Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[Officermayo]

Well I am not sure I am exactly reading this correctly, but not all people that manifest this supposed gift believe it is the only evidence of the Holy Spirit, although I know some do teach this.

Go to just about any charismatic church (I've attended dozens) and read their Statement of Faith. There you'll see the declaration to which I refer.

 

[garee]

One thing I have noticed in the use of the term “speaking in tongues”.

It is a clear misrepresentation of the actual work that God performs (not the speaker). Rather a better way to understand that temporal manner that God by which God brings new prophesies.... which is not inspired by the speaker would be the gift of interpretation of tongue. Or the gift of hearing another another’s persons, work of faith . Seeing the faith to believe God ‘s prophecy is of Christ and not of men like Peter or Paul . It applies to both. And not as it was a one sided work of interpreting one .Or both would be speaking into the air with no way to expound .

Picture the Ethiopian eunuch and Phillip as if they spoke different languages which could be very likely.

How would he give the gospel without mutual dialog? Which would be God interpreting to one without the other? I know its speculation but how we could know the Spirit of Christ was not mediating between the two according to the manner of tongues?

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Act 8:34

 

[garee]

Drinking poison and surviving is not a gift (of the nine) of the Holy Spirit. Its divine protection, just like the apostle Paul was bit by a snake/viper and it did no harm to him.

Acts 28:1-6King James Version (KJV)

28 And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.
2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.
3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god

What was the spiritual meaning of that parable? Its hid from some or at least those who died trying to give it a literal meaning. .

 

[notuptome]

Thanks Rodge, for your reply.

You don't really address my question about more than one perfect though, which would have to be the case if gifts were phased out at different times in history. Paul doesn't seem to be saying that though. "When the perfect comes," he says, "the partial will pass away."

As for the idea of signs being for Jews and specifically tongues being a sign for unbelievers, I agree with you to a point, see my post #299, p.60.

The NT completes or perfects to OT. Lets not forget that the early primitive apostolic church was preaching Jesus through the OT scriptures. The OT presented shadows of the truth which were made clear in the NT.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wattie]

Wattle old mate,

Well no, you might be separating some gifts from the others in this passage but Paul isn't. He includes all the giftings in the one verse (v.11): "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers" continuing "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (v.13, the verse you made so much of, capitalising "till").

If you were consistent you'd say that because we have the bible, the thing that brings us to unity in the faith, we wouldn't need pastors, preachers and teachers either. We have God's word, after all, and it is this that brings us all to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Your heart is in the right place but there is nothing either here or in 1 Corinthians that supports your view. The irony is that this view of yours, which takes us away from what Paul is saying, proves that the unity in the faith can't mean having the bible. If it did, believers wouldn't be "tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine" - and in fact we wouldn't be disagreeing - but believers still can be and often do careen away from scripture from one wacky view to the next.

Incidentally, I don't believe Paul is referring to Jesus' return here - but he is in the 1 Corinthians passage. Perhaps we should focus on that one.

Hoo roo!

To clarify what I am meaning-

There is a supernaturally empowered office of the Pastor, teacher, evangelist etc.. which is what the gifting is about.. then there is carrying out the pastorship, teaching, evangelising with the Word of God, the bible as your guide without the need for supernatural assistance in the office.

But yes.. Ephesians 4 is more of a supporting passage than a main one for looking at spiritual gifts. So I'm happy to focus on something else.

 

[UnderGrace]

Go to just about any charismatic church (I've attended dozens) and read their Statement of Faith. There you'll see the declaration to which I refer.

Well I doubt that will happen, thanks for answering though.

 

[CharlieGrown]

Go to just about any charismatic church (I've attended dozens) and read their Statement of Faith. There you'll see the declaration to which I refer.

I'm astonished that a charismatic church can still be found, if we're talking about the traditional type of church that held that title from the 80's and 90's. How does a modern day "charismatic" church compare?

 

[kohelet]

To clarify what I am meaning-

There is a supernaturally empowered office of the Pastor, teacher, evangelist etc.. which is what the gifting is about.. then there is carrying out the pastorship, teaching, evangelising with the Word of God, the bible as your guide without the need for supernatural assistance in the office.

But yes.. Ephesians 4 is more of a supporting passage than a main one for looking at spiritual gifts. So I'm happy to focus on something else.

Paul doesn't distinguish between them here in the Ephesians passage though, Mick, - or anywhere else, for that matter - so this doesn't support what you're saying. You're putting a preconceived idea on the text and stretching it to fit it. This is exactly what the people do who carry people astray with every wind of doctrine. You do see the irony here, right? None of us has arrived, Mick, and what you're saying demonstrates it.

Now don't be silly.

 

[kohelet]

The NT completes or perfects to OT. Lets not forget that the early primitive apostolic church was preaching Jesus through the OT scriptures. The OT presented shadows of the truth which were made clear in the NT.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I absolutely agree, Rodge, on this point. I'm not sure how it address what I wrote but it's nice to agree on some things.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I knew what you meant, I was only joking.

not an issue, BenFTW --- we’re good.

 

[kohelet]

No its more of a face with a grin, as in if you grin you're in. LOL. No smirks your're out.

garee my friend, you've done it again, completely lost me - but this time in just one line! You're improving!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The ones that are trusting what some call sign gifts , say its an outward evidence a person has received a gift not seen .

Just to clarify, garee (and I hope/pray you can discern the distinction) ---

The manifestation of the Spirit is not an outward evidence a person has received a gift not seen.

The manifestation of the Spirit is an outward evidence of the Holy Spirit having energized within the born again believer.

1 Corinthians 12:

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Vs 11 ---

all these all listed in vss 8-10

worketh – Greek energei energize


The Holy Spirit energizes within the believer and the outward evidence is word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues.

 

[kohelet]

The scripture does not use the term "sign gift".

That's right, garee, it doesn't. It's good that you say "what some call" sign gifts. I think that using this term confuses the issue.

 

[Officermayo]

I'm astonished that a charismatic church can still be found, if we're talking about the traditional type of church that held that title from the 80's and 90's. How does a modern day "charismatic" church compare?

As I had no involvement with them until 2000, I can't say how they compare with the "old tyme religion" so to speak. Here's what they had in common:

Belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by the speaking in tongues.
Foot washing ceremonies.
If not KJO a very STRONG tendency to only use the KJV in church services.
Belief in healing, to include healing services (at which I was a "catcher").
Name It And Claim It, Word of Faith, Prosperity Gospel
And last but not least - HUGE praise team to include the ever present Big Ol' Honkin' Set Of Drums (and occasionally the old lady flag twirling brigade.

 

[kohelet]

As I had no involvement with them until 2000, I can't say how they compare with the "old tyme religion" so to speak. Here's what they had in common:

Belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by the speaking in tongues.
Foot washing ceremonies.
If not KJO a very STRONG tendency to only use the KJV in church services.
Belief in healing, to include healing services (at which I was a "catcher").
Name It And Claim It, Word of Faith, Prosperity Gospel
And last but not least - HUGE praise team to include the ever present Big Ol' Honkin' Set Of Drums (and occasionally the old lady flag twirling brigade.

Hi Officermayo,

I think of the charismatics the way CharlieGrown does. It wasn't they who believed that tongues is the evidence of baptism in the Spirit, it was the Pentecostals, and it's still a Pentecostal distinctive. The modern faith movement is in a category all of its own. Like D.R. McConnell who wrote a book on it, I think it is a different gospel. It looks like you're a bit over this kind of thing and I don't blame you, at all.

I like the idea of a big worship team - it has a kind of Old Testament feel, but with electricity. But I'm all for the more modern experimenting with new ways of worship, don't get me wrong: noses in hymn books, one hand in the hip pocket, a kind of detached look on the face. [cough]

When I think "charismatic" I think spiritual renewal in the mainline churches - Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic - and I think it's wonderful.

 

[Officermayo]

Hi Officermayo,

I think of the charismatics the way CharlieGrown does. It wasn't they who believed that tongues is the evidence of baptism in the Spirit, it was the Pentecostals, and it's still a Pentecostal distinctive. The modern faith movement is in a category all of its own. Like D.R. McConnell who wrote a book on it, I think it is a different gospel. It looks like you're a bit over this kind of thing and I don't blame you, at all.

I like the idea of a big worship team - it has a kind of Old Testament feel, but with electricity. But I'm all for the more modern experimenting with new ways of worship, don't get me wrong: noses in hymn books, one hand in the hip pocket, a kind of detached look on the face. [cough]

When I think "charismatic" I think spiritual renewal in the mainline churches - Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic - and I think it's wonderful.

And what is the name of the magazine of modern day Pentecostals?

CHARISMA

As to worship, I was the worship leader at two different churches between 2000 and 2006. The first was an independent church that came out of the Rhema/Kenneth Hagin movement (which ironically Hagin literally stole from E.W. Kenyon. In some cases you can take a Hagin book and lay it along side a Kenyon book and they are word for word identical).

The other church was AOG. Less emphasis on the Name It And Claim It, but LOTS of "tongues" flyin' around. Can't say if it was God Himself, the Holy Spirit or just my own mentality but I resigned and moved on. I became a professional visitor and went to just about every church in my area - many denominations. Finally began going to a house church. That's where I found the truth of the scriptures minus any man's traditions.

I prefer the modern style of music for worship but in most cases it becomes entertainment and a showcase for local talent that just couldn't make it in Nashville.

 

[kohelet]

And what is the name of the magazine of modern day Pentecostals?

CHARISMA

As to worship, I was the worship leader at two different churches between 2000 and 2006. The first was an independent church that came out of the Rhema/Kenneth Hagin movement (which ironically Hagin literally stole from E.W. Kenyon. In some cases you can take a Hagin book and lay it along side a Kenyon book and they are word for word identical).

The other church was AOG. Less emphasis on the Name It And Claim It, but LOTS of "tongues" flyin' around. Can't say if it was God Himself, the Holy Spirit or just my own mentality but I resigned and moved on. I became a professional visitor and went to just about every church in my area - many denominations. Finally began going to a house church. That's where I found the truth of the scriptures minus any man's traditions.

I prefer the modern style of music for worship but in most cases it becomes entertainment and a showcase for local talent that just couldn't make it in Nashville.

Wouldn't The Pentecostal Evangel be the official magazine of the Pentecostals? Charisma might be too if they're allowed to have two, I don't know, but they do believe in the charismata, so why not, I suppose.

 

[Talishi]

Certainly tongues have ceased in any event, since they now consist of no known language, and therefore cannot possibly be of use in spreading the gospel to other peoples and kindreds.

 

[kohelet]

Certainly tongues have ceased in any event, since they now consist of no known language, and therefore cannot possibly be of use in spreading the gospel to other peoples and kindreds.

What makes you think that this is their purpose, Talishi, since the person with the gift of tongues speaks not to men but to God (1 Corinthians 14:2) on the one hand and to believers (with interpretation) for their edification (v.5) on the other?

1 Corinthians is a didactic text - provides instruction - whereas Acts, which I suppose you have in mind, is a narrative, simply recounting something that happened, with no indication that this is what tongues will continue to be in the future.

 

[Talishi]

1 Corinthians is a didactic text - provides instruction - whereas Acts, which I suppose you have in mind, is a narrative, simply recounting something that happened, with no indication that this is what tongues will continue to be in the future.

Do you remember when some churches in the 1990s had "barking like a dog in the spirit" ? That is what tongues have become, and Paul would be rolling in his tomb.