaring the gospel to lost souls, why is it written it is for believers?

My position on prophesy is what I believe Scripture teaches, but definitely not what Roger teaches.

As far as your whole passage on "1 Co 14:4". First off in order to understand 1 Co 14, you need to start at 1 Co 12. This is a letter written not a passage written. Second off your "explanation" is that Paul wasn't actually being serious and then you ignored all the Scripture before it and after it where he explained how serious this actually was to him. And it is to me.

You are evading and avoiding again. To prophecy is to declare the word of God. Do Christians ever tire of hearing the gospel message? Do Christians need to be assured and encouraged to share the gospel message with every soul they encounter?

From your answer it is clear that you seek additional revelation. You demand God give "Spiritual gifts" to evidence that He is real.

Jon 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass

 

[reneweddaybyday]

A god like the Muslims worship. A god who is disinterested in people.

Is there no end to your disrespect for our God and Heavenly Father?

Now you equate God, our Heavenly Father, with allah --- the same allah who directs islamists to kill all jews, christians, and those who do not bow to him????

Is there no end to your hatred / denial of the manifestation of Holy Spirit as reveals in 1 Cor 12 – 14?

 

[notuptome]

--- you are the one to "manipulate God into contradicting Himself" because you contradict Scripture which indicates

the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal (1 Cor 12:7)

You construe this to mean tongues. The Holy Spirit is indeed given to everyman when they accept Christ as their personal Savior.

God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues (1 Cor 12:28)

Tongues as human languages not ecstatic utterances.

he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries (1 Cor 14:2)

If the men around him do not know the language of course only God will know what he said unless there is someone there to translate, interpret. From what I see in the Greek the spirit in this passage could be his spirit and not the Holy Spirit. It also does not tell us what mysteries he is speaking about. Quite possible that it is only a mystery because no one understands what he is saying.

imo, the statement you made in your post #223 that "tongues are like many modern addictions. Harmful and deadly in many ways" is abusive and harmful.

Perhaps if you had prefaced your statement with something to the effect that misuse of the manifestation of the Spirit is harmful and deadly, I would agree with you.

But your phraseology is that the true operation of the manifestation is harmful and deadly.

And that is a contradiction of Scripture and is a lie.

Far from it. It was phrased to provoke a reaction just like Jesus provoked a reaction from the Jews. Charismatics and Pentecostals have cloaked themselves in religious rituals which they declare to be manifestations, your word, of the Holy Spirit. Does your faith in Christ cease when tongues cease? Will you believe in Christ if there are no tongues?

The cloak of spiritual superiority with which Pentecostals and Charismatics have wrapped themselves is no different than the cloak of moral superiority with which Judaism had wrapped itself.

I do not want this to seem like a personal indictment of you but it is intended to be more toward the Pentecostal and charismatic movements in a corporate sense.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

 

[DP]

If this phenomena had started 1975 even, rather than 1901 it would have been quickly discredited but unfortunately in more than 60 years it has gained such acceptance, and now it is not only about tongues but uncontrollable twitching, bending, jerking, barking and being drunk in the spirit, and the sad thing is no one even questions its veracity and if you do, well you are a skeptic or worse yet perhaps not a true believer.

It's those manifestations that should especially be questioned, because eastern religions manifest those SAME type of manifestations! They call it a Kundalini awakening. It's exactly what began with Rodney Howard Brown and the so-called Toronto Blessing.

If those manifestations are seen in eastern religions like Hinduism, then what are they doing among Christianity? Since when does The Holy Spirit work in Hinduism without belief in The only Savior Jesus Christ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X1HC-3s3uI

 

[UnderGrace]

I am not insisting that you refrain, what I am informing you of, is that when a believer is engaging in this unintelligible prayer language it is the exact same phenomena that occurs when it is a non-believer.

So if it is an angelic language why are non-believers able do the exact same thing? They also experience the same type of euphoria.

I continue in the discussion because I sincerely believe it brings harm to a believers relationship with God and also harms to how we are perceived by the world and our witness to a dying world.

The more you align yourself with Truth the more God is able to reveal Himself to you and send His love to you and not by false psychological experience.

I do not want to sound harsh, I just firmly believe that God has a lot more to offer the believer when they relinquish doctrines of denominations that were invented in 1901.

Speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit and is not "anything above and beyond what God has already given" since it is God Who worketh all in all (1 Cor 12:6).

I do not insist that you must speak in tongues.

Why do you insist that I must not speak in tongues (a manifestation graciously given by God)?

Scratching my head over that ...

 

[emjcares]

[video]https://youtu.be/zIV4poUZAQo[/video]

Sorry, I just can't figure out how to load a video, but the link should work, and it says alot in a little.

 

[DP]

One of the things I noticed with Rodney Brown's supposed laying on of hands, is he did to the person's stomach area, and not on top of the shoulders. In eastern religion, they teach the "serpent force" known as Kundalini the gurus say is rooted at the base of the spine (thus stomach area).