Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[BenFTW]

I think you should start a thread on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you can say there are two and I can say there is one....do it!!

There are so many sites that debate this that I don't even wish to discuss it. lol If there is such a secondary experience, maybe with the possibility that it exists you should seek the Lord on it. Couldn't hurt to ask Him, now could it?

 

[UnderGrace]

Well then, let me join the "un answered question club" (because I doubt I'll get an answer to this question.

If Paul said "Do all speak in tongues" when the answer was/is no, then how can having the Holy Spirit be evidenced by the speaking of tongues?

Well I am not sure I am exactly reading this correctly, but not all people that manifest this supposed gift believe it is the only evidence of the Holy Spirit, although I know some do teach this.

 

[fredoheaven]

Here is a good article from the book I recently read:

Does not Scripture talk about two types of tongues: (1) known tongues in Acts 2, and (2) unknown tongues in 1 Corinthians 14?

Some charismatics argue that the tongues they speak today are not “known” tongues (ie, foreign languages), but “unknown” ones (ie, ecstatic utterances) as found in 1 Corinthians 14. Is this a correct reading of 1 Corinthians 14?

It needs to be clarified that the “unknown tongue” (so KJV) of 1 Corinthians 14 is not ecstatic speech but foreign language. It is “unknown” in the sense that the spiritually gifted believer is able to speak in a foreign language he has never heard or learned before, and that it is unknown or unintelligible to the hearer who does not know or understand the language spoken. In ordinary circumstances, when a person speaks in tongues in his own native church, no man understands; only God understands since He understands all languages (1 Cor 14:2). Thus the one who speaks in tongues edifies only himself since without an interpreter or translator, he is the only one who understands what he is saying (1 Cor 14:4). Paul emphasised the importance of understanding, “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (1 Cor 14:19). It is clear that the unknown tongue Paul referred to consists of “words,” not “sounds.” Ecstatic tongues-speaking produces a lot of sounds, but is gibberish and meaningless. That there is a legitimate form of tongues-speaking which is ecstatic is most foreign to Paul’s mind.

The main theme of 1 Corinthians 14 is the importance of understanding for edification. Edification (1 Cor 14:3,4,5,12,17,26) comes by way of understanding (1 Cor 14:2,7,9,14,15,16,19). Paul pointed out that prophesying is superior to tongues-speaking. The gift of prophecy is the gift of being able to foretell and forthtell the will and word of God. When the prophet speaks, he speaks to his own people in their own native tongue. The members of the church benefit from the words spoken because they are able to understand the message given. Paul makes this very clear with an illustration from music (1 Cor 14:7-8). Music is music only if there is a tune or melody. How does one expect to appreciate music when the pianist plays only a single note throughout, or a random string of notes that does not make up a tune? So unless one speaks in a language that others can understand, one is wasting one’s breath (1 Cor 14:9). Likewise, a language has vocabulary, grammatical forms, and syntactical structures. As Paul said, “There are . . . so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification” (1Cor 14:10). When a person prays in tongues, he prays with his heart as well as with his mind (1 Cor 14:15). In other words, he knows what he is saying and can identify the language he is speaking. A genuine tongues speaker would be able to analyse the language he has spoken by identifying the different words he has used, and their respective meanings. The Holy Spirit is perfect. The gifts that come from Him are perfect. The tongues-speaker when endowed with the supernatural ability to speak in a foreign language would be perfectly proficient in that language. He would be able to write out the content of his speech, list the vocabulary, and demonstrate the grammatical-syntactical relationship of the words. Are modern-day tongues-speakers able to do this?

For the gift of tongues to be beneficial to the congregation in general, the gift of interpretation is required. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 says, “If any man speak in an unknown tongue, . . . let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” Since our God is a God of order and not of confusion (1 Cor 14:33), it is necessary to conclude that the tongues speaker understands what he says in order for him to confirm that the interpreter has translated his tongue correctly. Otherwise, false interpreters could easily arise to give a spurious message without being detected. Those who have the gift of interpretation also serve to check false tongues-speakers because if their speech is gibberish, they would be able to authoritatively dismiss it as spurious. Just as a prophet is judged by another prophet (1 Cor 14:29 cf, v32), the tongues-speakers are judged by the interpreters, and vice versa. If there were no such checks in place, there would be chaos, and deception would be rampant.

Taken from: Charismaticism Q &A, Jeffrey Khoo pp. 27-29

 

[UnderGrace]

There are so many sites that debate this that I don't even wish to discuss it. lol If there is such a secondary experience, maybe with the possibility that it exists you should seek the Lord on it. Couldn't hurt to ask Him, now could it?

Well I guess it is a bit off topic but I do agree that while there is one sealing, one baptism, the Spirit is always there and sometimes there is just a pouring out of Himself to help is our hour of our need, although I do not see this as a manifestation (do not like that word particularly) but more that it is divine Love that is shed abroad in our hearts because He first loved us.

 

[BenFTW]

Here is a good article from the book I recently read:

Does not Scripture talk about two types of tongues: (1) known tongues in Acts 2, and (2) unknown tongues in 1 Corinthians 14?

Some charismatics argue that the tongues they speak today are not “known” tongues (ie, foreign languages), but “unknown” ones (ie, ecstatic utterances) as found in 1 Corinthians 14. Is this a correct reading of 1 Corinthians 14?

It needs to be clarified that the “unknown tongue” (so KJV) of 1 Corinthians 14 is not ecstatic speech but foreign language. It is “unknown” in the sense that the spiritually gifted believer is able to speak in a foreign language he has never heard or learned before, and that it is unknown or unintelligible to the hearer who does not know or understand the language spoken. In ordinary circumstances, when a person speaks in tongues in his own native church, no man understands; only God understands since He understands all languages (1 Cor 14:2). Thus the one who speaks in tongues edifies only himself since without an interpreter or translator, he is the only one who understands what he is saying (1 Cor 14:4). Paul emphasised the importance of understanding, “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (1 Cor 14:19). It is clear that the unknown tongue Paul referred to consists of “words,” not “sounds.” Ecstatic tongues-speaking produces a lot of sounds, but is gibberish and meaningless. That there is a legitimate form of tongues-speaking which is ecstatic is most foreign to Paul’s mind.

The main theme of 1 Corinthians 14 is the importance of understanding for edification. Edification (1 Cor 14:3,4,5,12,17,26) comes by way of understanding (1 Cor 14:2,7,9,14,15,16,19). Paul pointed out that prophesying is superior to tongues-speaking. The gift of prophecy is the gift of being able to foretell and forthtell the will and word of God. When the prophet speaks, he speaks to his own people in their own native tongue. The members of the church benefit from the words spoken because they are able to understand the message given. Paul makes this very clear with an illustration from music (1 Cor 14:7-8). Music is music only if there is a tune or melody. How does one expect to appreciate music when the pianist plays only a single note throughout, or a random string of notes that does not make up a tune? So unless one speaks in a language that others can understand, one is wasting one’s breath (1 Cor 14:9). Likewise, a language has vocabulary, grammatical forms, and syntactical structures. As Paul said, “There are . . . so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification” (1Cor 14:10). When a person prays in tongues, he prays with his heart as well as with his mind (1 Cor 14:15). In other words, he knows what he is saying and can identify the language he is speaking. A genuine tongues speaker would be able to analyse the language he has spoken by identifying the different words he has used, and their respective meanings. The Holy Spirit is perfect. The gifts that come from Him are perfect. The tongues-speaker when endowed with the supernatural ability to speak in a foreign language would be perfectly proficient in that language. He would be able to write out the content of his speech, list the vocabulary, and demonstrate the grammatical-syntactical relationship of the words. Are modern-day tongues-speakers able to do this?

For the gift of tongues to be beneficial to the congregation in general, the gift of interpretation is required. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 says, “If any man speak in an unknown tongue, . . . let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” Since our God is a God of order and not of confusion (1 Cor 14:33), it is necessary to conclude that the tongues speaker understands what he says in order for him to confirm that the interpreter has translated his tongue correctly. Otherwise, false interpreters could easily arise to give a spurious message without being detected. Those who have the gift of interpretation also serve to check false tongues-speakers because if their speech is gibberish, they would be able to authoritatively dismiss it as spurious. Just as a prophet is judged by another prophet (1 Cor 14:29 cf, v32), the tongues-speakers are judged by the interpreters, and vice versa. If there were no such checks in place, there would be chaos, and deception would be rampant.

Taken from: Charismaticism Q &A, Jeffrey Khoo pp. 27-29

That understanding is horribly incorrect. Any tongue speaker would tell you that they do not understand what they are saying, at least not all the time unless the Lord grants interpretation. The tongue speaker needs an interpreter not only for those he/she is ministering to, but also for himself. He doesn't have a clue what he is saying, why do you think there is a verse that says to pray for the interpretation? If they already knew what they were saying, they wouldn't need to pray for interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

VVhy do people insist on jumping through hoops and doing all kinds of magic to avoid the obvious description of an unknown tongue and the need for it to be interpreted? VVhy is it so important for believers to dismiss the experience fellow believers are manifesting that goes in line with scripture perfectly? Its just horrendous.

 

[mpaper345]

Funny how there are so many folks claiming the gift of tongues, but I've never seen anyone drink poison and not die as proof of their Holy Spirit mojo.

Jesus said when He comes back will He find faith,and also at this time there will be many hypocrites that have a form of godliness;but deny the power thereof,and lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,and lukewarm Christians,that say they are increased with goods,and say they have need of nothing,which God said He will spew them out of His mouth,and evil men shall wax worse,and worse,and people will become more self exalting as time goes on,and since iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold,and they will be so self exalting,that the time will come that they will not listen to the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts.

So a whole lot is not going to be done among people claiming to be with Christ,as far as miracles,and signs,and wonders,but when the beast kingdom approaches closer,and the world is together trying to solve their problems,in which they eventually cut God out of the picture,it will straighten out the hypocrisy of a lot of people claiming Christ,for they will not want to play around at that time,and the beast kingdom will separate those that love God,from those who do not love God.

Also I do not know if this applies,but it could be that God is not allowing a lot of signs,and wonders,to be done among the saints,which the Pharisees wanted a sign,and Jesus said only a wicked,and adulteress,generation,requires a sign,but no sign will be given it,but Jonas three days,and three nights,in the belly of the whale.

The Bible tells us of the last generation before Jesus comes back,that will be the worse generation in selfishness,arrogance,and self exaltation,to the point of devouring the poor from off the earth,and the needy among men

Also God is allowing the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him will follow the beast kingdom,and when they take the mark,they have no chance of being saved,and God can take His children to be with Him.

With those factors involved that the last generation will be worse than any other generation before it,that the Bible says when they get to the beast kingdom,the transgressors have come to the full,and God is giving the world 7 years to have their way,and rebel against Him,it could be that God is not allowing a lot of signs,and wonders,which God said that He is going to send strong delusion to all people who do not love God,that they will follow the beast kingdom,for they loved not the truth,but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It could be that God is not allowing a lot of signs,and wonders,and miracles,at least not in the sight of the world,because of the time we are in.

Also when it comes to people that handle snakes on purpose,or do something that is dangerous on purpose,and then say God deliver me,probably will not get delivered,which Jesus said do not tempt the Lord thy God,which means do not put yourself in a dangerous position on purpose,and then say God save me.

Also God said it is a precious thing the death of His saints,for then they are with Him.

I believe it is because of a lot of hypocrisy,but also because of the time we are in,and God is ready to wrap it up,and put an end to this sin business,so it could be no sign will be given it,for if they have not believed the Gospel after it has been preached in to all the world,the world knows about it,then will they ever accept it,and the Bible says the Gospel must be preached in to all nations,and then the end shall come.

It could be God is done with the signs,and wonders,and miracles,on the level of the past,for He is ready to wrap this sin business up,and bag it up like garbage,and get rid of it.

 

[fredoheaven]

God said, “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak...the word of the LORD”
Isa. 28:11, 13, 14

The scripture defines the “stammering tongue” in Isa. 33:19, not as a speech impediment or an ecstatic utterance, but as a known language of “a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand” (Gen. 11:7).

“With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak...saith the Lord.”
1 Cor. 14:21

God’s word must be in other tongues if men are to “be born again by the word of God,” “preach the word,” and finally be judged by “the word.” No translation means no learning, no comfort, no hope.

“For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope” (Rom. 15:4)

 

[fredoheaven]

That understanding is horribly incorrect. Any tongue speaker would tell you that they do not understand what they are saying, at least not all the time unless the Lord grants interpretation. The tongue speaker needs an interpreter not only for those he/she is ministering to, but also for himself. He doesn't have a clue what he is saying, why do you think there is a verse that says to pray for the interpretation? If they already knew what they were saying, they wouldn't need to pray for interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

VVhy do people insist on jumping through hoops and doing all kinds of magic to avoid the obvious description of an unknown tongue and the need for it to be interpreted? VVhy is it so important for believers to dismiss the experience fellow believers are manifesting that goes in line with scripture perfectly? Its just horrendous.

The problem of the Corinthians church is that they were zealous in the spiritual gifts especially speaking in other language not known to the church. While early believers have such gift, they were intended for unbelievers whenever the Gospel is preached. A believer in Corinth may just want this gift of tongue so as edify himself. That may be true during the early church, yet Paul speaks of the church may edified and not to just seek for self-edification hence, a strict compliance of rules is needed to fulfill its intended purpose, and that women were not permitted to do so. Since Paul is addressing the church not an individual, he would rather encourage prophesy more than speaking of tongue. For Paul, desiring this kind of gift is just like producing sounds with no sense or signification (1 Corinthians 14:10) except he interprets because he is no longer edifying himself but the church (1 Corinthians 14:5, 13) yet it is even clearer that in the church Paul would rather speak in five words with his understanding so that he could teach others than thousands of words (not just sounds) of a language not yet heard or known by the Corinth Christians. (1 Corinthians14:19).

Pardon me but I really don’t know, if it this really goes in line with the scriptures to anyone who has experienced this kind of gift nowadays. Nevertheless, experience that is operating in an emotional level though may seem to be in line with the scriptures is not at par to or above the scriptures.

God bless.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well reneweddaybyday you are absolutely correct it was added to emphasize the idea that Paul was talking about a foreign

tongue since it was well known to be a city with many dialects and languages, in the KJV is it italicized, if you could just

understand the the word Greek means language then maybe you truly see what this chapter is about

You presume to know what was in the minds of the translators when the word "unknown" was added to the text.

It is same in other languages, in Italian the word lingua means tongue the physical tongue andlanguages.

You read the word tongue and you automatically associate it with some mysterious utterances from the Holy Spirit.

Not so, UnderGrace. I only associate the word "tongue" with the manifestation of kinds of tongues when the context warrants the same.

Read chapter 14 and substitute the word language and maybe you will see what Paul was truly dealing with a carnal self-absorbed church that lacked love with people that were showing off.

Why would I change/manipulate the Word of God in such a manner?

Is that how you study to show yourself approved unto God?

Wow, I rather reason with someone who studies in the original language and has a solid foundation in the faith than put my

faith in a manifestation that re-emerged in 1901 as supposed biblical language.

You do not know that God did not energize the manifestation in the period of time prior to 1901. Your source has no ability to know whether God energized.

I suppose you also believe that angel

feathers, gold dust and diamonds will be making their appearance across the nation in due time too!

Can’t/won’t answer the questions so you engage in fallacy?

Does your Koine Greek scholar believe the manifestation of kinds of tongues was still energized by God in our day and time? And if he/she does, would you still study under him/her?

Or would you drop him/her and look for a Koine Greek scholar who has the same disdain for the manifestation you do?

I could say more about these manifestations but I will leave it there.

What additional information do you have to add that you have not already expressed (emphasis on additional as opposed to a restatement of your claims as previously posted)?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

They said they know what it was like at the Corinthian church and how they acted, so I joked about them being a vampire (immortal) and having witnessed it firsthand.

Scripture tells us what was going on in Corinth. Apologies for not clarifying that in my earlier post. The believers in the Church at Corinth were carnal and the Church needed instruction.

 

[BenFTW]

Scripture tells us what was going on in Corinth. Apologies for not clarifying that in my earlier post. The believers in the Church at Corinth were carnal and the Church needed instruction.

I knew what you meant, I was only joking. Thank you for defending the truth. Inevitably it is tiring when dealing with Cessationism in its different forms, not to mention people horrendously misrepresenting scripture. If you have the endurance by all means continue, but don't allow yourself to get worn out.

 

[kohelet]

Well then, let me join the "un answered question club" (because I doubt I'll get an answer to this question.

If Paul said "Do all speak in tongues" when the answer was/is no, then how can having the Holy Spirit be evidenced by the speaking of tongues?

By the fact that the gifts are given to believers, who have the Holy Spirit.

 

[kohelet]

I was referring to Mark 16:17.

Some claim the gifts of the spirit but not THAT one.

Are you saying that drinking poison is a gift of the Spirit?

 

[wattie]

G'day Mick,

Thanks for the thought-provoking comments. Ephesians 4 would fit like a glove the view that the bible is the unity of faith if you believe that evangelists, pastors and teachers were also superseded by the writing of the bible. The gifts you say were in operation "TILL 'we all come to the knowledge of the unity of the faith'" include these. You'd have in mind all the gifts Paul mentions, right?

Again,

The pastor remains.. the evangelist remains.. this passage isn't talking about their role ending, but supernatural gifts that empower what they do being put away.

A pastor can now speak forth the Word of God thru the bible, without the need for the gift of prophecy.

An evangelist can go and preach on the street, without the need for the gift of evangelism or knowledge.

Their position hasn't ended. The supernatural gifting has. That's the difference.

They are still put in the position by God, still doing God's work, still need to be faithful in their ministry.. are still empowered by God. Just not with the gifts.

And again.. there are things happening after the point of the unity of the faith coming..

Surely with the 2nd coming of Christ.. if that is what Ephesians 4 is about.. there would nothing further to be done after the point of Him coming, for believers.

After the 2nd coming.. absolutely NO believer is going to be 'tossed about with every wind or doctrine'. Yet Ephesians 4 speaks of this as something that is ongoing..with the unity of the faith being what nullifies it.

 

[kohelet]

Again,

The pastor remains.. the evangelist remains.. this passage isn't talking about their role ending, but supernatural gifts that empower what they do being put away.

A pastor can now speak forth the Word of God thru the bible, without the need for the gift of prophecy.

An evangelist can go and preach on the street, without the need for the gift of evangelism or knowledge.

Their position hasn't ended. The supernatural gifting has. That's the difference.

Wattle old mate,

Well no, you might be separating some gifts from the others in this passage but Paul isn't. He includes all the giftings in the one verse (v.11): "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers" continuing "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (v.13, the verse you made so much of, capitalising "till").

If you were consistent you'd say that because we have the bible, the thing that brings us to unity in the faith, we wouldn't need pastors, preachers and teachers either. We have God's word, after all, and it is this that brings us all to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Your heart is in the right place but there is nothing either here or in 1 Corinthians that supports your view. The irony is that this view of yours, which takes us away from what Paul is saying, proves that the unity in the faith can't mean having the bible. If it did, believers wouldn't be "tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine" - and in fact we wouldn't be disagreeing - but believers still can be and often do careen away from scripture from one wacky view to the next.

Incidentally, I don't believe Paul is referring to Jesus' return here - but he is in the 1 Corinthians passage. Perhaps we should focus on that one.

Hoo roo!

 

[garee]

So it's more "face" with a lisp? Sorry, just joshin'.

No its more of a face with a grin, as in if you grin you're in. LOL. No smirks your're out.

 

[garee]

Are you saying that drinking poison is a gift of the Spirit?

The ones that are trusting what some call sign gifts , say its an outward evidence a person has received a gift not seen .

The scripture does not use the term "sign gift". A outward sign of a the plague of unbelief(no faith) yes.

 

[garee]

Officermayo, I really do not see how these two relate to each other?

They are both equally considered sign gifts that prove a person has the Holy Spirit.

 

[garee]

A pastor can now speak forth the Word of God thru the bible, without the need for the gift of prophecy.

Speaking forth the Word of God thru the bible is to prophesy.... which is to declare the of word of God called prophecy, not to speak the word of the pastor as his own private interpretation or commentary of what he thinks the word of God is personally teaching him. .

 

[garee]

That's right, Mick. There is only one perfect. To understand what it is, we need to ask ourselves whether we see face to face and know even as we're fully known. The perfect will do away with the partial, according to Paul. This would mean that all the gifts are partial and the parousia is the perfect. Calvin believed this and called any view that makes the perfect something that happens Before Jesus comes again (or we die) "stupid".

So yes, I don't see that scripture is "the perfect" because of 1 Cor. 13:12.13.

And faith, hope and love aren't gifts, actually.

The faith of Christ, not of our own selves after the imagination of our heart.... is the gift that keeps on giving gives us a living hope according to His three day labor of love.