Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[emjcares]

Peter is explaining what is going on to the crowd. He is calling to mind that which Joel prophesied to Israel. Peter cites the passage including the wonders in heaven that are not present at Pentecost. So this is only a partial fulfillment of the prophecy. This is the promised filling of the Holy Spirit with power. This is not a baptism.

One baptism unto salvation many fillings to serve.

Is that the same as being "filled by the Holy Spirit many times"?

Lu 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
Lu 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And yet the question goes unanswered. Are tongues human languages or ecstatic utterances? Human languages unknown to the hearer and requiring an interpreter or ecstatic utterances that could be anything and even with interpretation remain subject to the interpreter?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

Is it possible that in one situation, people started speaking in languages and dialects that they themselves didn't understand, and God sort of did the interpreting, so that the hearers understood in their own language?

But then as time would go on, and things were being taught in churches, in order to keep order(?) God doesn't want people just speaking different languages that would cause confusion, so instead of Him doing a Supernatural interpretation every time in every church, He simply leaves it up to certain believers to be interpretors, so everyone in attendance could understand and be edified?

And if there's no interpretor present, just speak in the one common language?

idk, this whole thing leaves me wondering.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Peter is explaining what is going on to the crowd. He is calling to mind that which Joel prophesied to Israel. Peter cites the passage including the wonders in heaven that are not present at Pentecost. So this is only a partial fulfillment of the prophecy. This is the promised filling of the Holy Spirit with power.

Ok. Got it. Yes … beginning of fulfillment of that which was spoken / written by Joel. Not complete fulfillment as Peter mentions things that, even today, are yet future.

One baptism unto salvation many fillings to serve.

Is that the same as being "filled by the Holy Spirit many times"?

Lu 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
Lu 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

I believe the promise of my Father and the endued with power from on high mentioned in Luke 24:49 is same as the ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you of Acts 1:8, as well as they were all filled with the Holy Ghost of Acts 2:4.

All three verses speak of the same thing ... just different words used for the same thing.

And I like the verse in 2 Cor 4 which mentions we are renewed day by day (2 Cor 4:16). that verse reminds me of how God fed the children of Israel manna each day. They all gathered as much manna as they needed for that day. Just as the children of Israel were cared for on a daily basis, God renews the inward man day by day so that we have exactly what we need in order to withstand all we face today. And we think our afflictions are so heavy and longterm, but God tells us we have a light affliction, which is but for a moment (2 Cor 4:17). Yeah ... God's got some sense of humor.

And yet the question goes unanswered. Are tongues human languages or ecstatic utterances? Human languages unknown to the hearer and requiring an interpreter or ecstatic utterances that could be anything and even with interpretation remain subject to the interpreter?

Sometimes our questions are answered right away, and other times we must (patiently) wait for the answer. But the question not being answered does not negate the working of the Holy Spirit within the believer to energize the manifestation of the Spirit ... whether the manifestation is kinds of tongues; interpretation of tongues; prophecy; or any other manifestation shown in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

 

[kohelet]

I can try and explain it the way I understand.

The word prophecy is a noun. (The last syllable of prophecy is pronounced......... sea.)
The word prophesy is a verb. (The last syllable of prophesy is pronounced.......sigh.)

Again one is a noun as a person, place or a thing.

Scripture, prophecy the noun is that which gives us understanding to what the thing is. Prophecy is the word of God. It is a living word that cannot return void of the purpose by which God sends it. It judges between the spirit and the soul as the intent of every heart that comes under its hearing.

A prophet, a noun is the person that God moves and sends. A prophet is a person God sends with another authority other than oneself. He is an apostle (verb) as one moved by the will of another.. All of those God sends to carry out the great commission, are apostles.( verbs) we attribute nothing they are sent with to them.

What we are to with it, prophecy, as the noun, is “prophesy the verb, the action, we bring it forth as God moves us to do so.

The word prophecy (the noun) is used 21 times in the whole Bible to indicate scripture.

We have also a more sure word “of prophecy”; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.2Peter 1:19

There above we learn prophecy, the word of God as noun is not after the prophet/apostle.

The word prophesy ( the verb )is used differently 78 times.

After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy (this is not to create the word of God but proclaim it as a verb),And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy (this is not to create the word of God but proclaim it as a verb),with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 1Sa 10:5



A distinction between the things of God and those of men must be defined or an improper understanding of words like apostle can in the end of the mater produce a false apostle. as one used as a succession called apostolic succession .

Some changed the word apostle a verb into a noun as the authority of a person and in doing so usurp the authority of God’s prophecy, and make it into a private interpretation. And in doing so usurp the authority of God’s word by assuming its authority could be after o r generated, created by sinful men inspired from earth..

And prophecy is not time sensitive.it does much more that foretell . It gives us God’s witness to whether something is past present or future as in forth telling. One third of Human history had passed by before God moved Moses given to Moses , inspired from heaven, God‘s interpretation written down for our understanding. It through the hearing of Christ’s faith infallibly gives us an accurate account of creation as someone who was there working out His faith.; “ let it be” and there was substance.



I am sure there is someone else my grammar interest are quite new to this old man.

Hi garee,

Forgive the long delay in my replying. I've got a window of opportunity now though. What, you old? I doubt it!

I think there is more to to prophesy than you give the word credit for. There's no doubt that the noun in 2 Peter reference speaks of God's written word (isn't the "until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts" beautiful!) but the word translated "prophesy" in 1 Samuel 10 also means "to sing rapturously". I studied in Germany so only have a Hebrew-German lexicon, but I assure you, that's what it says on p.478 of Gesenius. The word is נָבָא - I say that to appear cleverer than I really am - and the lexicon even gives the verse in 1 Samuel as an example of this definition applying. And it fits. Various musical instruments accompanied the prophesying on this occasion. Saul sang praises enthusiastically when the Spirit came upon him - to instrumental accompaniment!

Let’s cut to the chase though. In the Old Testament, prophecy is generally (that is, other than the singing) the very words of God. In the New Testament, prophecy has a divine origin but also contains a human element, which meant that prophecies could be a bit out in the details. See Agabus as an example. Paul didn't even follow the advice contained in some of his prophecies!

Look after yourself! We 67-year-olds are definitely in the "frail aged" category.

 

[JaumeJ]

What I understand, according to Paul, is that tongues will cease, and so will prophecy, that is prophetic events, come the Kingdom.

You know I love everyone here. I know this because I do not want one soul lost, not one, because this is the Father's desire, and it has become mine with understanding over the years. So if you so not like how I understand a point, fine, I am pleased with my understanding in the sight of our Father, and I know I do not condemn any others for differing with me.

Having said that, from what Paul teaches, tongues will continue to be a gift of the Holy Spirit until the Kingdom comes, and so prophecy. I cannot find any confusion on this issue as coming from the Word via Paul.

Many people doo not seem to be capable of discerning between the gift of tongues for self-edification, and the day of Pentecost when tongues of flames fell upon the Apostles and they spoke the gospel to a mixed c rowd of people and all heard what they had to say in their own languages. This was a sone time only even given to the se "men of renown" by the Holy Spirit as a witness of Jesus Christ. Yes this was a giftof the Holy Spirt, and perhaps a version of what indivituals in varied congregation receive in order to edify the Body of Christ.

Tongues are still quite active, so just because you do not have this gift, do not demean the gift when others possess it. It is not harmful to you..

 

[garee]

Hi Ben

A couple of things I think we should look at if we want to hear God aright through the scriptures.

It is clear that there is a public and private use of the gift of tongues in scripture. Plainly revealed when the apostle Paul says, "Yet in the church I'd rather speak five intelligible words than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Emphasis on "in the church" meaning he does it outside the church. He does it privately.

The words; “Yet in the church” I believe simply means a communication with a at least one person sitting in front of another so they can hear each other.

I believe it is not promoting private interpretations for self-edification as if promoting pride was a part of the gospel call. And therefore not what pride truly is, one of the three avenues ( 1Jo 2:16 ) of the father of lies that would have the believer walk by sight after the experiences of this life saying words that have no meaning and call it a sign gift.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

There is no outward sign that we can say is a gift of God as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit. There are signs and also gifts but never do they together become a blessing as of evidence to something, other than rebellion.

Signs are designed for those who believe not (no faith) those who walk after their own outward experiences according to the imaginations of their own hearts. And not by the unseen faith that comes by hearing God .

The church is always calculated by two or three persons coming together under the authority of the scriptures, the word of God.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

It’s easy to see he uses two or three as a metaphor to represent the church throughout the scriptures. Two by two he sends them out. It has nothing to do where they are but are they in the presence of another person.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

1Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

2Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

1Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

He is not putting his approval on those kinds of offering as to what others cannot understand (mysteries) as if again he was exalting self-edification needed to provide personal pride .

Edifying oneself is not a spiritual gift of God . His gifts always are calculated in respect to at least two . No such thing as the gift of self-edification..

The gift of one God as coming from one mutual faith (Christ’s) is to be used twofold with tongues as with other spiritual gifts (not seen). It is the work of Christ’s faith mutually used for speaking and the other receiving as one work of God. Two by two. Two mutually represents one.

A good example of the duality of the one work of God working to both will and do his good pleasure is below... h he worked to move Paul to bring it and and he worked in the other person so they could understand. One mutual work. in respect to ne faith (Christ ) not of the Christians as if they were in the place of Christ. the anointing Holy Spirit of God.

Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.For I long to see you, “that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift”, to the end ye may be established;”That is, that I may be comforted together with you” by the mutual faith both of you and me. Rom 1:10

Mutual faith that of God

Above he declares; “by the will of God” seeing it was God’s desire for Paul to bring as spiritual gift. Not the will of Paul’s flesh.

While; “that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift”, to the end ye may be established;” It was not for self-edification but was given for a mutual comfort in respect to the comforter teacher and guide our God

Again, it would a seem his gifts are never one sided as in self-edification needed to believe a person has the Holy Spirit as a sign from God. There simply is no outward sign that proves we are walking with God. we walk by faith not by sight experience.

Paul spoke in his langue the Holy Spirit (the interpreter) brought His message in a dialect the other could hear and comfort the person and when the other person spoke Paul heard in his dialect it comforted Paul .

It is I believe how it was used for a short while, while the gospel was communicated By God and spread to the Gentiles .It brought them the comfort of God just as it does us.. The unseen sign that comes by walking by faith .and not by our personal experiences according to the imagination of ones own heart. .

Today missionaries learn other dialects in foreign language school seeing God is no longer bring any new revelation is any manner.

It how we get the gospel out.

Do we inform them they must speak in another language as evidence they have the Holy Spirit? Or walk by the faith of God as it is written?

 

[kohelet]

Hi Ben

A couple of things I think we should look at if we want to hear God aright through the scriptures.


The words; “Yet in the church” I believe simply means a communication with a at least one person sitting in front of another so they can hear each other.

I believe it is not promoting private interpretations for self-edification as if promoting pride was a part of the gospel call. And therefore not what pride truly is, one of the three avenues ( 1Jo 2:16 ) of the father of lies that would have the believer walk by sight after the experiences of this life saying words that have no meaning and call it a sign gift.



1Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

2Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

1Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

He is not putting his approval on those kinds of offering as to what others cannot understand (mysteries) as if again he was exalting self-edification needed to provide personal pride .

Edifying oneself is not a spiritual gift of God . His gifts always are calculated in respect to at least two . No such thing as the gift of self-edification..

The gift of one God as coming from one mutual faith (Christ’s) is to be used twofold with tongues as with other spiritual gifts (not seen). It is the work of Christ’s faith mutually used for speaking and the other receiving as one work of God. Two by two. Two mutually represents one.

A good example of the duality of the one work of God working to both will and do his good pleasure is below... h he worked to move Paul to bring it and and he worked in the other person so they could understand. One mutual work. in respect to ne faith (Christ ) not of the Christians as if they were in the place of Christ. the anointing Holy Spirit of God.

Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.For I long to see you, “that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift”, to the end ye may be established;”That is, that I may be comforted together with you” by the mutual faith both of you and me. Rom 1:10

Mutual faith that of God

Above he declares; “by the will of God” seeing it was God’s desire for Paul to bring as spiritual gift. Not the will of Paul’s flesh.

While; “that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift”, to the end ye may be established;” It was not for self-edification but was given for a mutual comfort in respect to the comforter teacher and guide our God

Again, it would a seem his gifts are never one sided as in self-edification needed to believe a person has the Holy Spirit as a sign from God. There simply is no outward sign that proves we are walking with God. we walk by faith not by sight experience.

Paul spoke in his langue the Holy Spirit (the interpreter) brought His message in a dialect the other could hear and comfort the person and when the other person spoke Paul heard in his dialect it comforted Paul .

It is I believe how it was used for a short while, while the gospel was communicated By God and spread to the Gentiles .It brought them the comfort of God just as it does us.. The unseen sign that comes by walking by faith .and not by our personal experiences according to the imagination of ones own heart. .

Today missionaries learn other dialects in foreign language school seeing God is no longer bring any new revelation is any manner.

It how we get the gospel out.

Do we inform them they must speak in another language as evidence they have the Holy Spirit? Or walk by the faith of God as it is written?

Hi garee,

You're making all kinds of assumptions and jumping to conclusions based on them here.

Getting the gospel out, evangelisation, isn't what Paul is writing about. The Corinthians had already been evangelised and should now be being built up. That's what happens in church, right? There is generally nothing in speaking in tongues that involves interpretation, though the tongues speaker should pray for the gift of interpretation (14:13), says Paul. There is nothing about praying for interpretation of the tongue used privately. The gift, a prayer language, edifies the person using it in prayer.

How do you get from building ourselves up to pride? Here you veer off-track, too. Edifying ourselves is what we should be doing. Not only does Jude tell us to do this, but praying privately in tongues, if we have the gift, would be an appropriate way of doing so, though not the only way (praying in the Holy Spirit is also possible without tongues). In fact, by building ourselves up, we keep ourselves in the love of God! "But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life" (Jude 20,21). The same root word is used by Jude as by Paul, Jude adding a prefix which means "on a foundation".

You're absolutely right - there is no such gift as self-edification. But who is claiming there is? Paul says though, that he thanks God for the gift of tongues he uses privately - more than all the believers at Corinth do. And he intends to keep it up: "I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also" (14:15).

You also say,

"... it would a seem his gifts are never one sided as in self-edification needed to believe a person has the Holy Spirit as a sign from God."

It sounds like you think that self-edification involves pride. How do you come to that conclusion after all Paul has written?

There is nothing about dialects others can understand, garee, either, or Paul would not be encouraging interpretation. And there's nothing in what Paul has written that suggests that tongues involves "the imagination of one's own heart". Then comes another quantum leap to missionaries learning language in language school. They do, of course, but this has nothing to do with tongues and interpretation.

I once thought that the charismatics were more experience-oriented and away with the fairies, while the evangelicals were more solidly and objectively word-based. Actually, the reverse is often the case. People can be so puffed up in their own estimation and so proud of their preconceived view that they stretch and snip God's word to fit it. It's a real worry.

The message of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is that the gifts are good, valid for today and should not be forbidden. In chapter 13 Paul contrasts the partial and the perfect. The perfect obviously hasn't arrived or we would see (God - this is what this construction means) face to face and know "even as we are fully known". This will happen when Jesus comes again or if we die in the meantime. Until that happens, all the gifts continue to function and should be encouraged. They are from God, after all, the Father of light, whose gifts are good and perfect.

 

[garee]

Hi garee,

Forgive the long delay in my replying. I've got a window of opportunity now though. What, you old? I doubt it!

I think there is more to to prophesy than you give the word credit for. There's no doubt that the noun in 2 Peter reference speaks of God's written word (isn't the "until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts" beautiful!) but the word translated "prophesy" in 1 Samuel 10 also means "to sing rapturously".

Hi Kohelet, thanks for the reply much appreciated. Sorry in advance for the rambling.

I would agree we can make music in our hearts as we dwell on the works of God that can work in us according to the good purpose of His will

Psalms 105:2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.

But not just sounds, sounds that speak as words.

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

David who wrote many of the Psalms possibly when tending the sheep I believe used them to quiet the spirit of Saul. This is even though Saul proved to be an enemy of David. It could have been for David’s purpose. God protecting his own interests as he did on other occasions . Seeing the spiritual seed as one , ( Christ) was passed down from him. Even unbelievers can be refreshed with a blessing from God.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

The Pharisees with Sadducees had their own songs as that not inspired by God. They would represent false prophecy I believe. They could not get Jesus to dance. I think it shows us the difference between the wisdom of this world that walks by sight, compared to the wisdom of God, that comes by walking by the faith provided by the true prophecies

They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!But wisdom is justified of all her children. Luk 7:35

I studied in Germany so only have a Hebrew-German lexicon, but I assure you, that's what it says on p.478 of Gesenius. The word is נָבָא - I say that to appear cleverer than I really am - and the lexicon even gives the verse in 1 Samuel as an example of this definition applying. And it fits. Various musical instruments accompanied the prophesying on this occasion. Saul sang praises enthusiastically when the Spirit came upon him - to instrumental accompaniment!

I think it’s clever that you get under the authority of God’s word. I like the way you write. Personally I use the Strong’s Lexicon when looking how a word is used throughout the scriptures. I have this online free bible in which a person simply has to double click on any word and it brings up the Strong’s, and Eastons Bible dictionary which I also use on occasion.

Let’s cut to the chase though. In the Old Testament, prophecy is generally (that is, other than the singing) the very words of God. In the New Testament, prophecy has a divine origin but also contains a human element, which meant that prophecies could be a bit out in the details. See Agabus as an example. Paul didn't even follow the advice contained in some of his prophecies!

I am not seeing that Paul refused to believe the prophecy and even if he did which the apostles occasion did the witnes of God is always greater then the witness of men.

The human element is identified by feet moved by the will of God .Blessed are the feet that bring the words of another,. The washing of feet represents the workings of gospel. God is not served by human hands as a will, he has no needs but satisfies all.

Interesting he is shown himself singing as he brings the gospel of salvation to our hearing.

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Look after yourself! We 67-year-olds are definitely in the "frail aged" category.

It’s can be a great day when we start on the green side of the grass .Days may come when our blessing (declining) we can take for granted do not do their work, as memory loss and other diseases that come from these corrupted bodies for some who do experience those kind of great tribulations.

But the fast from knowing him is awoken daily as long as today is giving us a new day to try to work to please his direction for us. As we hunger for the bread of life he can give us it .I am reminded of what David said...

Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

We I believe need to count the blessing of a memory while we can as revealed in Ecclesiastics I believe.

Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Ecc 12:5

If you are interested I wrote a poem a few years back I could offer. this is when I was reflecting on the blessing of a new day as we walk by faith.

Keep up the faith.

 

[kohelet]

Hi Roger,

I'm wondering a bit about what's being claimed here.

Also in Jude 20 "building up your most holy faith' praying in the Holy Spirit (tongues).
Scripture is most definitely clear. The gift of tongues can be used privately and publicly (with interpretation).

Really? You really assume way to much to have any credibility on the subject.
Jude 10 does not suggest tongues. Praying in the Holy Spirit is not praying in tongues.

Rodge, it seems to me you're making a bit of an assumption yourself. Ben may go a bit far when he says that Jude is referring to tongues (and nothing else, if that is in fact what he's saying). The NT tells us that many activities can be done in the Holy Spirit. It's possible just to be in the Spirit, as John was on the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10), to rejoice in the Holy Spirit (Lk. 10:21), to resolve something in the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:21), to love in the Holy Spirit (Col. 1:18) and more - all of which seem to refer to dwelling consciously in the presence of the Holy Spirit himself. Could what Jude is referring to include praying in tongues? Course it could. Both Jude and Paul are writing about building ourselves up, ἐποικοδομοῦντες and οἰκοδομὴν respectively, the only difference being that Jude adds a prefix to his word, giving it the additional meaning "on a foundation", as I mentioned elsewhere.

But inasmuch as tongues prayed in private is a gift of the Holy Spirit for building ourselves up (1Cor. 14:4) as well as, with interpretation, for building up others in church (1Cor. 14:5), how would you conclude that Jude wouldn't also have had tongues in mind and that Ben has no credibility on the subject? He has more credibility than you give him credit for. And how do you arrive at the conclusion that "Jude does not suggest tongues"? He may not state it, but how does he not suggest it? You don't tell us. Why would you not be assuming at least as much as (you say) Ben is?

Let's all settle down, take a deep breath, have a cup of tea, an aspirin and a nice lie down if necessary and not get all indignant and outraged, shall we? And give reasons for believing as we do, displaying the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the process.

 

[kohelet]

Hi Kohelet, thanks for the reply much appreciated. Sorry in advance for the rambling.

I would agree we can make music in our hearts as we dwell on the works of God that can work in us according to the good purpose of His will

Psalms 105:2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.

But not just sounds, sounds that speak as words.

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

David who wrote many of the Psalms possibly when tending the sheep I believe used them to quiet the spirit of Saul. This is even though Saul proved to be an enemy of David. It could have been for David’s purpose. God protecting his own interests as he did on other occasions . Seeing the spiritual seed as one , ( Christ) was passed down from him. Even unbelievers can be refreshed with a blessing from God.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

The Pharisees with Sadducees had their own songs as that not inspired by God. They would represent false prophecy I believe. They could not get Jesus to dance. I think it shows us the difference between the wisdom of this world that walks by sight, compared to the wisdom of God, that comes by walking by the faith provided by the true prophecies

They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!But wisdom is justified of all her children. Luk 7:35



I think it’s clever that you get under the authority of God’s word. I like the way you write. Personally I use the Strong’s Lexicon when looking how a word is used throughout the scriptures. I have this online free bible in which a person simply has to double click on any word and it brings up the Strong’s, and Eastons Bible dictionary which I also use on occasion.


I am not seeing that Paul refused to believe the prophecy and even if he did which the apostles occasion did the witnes of God is always greater then the witness of men.

The human element is identified by feet moved by the will of God .Blessed are the feet that bring the words of another,. The washing of feet represents the workings of gospel. God is not served by human hands as a will, he has no needs but satisfies all.

Interesting he is shown himself singing as he brings the gospel of salvation to our hearing.

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Look after yourself! We 67-year-olds are definitely in the "frail aged" category.

It’s can be a great day when we start on the green side of the grass .Days may come when our blessing (declining) we can take for granted do not do their work, as memory loss and other diseases that come from these corrupted bodies for some who do experience those kind of great tribulations.

But the fast from knowing him is awoken daily as long as today is giving us a new day to try to work to please his direction for us. As we hunger for the bread of life he can give us it .I am reminded of what David said...

Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

We I believe need to count the blessing of a memory while we can as revealed in Ecclesiastics I believe.

Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Ecc 12:5

If you are interested I wrote a poem a few years back I could offer. this is when I was reflecting on the blessing of a new day as we walk by faith.

Keep up the faith.

Hi garee,

Thanks for your prompt reply! I suppose I was saying that prophecy in Scripture does not always refer to God's written word, not even in the Old Testament, though OT prophets spoke the very words of God, unless the meaning of the word is what Saul did when he was anointed.

You say you don't see that Paul refused to believe Agabus' prophecy. Neither do I. Paul agreed that there would be trouble awaiting him wherever he went, so he considered the prophecy true, but not one with the same weight as OT prophecies, which he would have had to obey. But he didn't obey all of Agabus' prophecies, if I remember rightly.

My point is that prophecy in the early church was of the kind that built people up and had a divine origin but was not the very words of God. A human element was involved and the prophecy could be a bit out in the details.
Yes, please! I am interested in seeing your poem, garee. Please post it!

I'll stop here, I've expressed my opinion on this matter elsewhere. It didn't matter that you "rambled" as you put it. Thanks for writing!

Take it easy (or as we Australians say, "tiger teasy"), my friend!

 

[fredoheaven]

And yet the question goes unanswered. Are tongues human languages or ecstatic utterances? Human languages unknown to the hearer and requiring an interpreter or ecstatic utterances that could be anything and even with interpretation remain subject to the interpreter?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

Like to answer in a way the king's men did. Since we know it, the KJV has the "unknown" tongue which according to Pentecostals/Charismatics is an "ecstatic utterances". The translators emphasized the need for Scripture to be translated into the common, everyday language of the people: Here the quote from the translators to the readers

"But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknown tongue? as it is written, Except I know the power of the voice, I shall be to him that speaks, a Barbarian, and he that speaks, shall be a Barbarian to me. The Apostle excepts no tongue, not Hebrew the [most]ancient, not Greek the most copious, not Latin the finest. o let in the light; that breaks the shell, that we may eat the kernel; that puts asidNature taught a natural man to confess, that all of us in those tongues which we do not understand, are plainly deaf; we may turn the deaf ear unto them. … Translation it is that opens the window, te the curtain, that we may look into the most Holy place; that removes the cover of the well, that we may come by the water, even as Jacob rolled away the stone from the mouth of the well, by which means the flocks of Laban were watered. Indeed without translation into the vulgar tongue, the unlearned are but like children at Jacobs well (which was deep) without a bucket or some thing to draw with ..."

[HR][/HR]​

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

1 Face to face with Christ my Savior,
Face to face--what will it be
When with rapture I behold Him,
Jesus Christ who died for me?
Chorus:
Face to face I shall behold Him,
Far beyond the starry sky;
Face to face in all His glory,
I shall see Him by and by!
2 Only faintly now I see Him
With the darkened veil between,
But a blessed day is coming
When His glory shall be seen. [Chorus]
3 What rejoicing in His presence,
When are banished grief and pain;
When the crooked ways are straightened
And the dark things shall be plain. [Chorus]
4 Face to face--oh, blissful moment!
Face to face--to see and know;
Face to face with my Redeemer,
Jesus Christ who loves me so. [Chorus]

Source: Baptist Hymnal 2008 #612

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The expression “Face to face” means he had seen the appearance of God- Matthew Henry https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Gen/Gen_032.cfm?a=32030

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle
.
What Moses had seen is not the face of God as the face of man since there shall no man see God and live.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deut. 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Ye we shall behold Him! We shall see Him face to face during the rapture or His second coming and we’ll be rewarded or loss the rewards during the JSOC but the promotion of “Face to face” with Jesus does not demonstrate “…then shall I know even as also I am known”. The scripture does! Jesus said

John 14:28 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[JaumeJ]

When Jesus returns the dead in Christ will rise up first then those who believe Him who are alive. As far as I understand, there is no "rapture" previous to the end of the Great Tribulation.

Daniel is clear when he foretells there will be people of understanding during that time who will bring many to the knowledge of truth. He is also clear that the Beast will wage war on the remaining righteous and prevail.

Our Father is not going to leave anyone in this age helpless, for this is not of love.

Come our going up to meet Jesus, that will be the very last day of this age. I do not want people who can be saved"left behind." No one will be left behind except those who have chosen evil...............

God bless all in Jesus Christ, and all who hear Him.....

 

[kohelet]

And yet the question goes unanswered. Are tongues human languages or ecstatic utterances?

I'll answer it, Roger.

What makes you think these are the only options? From what passage in the New Testament do you get the idea that ecstasy is involved, with the sorts of things that accompany it - people in a kind of trance losing awareness of their surroundings, losing self-control and being forced to speak against their will? Some extreme fringe Pentecostal groups have allowed frenzied and uncontrolled behaviour - perhaps this has perpetuated the notion of ecstatic speech.

But where in the Bible do you find this idea? The tongues-speakers Paul was addressing were completely aware of their surroundings and in control of the gift, or there would have been no point telling them to take turns and limit the number speaking in tongues to three. None of this gives support to the idea of any kind of ecstatic speech.

And where from the text do you get the idea that they're human languages? Because this happened once in Scripture doesn't require that it will always happen in world languages, particularly as the 1 Corinthians text suggests the opposite. Paul doesn't say that foreign visitors will understand the tongues, he says no one will understand and the outsider won't know what the person is saying.

In fact, the person speaking in tongues doesn't speak to men, say Paul categorically, but to God. Would God need a human language to understand what's going on? I just don't understand your argument at all. You may be right but you need to flesh out your argument for me a bit.

You continue,

Human languages unknown to the hearer and requiring an interpreter or ecstatic utterances that could be anything and even with interpretation remain subject to the interpreter?

Rodge, the Holy Spirit is the giver of these gifts. Nevertheless, if the hearers can weigh what is said in prophecy, wouldn't this also be the case with tongues + interpretation? You're being far too fearful about this. We test all things, holding onto the good. Job done. Easy. If we argue the point / try to argue away this entire gift of the Spirit, how are we not slighting the Giver?

 

[garee]

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

1 Face to face with Christ my Savior,
Face to face--what will it be
When with rapture I behold Him,
Jesus Christ who died for me?
Chorus:
Face to face I shall behold Him,
Far beyond the starry sky;
Face to face in all His glory,
I shall see Him by and by!
2 Only faintly now I see Him
With the darkened veil between,
But a blessed day is coming
When His glory shall be seen. [Chorus]
3 What rejoicing in His presence,
When are banished grief and pain;
When the crooked ways are straightened
And the dark things shall be plain. [Chorus]
4 Face to face--oh, blissful moment!
Face to face--to see and know;
Face to face with my Redeemer,
Jesus Christ who loves me so. [Chorus]

Source: Baptist Hymnal 2008 #612

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The expression “Face to face” means he had seen the appearance of God- Matthew Henry https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Gen/Gen_032.cfm?a=32030

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle
.
What Moses had seen is not the face of God as the face of man since there shall no man see God and live.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deut. 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Ye we shall behold Him! We shall see Him face to face during the rapture or His second coming and we’ll be rewarded or loss the rewards during the JSOC but the promotion of “Face to face” with Jesus does not demonstrate “…then shall I know even as also I am known”. The scripture does! Jesus said

John 14:28 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Supernatural God which denotes no nature as a beginning simply who has no form. Therefore he has no literal face.

Face to face is reckoned as faith (believing ) to faith (believing.) Faith as the light of his word, the lamp unto our feet is that which illuminate our heart so we can see him by what he says.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Satan, the father of lies or god of this world is the one that insist in the literal face to face needed to believe there is a God.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[garee]

Thanks for your prompt reply! I suppose I was saying that prophecy in Scripture does not always refer to God's written word, not even in the Old Testament, though OT prophets spoke the very words of God, unless the meaning of the word is what Saul did when he was anointed.

Hi thanks again for the reply....

I look at it this way. All prophecy of scripture is God moved. Prophecy is God witness as someone there knowing the intent of a person’s heart. None of prophecy of scripture God’s interpretation is according to the witness and therefore will of man as that which he calls private interpretation .

You say you don't see that Paul refused to believe Agabus' prophecy. Neither do I. Paul agreed that there would be trouble awaiting him wherever he went, so he considered the prophecy true, but not one with the same weight as OT prophecies, which he would have had to obey. But he didn't obey all of Agabus' prophecies, if I remember rightly.

It does not take the witness of men to approve it is of God. Whether Paul believed a certain prophecy or not would not change the fact it originated with God. He is not served by human hands in any way shape or form

My point is that prophecy in the early church was of the kind that built people up and had a divine origin but was not the very words of God. A human element was involved and the prophecy could be a bit out in the details.

The way the detail emerges does not change the intent of the one author( not the apostles).

Prophecy (God’s word) does not change from one generation to the next as to its origin. The word heard is verified by that which is written, it either blesses the person speaking or bring an evil as in no blessing.

Tongues like all spiritual gifts are not seen. There is no such thing as a sign gift...we walk by faith.Not by experience walking by sight.

Tongues is one of the many manner he used added to scripture to bring divine revelation. . Tongues are revelations from God which is after no man. They have a dual purpose and never to edify just one.

Self-edification builds pride.(walking by experience or by sight) Prophecy builds up the church (more than one person )

Mentioning self-edification does not mean he sets his approval on it. When the one sent speaks he speak his own language member of the same gift receiving the gift hears it in his own and when he spoke Paul heard it in his language. It a two sided conversation God in terpreting form both , comforting both hearts by one mutual faith, Christ’ s..

Take it easy (or as we Australians say, "tiger teasy"), my friend!

I love Australia . And I will take the it "tiger teasy" twice LOL

Here is the poem


Walking in the wilderness of Love.

In the dawning of your love... this day breaks forth anew, the fast is surely broken, as I awake my spiritual hunger turns towards you.

Now looking for your precious love that has awoken me and me finds me waiting here... filling my cup to overflowing..... This is your love for sure, as the Great I Am, leads us to where we are going.

Your love has so awakened me, as it has desired so this cannot be mistaken where your love leads me, I will surely go.

Looking in hopeful anticipation the gate of your fellowship swings open to this day anew and in humble adoration we follow, as your lamp unto our feet............ leads us through.

Step by step we follow your path as the light of your word guides our hearts from above. Marveling at the fact for our trespass you did pay, but stop and ask why?

Walking with joy towards your mansion, we pause to drink from your living water of delight. This raises our hope like putting on armor; we are strengthened by the authority of your’ might.

Times along this journey are sometimes rough we know... a stone of a false gospel may cause us to stumble, and that dark valley, so, so far......... below.

We sometimes feel overshadowed falling behind. In this dark and dreary valley, how much longer....the occurring theme that echoes in our mind?

Suddenly lifted high in visions of rapture... upon the solid Rock of Christ, we stand. We look in anticipation for you to speak a word.... but we find we can only sigh. We ask that we might see your face, we ask... please do not deny.

Suddenly we find ourselves in a cleft of a Rock, as the place we firmly stand. Could this be the answer of seeking your face.. your gracious and loving reply?

The cloud of your presence now veils the light as your Glory passes by. Blinded by this wonderful grace. Suddenly your veil now is lifted high.

Sounds of battle we faintly hear, as we look our vision still blurry and marred. You are the victor of our faith, our Holy shield, and our rear guard.

Us stragglers and strays you left not behind but in love said follow me.. By this love you made the victory sure, by your blood you set us free.

Such unfailing love that rescues those you bought, such love that knows no end, we thank you Jesus for being our Savior, and also for being our loving friend.

 

[notuptome]

I'll answer it, Roger.

What makes you think these are the only options? From what passage in the New Testament do you get the idea that ecstasy is involved, with the sorts of things that accompany it - people in a kind of trance losing awareness of their surroundings, losing self-control and being forced to speak against their will? Some extreme fringe Pentecostal groups have allowed frenzied and uncontrolled behaviour - perhaps this has perpetuated the notion of ecstatic speech.

But where in the Bible do you find this idea? The tongues-speakers Paul was addressing were completely aware of their surroundings and in control of the gift, or there would have been no point telling them to take turns and limit the number speaking in tongues to three. None of this gives support to the idea of any kind of ecstatic speech.

And where from the text do you get the idea that they're human languages? Because this happened once in Scripture doesn't require that it will always happen in world languages, particularly as the 1 Corinthians text suggests the opposite. Paul doesn't say that foreign visitors will understand the tongues, he says no one will understand and the outsider won't know what the person is saying.

In fact, the person speaking in tongues doesn't speak to men, say Paul categorically, but to God. Would God need a human language to understand what's going on? I just don't understand your argument at all. You may be right but you need to flesh out your argument for me a bit.

You continue,

I see only one option. You are endeavoring to create more than one not me. You are attempting to draw from these scriptures justification for acts that are not justified by scripture. Tongues are a result of Gods judgment upon mankind. Remember the tower of Babel. Were it not for the tower of Babel we would all still speak the same language, tongue. Tongues were a sign to Israel when they went into captivity. Again a sign of Gods judgment. Tongues can only be human languages. Tongues must be human languages because there is interpretation from another who understands the language as I believe the speaker understands it.

It is simply immature to suggest that only god understands and even the speaker does not understand and is somehow edified. Historical context makes Corinth a city in which many traders and merchants from all over the known world did business. Many foreign languages or tongues were present in the city. Interpretation was not only in business but also in the forwarding of the gospel.

Rodge, the Holy Spirit is the giver of these gifts. Nevertheless, if the hearers can weigh what is said in prophecy, wouldn't this also be the case with tongues + interpretation? You're being far too fearful about this. We test all things, holding onto the good. Job done. Easy. If we argue the point / try to argue away this entire gift of the Spirit, how are we not slighting the Giver?

I am objecting to the practice of tongues in the modern church. Prophecy is the forth telling of Gods word the bible. There is no fortune telling in prophecy. The word of God is complete which in the old English was referred to as perfect.

Praying in tongues the person does not comprehend is merely a construct of those who see themselves as hyper-spiritualists and desiring mystical powers not seen among common folks. Much the same attitude that Israel had toward the other nations because God had elected them to be the vessels through which the deposit of the word of God would come and the Redeemer of all mankind would be born.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kohelet]

Hi thanks again for the reply....

I look at it this way. All prophecy of scripture is God moved. Prophecy is God witness as someone there knowing the intent of a person’s heart. None of prophecy of scripture God’s interpretation is according to the witness and therefore will of man as that which he calls private interpretation .



It does not take the witness of men to approve it is of God. Whether Paul believed a certain prophecy or not would not change the fact it originated with God. He is not served by human hands in any way shape or form



The way the detail emerges does not change the intent of the one author( not the apostles).

Prophecy (God’s word) does not change from one generation to the next as to its origin. The word heard is verified by that which is written, it either blesses the person speaking or bring an evil as in no blessing.

Tongues like all spiritual gifts are not seen. There is no such thing as a sign gift...we walk by faith.Not by experience walking by sight.

Tongues is one of the many manner he used added to scripture to bring divine revelation. . Tongues are revelations from God which is after no man. They have a dual purpose and never to edify just one.

Self-edification builds pride.(walking by experience or by sight) Prophecy builds up the church (more than one person )

Mentioning self-edification does not mean he sets his approval on it. When the one sent speaks he speak his own language member of the same gift receiving the gift hears it in his own and when he spoke Paul heard it in his language. It a two sided conversation God in terpreting form both , comforting both hearts by one mutual faith, Christ’ s..


I love Australia . And I will take the it "tiger teasy" twice LOL

Here is the poem


Walking in the wilderness of Love.

In the dawning of your love... this day breaks forth anew, the fast is surely broken, as I awake my spiritual hunger turns towards you.

Now looking for your precious love that has awoken me and me finds me waiting here... filling my cup to overflowing..... This is your love for sure, as the Great I Am, leads us to where we are going.

Your love has so awakened me, as it has desired so this cannot be mistaken where your love leads me, I will surely go.

Looking in hopeful anticipation the gate of your fellowship swings open to this day anew and in humble adoration we follow, as your lamp unto our feet............ leads us through.

Step by step we follow your path as the light of your word guides our hearts from above. Marveling at the fact for our trespass you did pay, but stop and ask why?

Walking with joy towards your mansion, we pause to drink from your living water of delight. This raises our hope like putting on armor; we are strengthened by the authority of your’ might.

Times along this journey are sometimes rough we know... a stone of a false gospel may cause us to stumble, and that dark valley, so, so far......... below.

We sometimes feel overshadowed falling behind. In this dark and dreary valley, how much longer....the occurring theme that echoes in our mind?

Suddenly lifted high in visions of rapture... upon the solid Rock of Christ, we stand. We look in anticipation for you to speak a word.... but we find we can only sigh. We ask that we might see your face, we ask... please do not deny.

Suddenly we find ourselves in a cleft of a Rock, as the place we firmly stand. Could this be the answer of seeking your face.. your gracious and loving reply?

The cloud of your presence now veils the light as your Glory passes by. Blinded by this wonderful grace. Suddenly your veil now is lifted high.

Sounds of battle we faintly hear, as we look our vision still blurry and marred. You are the victor of our faith, our Holy shield, and our rear guard.

Us stragglers and strays you left not behind but in love said follow me.. By this love you made the victory sure, by your blood you set us free.

Such unfailing love that rescues those you bought, such love that knows no end, we thank you Jesus for being our Savior, and also for being our loving friend.

Thanks for sharing you poem, garee, I love it. So nice to read it.

We can disagree about some of the other things you mention without getting our noses out of joint. We're brothers, after all.

I'm keeping this short because my iPad battery is almost flat (6% and counting down fast). Look after yourself!

 

[fredoheaven]

Face to face is reckoned as faith (believing ) to faith (believing.) Faith as the light of his word, the lamp unto our feet is that which illuminate our heart so we can see him by what he says.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Satan, the father of lies or god of this world is the one that insist in the literal face to face needed to believe there is a God.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Hi Sir Garee,

Yea ”face to face with Jesus” has nothing to do with tongues at all. It is the scriptures that is being spoken of on this subject. Amen!

But I am not saying we cannot see Jesus’ face when He returns for even Apostle John had said and I am taking this literally as what the scriptures says.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Even during Jesus earthly ministry, He appeared in human body not a just a phantom. He was touched, seen and handled and as Apostle Paul says great is the mystery, God manifested in the flesh! And according to the writings of Luke, the same Jesuss shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Yes, today believing what the scripture says means we can know God and Christ! (Hebrews1:1, 6).

God bless you

 

[kohelet]

Hi Roger,

Thanks very much for writing; I really appreciate your taking the time to reply. Let's go through your points one by one.

I see only one option. You are endeavoring to create more than one not me.

Well, actually no, you may see only one viable option but you provided two: "Are tongues human languages or ecstatic utterances?" you said. I offered a third one. I'm not sure you addressed it in your reply.

You are attempting to draw from these scriptures justification for acts that are not justified by scripture. Tongues are a result of Gods judgment upon mankind. Remember the tower of Babel. Were it not for the tower of Babel we would all still speak the same language, tongue. Tongues were a sign to Israel when they went into captivity. Again a sign of Gods judgment.

Let's consider the passage Paul quotes from, Isaiah 28:11. The meaning of it is found in an earlier warning of God to Israel in Deuteronomy 28:49. If Israel violated the covenant, God would punish them by sending a foreign enemy, speaking in a foreign tongue. Confusing speech was, as you rightly say, a sign of God's judgement. This was the judgment that Isaiah had said would come on Israel when the Assyrians invaded and conquered the northern kingdom.

You say elsewhere,

Do tongues in the modern church conform to biblical purposes? Are they for a witness to the unsaved Jews?

meaning, I suppose, that this was their purpose in the Corinthian church and they should have this function if they're used in the church of today too; they served as an evangelistic tool to bring Jews to repentance.

Even if this were so, nowhere in the New Testament is it restricted or reduced to this one purpose. Tongues also serve the "common good" of the body of Christ (1 Cor, 12:7). In 14:4 tongues are said to edify the individual in private prayer. Roger, I've yet to see you quote from this end of the chapter. We need to avoid the error of reductionism.

But let's tease out the implications of what you're saying. If tongues was not a spiritual gift for the church, why did Paul allow it to be exercised and used in the church at all? But he did. Tongues with interpretation was permitted. How do you explain this if, as you say, its only purpose was to declare judgment against unbelieving Jews? If uninterpreted tongues were intended to bring them to repentance, why would it be necessary for God to provide the accompanying gift of interpretation? Interpretation only makes sense if speaking in tongues is beneficial to Christians in the church.

Also, if God intended tongues to serve as a sign for unbelieving Jews, Paul would not have counselled against the gift's use when unbelievers were present (1 Cor. 14:23). Here the contrast is between believer and unbeliever, not Jew and Gentile.

The principle that Paul finds in Isaiah 28:11 that applies to Corinth and us is that when God speaks to people in a language they do not understand, it is a form of punishment for unbelief. Incomprehensible speech won't lead people to repentance, so if unbelieving outsiders come into the church when only tongues are being spoken, they will be driven away. They are being given a "sign" that is completely wrong, because their hardness of heart won't have reached a point where they deserve judgment as severe as this. So, when believers come together (1 Cor.14:26), if anyone speaks in a tongue, someone must interpret (v.27), otherwise the tongue-speaker must keep silent (v.29).

So Paul is not talking about the function of the gift in general, but only about the negative result of a particular abuse of the gift: its use without interpretation in the church.

Tongues can only be human languages. Tongues must be human languages because there is interpretation from another who understands the language as I believe the speaker understands it.

I don't understand how you arrive at this conclusion, Roger, at all. I'm sure this reflects more on me though, than you. So these aren't manifestations of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:6) but human abilities?

The way I see it is this. In 1 Cor. 14:2 we read that whoever speaks in a tongue "does not speak to men but to God". But if tongues are always human languages, Paul is wrong, because "speaking to men" is what human language does! He goes on to say that when a person speaks in tongues "no one understands". But if tongues is always a human language, many would understand, as they did at Pentecost, especially in Corinth, a multilingual cosmopolitan city, as you correctly point out.

Perhaps you think that 1 Cor. 14:10,11, where Paul refers to world languages, proves that tongues are human languages. But the point of Paul's analogy is that tongues function like human languages, not that they are human languages. If tongues were a foreign language there would be no need for an analogy.

Paul saying in 1 Cor. 14:18 that he speaks "in tongues more than you all" is evidence that tongues are not human languages. If they were, why would Paul speak more than all the Corinthians in private, where no one would understand, rather than in church, where foreign visitors would understand? And if tongues is always a human language, Paul's words in 14:23, "If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?" wouldn't always hold true. Any unbeliever who could understand the language being spoken would likely conclude that the person speaking was highly educated rather than "out of [his] mind".

It is simply immature to suggest that only god understands and even the speaker does not understand and is somehow edified. Historical context makes Corinth a city in which many traders and merchants from all over the known world did business. Many foreign languages or tongues were present in the city. Interpretation was not only in business but also in the forwarding of the gospel.

I addressed this earlier. Paul spoke of manifestations of the Spirit, not learned skills. It may be "simply immature" to believe this. I'm not the cleverest. But I'd like to see you really address what Paul has written rather than lob insults. It can only help clarify things.

I am objecting to the practice of tongues in the modern church. Prophecy is the forth telling of Gods word the bible. There is no fortune telling in prophecy. The word of God is complete which in the old English was referred to as perfect.

It can have that definition but it isn't the only one. How would you describe what Agabus was doing (Acts 21)? It's fine to object to a thing but a lot better to provide reasons for doing so.

Praying in tongues the person does not comprehend is merely a construct of those who see themselves as hyper-spiritualists and desiring mystical powers not seen among common folks. Much the same attitude that Israel had toward the other nations because God had elected them to be the vessels through which the deposit of the word of God would come and the Redeemer of all mankind would be born.

You've given us the "hyper-spiritual constructs, mystical powers" in the past. Roger, what we need is for you to deal with the whole of the text relating to these things in 1 Corinthians. I'd welcome your thoughtful and systematic dismantling of the views I've expressed here. I've been wrong about things in the past, it's quite possible I'm mistaken here too.

For the convincing of Roger,
Kohelet

 

[garee]

Paul saying in 1 Cor. 14:18 that he speaks "in tongues more than you all" is evidence that tongues are not human languages. If they were, why would Paul speak more than all the Corinthians in private, where no one would understand, rather than in church, where foreign visitors would understand? And if tongues is always a human language, Paul's words in 14:23, "If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?" wouldn't always hold true. Any unbeliever who could understand the language being spoken would likely conclude that the person speaking was highly educated rather than "out of [his] mind".

Hi Kohelet

My thoughts

They were human languages of different dialects or the speaker is simply speaking into the air, inspired of his own self coming from the imaginations of his own fleshy heart and mind...

Paul was put in a place as the apostle to the Gentiles in respect to many nations, therefore many dialects. It is likely the reason he communicated as a two way communication more than others.( No self-edification, a form of pride.)

The interpretation is a revelation exclusively from God. Not from the speaker or the hearer. It was needed for the other to understand and vice versa, when the other spoke the interpretation as a revelation from heaven was given to Paul. The gifts were never one sided, both parties received the blessing .....when God was still bringing new revelations...

No such thing as a “sign gift”. It would seem those two words appose each other. His gifts are spiritual as that not seen, the faith principle. Signs are for those who believe not(no faith)Prophecy for those who do believe, they walk by faith. Walking after one’s own experiences as the imaginations of a heart is walking by sight. There is nothing we can do outwardly that could confirm we have the Holy Spirit.

If believing God through His word our once source of faith is not enough then the skies the limit. Those who do seek after what they call sign gifts, I believe could benefit by taking it to heart that God is no longer bringing new revelations in any manner to include the interpretation of words persons have no understanding unless God from heaven did give it for.

If they believe speaking in a unknown language shows they have the Holy Spirit they might as well drink poison of a serpent or be slain in the spirit falling back .Both signs that speak of rebellion, again the one purpose of signs.