Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[fredoheaven]

For anyone that is interested in the subject of tongues in the early church. Here is an article with quotes from the early fathers.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church

Here is another website that talks about tongues speaking in the church by different people in different places.

Talking Pentecostalism: The history of tongues

If I went to an atheist website to see whether or not Jesus is real - I would come away with a different viewpoint then the reality that Jesus is real and He is Lord.

Where we go to "find" out truth matters. Go to a website that doesn't believe in any one truth of scripture - and they will have some kind of human reasoning why that truth isn't "biblical" anymore.

Gleaning from the site above: Let me just post this quotes and below is my comment:

From the site:

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

My Comment:

This quote may have been a third hand or fourth hand evidence or a copy of copies from outside sources and still needs further verification. Now taking Eusebius for example, in that he even ever didn't mentioned of the “gibberish tongues” but the Gospel was heard with their whole mind.

From the site:

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

My Comment:

Accordingly, this is the declaration of the mysteries of God using all kinds of languages. Not a bit of “babble sound”.


God bless

 

[UnderGrace]

Yup that was about the extent of what they to had to say about it...very little!

And we still have no mention of private prayer language, thank you for looking it up though, interesting it was a charismatic web site.

Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

The declared mysteries of God was the work that he did through His Son and the cross, not some mysterious language. God never spoke to anyone in Bible in a mysterious language. God always spoke in intelligible language and we have no record of Jesus doing that either.

If anyone would have employed such a type of prayer certainly it would been Him when He spoke and prayed to the Father in the Garden. Surely the apostles would have recorded it if Jesus had used an unknown unintelligible private language.

Jesus sets the pattern .....no other

I am just gonna have to use this little emoticon it is just too cute......

For anyone that is interested in the subject of tongues in the early church. Here is an article with quotes from the early fathers.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church

Here is another website that talks about tongues speaking in the church by different people in different places.

Talking Pentecostalism: The history of tongues

If I went to an atheist website to see whether or not Jesus is real - I would come away with a different viewpoint then the reality that Jesus is real and He is Lord.

Where we go to "find" out truth matters. Go to a website that doesn't believe in any one truth of scripture - and they will have some kind of human reasoning why that truth isn't "biblical" anymore.

 

[fredoheaven]

Still according to the given site quoting the Fiction works of Dean Farrar, Darkness and Dawn. This is to quote a tale tell story and not a good evidence.
https://archive.org/details/darknessdawnorsc00farrrich


"The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues."

 

[garee]

Hi garee,

I think that Strong's is saying that both words refer to the same thing and refer to both foretelling and forth-telling.

Big difference between the two.

One refers to what is being declared (the word of God) prophecy (ending in cy) The other what we are called as apostles(sent ones) are to do with it prophecy (prophesy) ending in sy . The differences is in what it (prophecy) is and what those do with it.(prophesy) Big difference

We can agree to disagree though. Our salvation isn't dependent on getting this right. What you quote does make it quite clear though, I think.

Salvation might not be but understanding the difference needs to be expressed. Words have meaning attached to them. It the same with the word apostle . adding another meaning or taking away the original to the word can change the direction of the intent of the new author. No editing.

 

[Cee]

He never says his mind does not understand. The point is the exact opposite. He is saying what is the point of words no one not even the person saying them can understand.

1 Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

If I pray in a language, my breath prays, but my mind is unfruitful. That's what you're saying this means?

Paul says that when his spirit prays his mind isn't INVOLVED.

We see that because of the NEXT verse...

15What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Since Paul's mind isn't INVOLVED, he involves his mind by praying with it ALSO.

What you're teaching by changing the words the translators used for the Greek's 2nd and 3rd meanings doesn't fit the context even slightly.

So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 1 Cor. 14:9

Yes this is true. "So it is with you" Paul is explaining that since tongues is only understandable by God UNLESS there is an interpreter, they are "speaking into the air".

He even concludes this idea with his next thought just a few verses later:

13Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding . . . but in understanding be men" (verses 19, 20).

This is his point.

Both the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy were an intelligent communication of the truth. Both functioned for the proclamation and communication of the gospel. But in the Corinthian church Paul contrasts speaking in tongues with the gift of prophecy. The one was incoherent and unedifying. The second was by intelligent expression.

To edify is to create a better knowledge and moral improvement, for all their tongue speaking whatever was going on there, something was very wrong at Corinth, since Paul had to address so many issues there, and their problems continued well past the first century.

Maybe because they exalted experience over Truth? Paul did his best but apparently his words are still lost on people.

Unfortunately his words are still definitely lost on some people.

Paul is emphasizing LOVE not Truth.

Paul's entire argument revolves around one idea:

1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

And until you understand that and allow that to be true. You're going to have to keep tearing apart the context. You haven't mentioned prophesy in your conclusions at all.

But Scripture is crystal clear...

Desire spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy.

The reason why Paul says you need an interpreter around people is because of LOVE. Love doesn't build yourself up only when you're around people. Love builds up others and that is what prophesy does.

1 Co 14:12So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

Manifestation of the Spirit which you are trying to say is wrong to emphasize, there is nothing wrong with experience, but there is something completely wrong with not operating out of love.

What was wrong with the Corinth church was people were praying in tongues only and Paul said this is good, but I show you a more excellent way.

1 Co 12:31But earnestly desire the higher gifts.And I will show you a still more excellent way.



That's why 1 Co 13 he says even if I know all mysteries, and speak in the language of men and angels, if I have not love I have nothing.

That's why he said when the perfect comes all the temporary things will be done away with. The perfect is not Scripture that is such a gross misrepresentation it's not even funny. The perfect is Love. God is love.

C.

 

[kohelet]

Truly the world prophesy is used as a verb and can simply mean to teach or declare God's Word. It doesn't have to mean prophesying about some future event affecting the Church or some special direction for a Church. The way Apostle Paul is using it in 1 Corinthians means to teach, because he points out what one is prophesying (teaching) is to be understood.

Hi garee,

Predictive text wants to change your name to "agree"! And I do, with some things you're saying. I'd like to know though, how you have decided that the meaning Paul was giving to prophecy was "teaching". Perhaps it was through reading 1 Corinthians 14:31, "For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged." If people are learning, they are being taught, right? But you say prophecy has to mean teaching because it is to be understood.

Well maybe. I can learn of and understand God's faithfulness and love and concern for me by his speaking something through someone who is totally unaware of the circumstances I'm facing, for example, reassuring me that he knows about the situation and is in control. This way of understanding the meaning of the word makes the most sense to me because Paul is encouraging the whole church to earnestly desire this gift (14:1). Paul has earlier said, "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing..." and so on (v.28). He continues, "Are all prophets? Are all teachers?" (v.29), distinguishing between the gifts.

He does so again in chapter 14. "How will it benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?" (v.6). I don't think Paul is meaning that, of all these gifts, just prophecy (with you meaning of teaching) is understandable. A revelation is understandable because it reveals something, right? Knowledge has to involve understanding too. And teaching (the regular, non-prophetic kind, if it is in a different category from what you understand as prophetic teaching) is also understandable.

Can you point to a specific verse or verses that support your view? Because I've now read 1 Corinthians 12-14 several times as I've been writing this and can't see any. They just don't seem to be there.

 

[kohelet]

Hi garee,

I think that Strong's is saying that both words refer to the same thing and refer to both foretelling and forth-telling.

Big difference between the two.

One refers to what is being declared (the word of God) prophecy (ending in cy) The other what we are called as apostles(sent ones) are to do with it prophecy (prophesy) ending in sy . The differences is in what it (prophecy) is and what those do with it.(prophesy) Big difference



Salvation might not be but understanding the difference needs to be expressed. Words have meaning attached to them. It the same with the word apostle . adding another meaning or taking away the original to the word can change the direction of the intent of the new author. No editing.

I don't know about the -sy/-cy thing, garee. I can't find any modern versions of the bible where the two appear as nouns. Can you point me to some?

I just wrote about words having meanings attached to them without having seen this comment of yours. I was trying to work out the meaning of teaching you give to prophecy.

As for Strong, he is using -sy for the verb and -cy for the noun and gives both meanings, foretelling and forth-telling for each. Or am I missing something? You might have to spell this out for me, garee. I just can't see what you're talking about. Can someone else help us out maybe? Small brain, here. Thanks!

 

[UnderGrace]

Cee stated,

Paul is emphasizing LOVE not Truth.

Okay, well you may want to rethink this, seriously I really think you do....really... now I mean how can this be, I think you may have been thinking of a Beatles song or something...you know like .......All you need is Love..this is not what Paul said.

1st Corinthians 13:4,6 that Paul says, “Charity... Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.” As evidenced by 1st Corinthians 13:6, Biblical love rejoices in THE TRUTH.

John 1:14...We have seen his glory, the glory of the Only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
His very words are truth, I am the way the truth and the life!

Love Never exists outside of Truth when it comes to God and his ways.

 

[fredoheaven]

That's why he said when the perfect comes all the temporary things will be done away with. The perfect is not Scripture that is such a gross misrepresentation it's not even funny. The perfect is Love. God is love.

C.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthian 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Believe it or not if the word “perfect” is love, then love ceased because the great manifestation of the love of God is the giving of our Lord Jesus Christ as He died for our sins. Yes, we cannot separate love from God because God is love yet we cannot also separate God from the truth because God is truth, Jesus is the truth and His words are true.

The truth is it cannot be ‘love” that was being described as perfect, the only plausible interpretation as in the context is the scriptures of truth. The “glass” simply speaks of the words of God. It cannot be said of Christ either because He is the “image of the invisible God” who hath declared the Father. Much is not clear and one is seeing in a dark glass if that’s love.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Colossian 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[RickyZ]

I'm curious... If prayer language tongues don't exist and is pure meaningless babble, would God reward such heresy during such a false prayer by providing knowledge and revelations that help others to find and praise Him?

(This ought to be interesting...)

 

[UnderGrace]

I'm curious... If prayer language tongues don't exist and is pure meaningless babble, would God reward such heresy during such a false prayer by providing knowledge and revelations that help others to find and praise Him?

(This ought to be interesting...)

Can you give a concrete example.

People are able to provide knowledge and understanding with their own minds, hearts and spirit, and I am not saying this is a bad thing it is a good thing, God wants us to exhort and minister to each other, the Holy Spirit can move in these situations but it does not have to be in a supernatural language. It comes from our spirit that is united with God in fellowship.

Why would a different language even begin to be necessary and when in scripture did God ever use an unintelligible language to speak to us. Why Jesus never prayed like this, He is our model after all.

Why is regular language not enough....It is indeed always interesting!!

 

[RickyZ]

Can you give a concrete example.

People are able to provide knowledge and understanding with their own minds, hearts and spirit, and I am not saying this is a bad thing it is a good thing, God wants us to exhort and minister to each other, the Holy Spirit can move in these situations but it does not have to be in a supernatural language. It comes from our spirit that is united with God in fellowship.

Why would a different language even begin to be necessary and when in scripture did God ever use an unintelligible language to speak to us. Why Jesus never prayed like this, He is our model after all.

Why is regular language not enough....It is indeed always interesting!!

Here's an example: http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/6579-vickis-story.html, the readers digest version is that while praying in the Spirit for a friend, I received knowledge of and she was led from danger to safety and comfort in the Word of God. This is just one of many examples I could share.

It's true that Jesus never prayed in tongues (that we know of). But He did say His believers would. Not His apostles but His BELIEVERS.

Why is regular language not enough... asked and answered many many times already. Again, if you're not open to hearing answers it's kinda useless to ask the questions... is it not?

 

[Cee]

Of course, but that's not what he's emphasizing. Do a word search in the context from 1 Co 12 and 1 Co 14, for the words "truth" and "love". Tell me which one Paul is talking about more?

Yes we need truth! But that statement is comparing "iniquity" and "truth". It has nothing to do with our discussion though. Paul is showing us what LOVE LOOKS like, but rejoicing in truth is a part of love. But not the whole thing. And also his focus is on love not on truth. So I'm really not sure what you're arguing with me about here.

Cee stated,



Okay, well you may want to rethink this, seriously I really think you do....really... now I mean how can this be, I think you may have been thinking of a Beatles song or something...you know like .......All you need is Love..this is not what Paul said.

1st Corinthians 13:4,6 that Paul says, “Charity... Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.” As evidenced by 1st Corinthians 13:6, Biblical love rejoices in THE TRUTH.

John 1:14...We have seen his glory, the glory of the Only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
His very words are truth, I am the way the truth and the life!

Love Never exists outside of Truth when it comes to God and his ways.

 

[Cee]

It doesn't say love will cease. It says the imperfect will cease.

What are you saying it can not be love??? The entire context of 1 Co 13 is love... If I have not love, I am nothing. Love is this... love is that... and all these things you care about they will CEASE... but the PERFECT (LOVE) will remain...

Seriously guys, then he finishes off 1 Co 13 and goes into Pursue LOVE... the entire context of 1 Co 12 - 14 is love... Paul's entire argument is spiritual gifts yes, but pursue love not gifts. Because LOVE is the perfect.

In 1 Co 12, Paul's focus on gift priority is those that help people and love people...
If you don't have love.. you have nothing, are nothing, and gain nothing... 1 Co 13!
Don't seek tongues around people, seek prophesy because it builds others up... 1 Co 14

But you are trying to tell me, that Paul in his 1 letter, is saying without love we are nothing, love is, love is that, we need love, oh and by the way gifts are going to cease when Scripture is "perfect"... but back to my discussion about love, but I show you a better way pursue love and earnestly desire gifts...

Do you realize that you are saying all spiritual gifts have ceased because of 1 Scripture? That's such a huge theological decision to base on 1 Scripture especially one that has nothing to do with the context surrounding it. And is very vague and can be taken a lot of meanings... But on this ONE Scripture you are willing to say the following:

1. Gifts cease
2. People who function in gifts are deceived
3. And all that stuff Jesus said believers would do? Yeah that's not for us either.

But why? Oh because of this ONE Scripture. You think Paul spends all of 1 Co 12 and 1 Co 14 talking about 3 specific gifts... but he completely NIXES the entire thing in 1 Co 13:8??? Why even write 1 Co 14 then? And why even write "forbid not in tongues". Because according to you, he forbade tongues in 1 Co 13:8??? But then in 1 Co 14:1 he says DESIRE gifts! Paul obviously forgot what he wrote in 1 Co 13:8 according to these interpretations.

Have you thought this through?

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthian 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Believe it or not if the word “perfect” is love, then love ceased because the great manifestation of the love of God is the giving of our Lord Jesus Christ as He died for our sins. Yes, we cannot separate love from God because God is love yet we cannot also separate God from the truth because God is truth, Jesus is the truth and His words are true.

The truth is it cannot be ‘love” that was being described as perfect, the only plausible interpretation as in the context is the scriptures of truth. The “glass” simply speaks of the words of God. It cannot be said of Christ either because He is the “image of the invisible God” who hath declared the Father. Much is not clear and one is seeing in a dark glass if that’s love.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Colossian 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Cee]

Great questions...

First off Jesus prayed alone.
And we do have Scriptures of Him "sighing, groaning, and muttering intelligible things"

As far as why letting the Spirit pray through us?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Remember TONGUES is between God and you.
Prophesy is given for people, that's why it builds THEM up and not you.
Tongues bypasses the MIND and allows the Spirit to pray the perfect will of God.
Remember the focus of God is on His Will being done here on Earth as it is in Heaven.
The Spirit in us is praying to His Spirit.
This is the Spirit crying "Abba Father".

This is called "Praying in the Spirit". I do NOT believe tongues is the only way to pray in the Spirit, but it definitely is a WAY. And extremely powerful. There is a reason why prayedPaul in tongues more than anyone else and why he desired everyone to pray in tongues because it's a good thing. But the way you embrace it, is understanding that God is not just found in Scripture, He's a Living God that desires fellowship with us today, right now, in a REAL experiential way. In fact "understanding" in Biblical times is NOT head-knowledge which we currently believe. You didn't understand anything back then, if it didn't transform your daily life. Today we have this idea of understanding, that I can understand it, but not do it. That we can somehow know GOD in our MINDS, but not in an EXPERIENTIAL way in our daily lives. Tongues isn't the only way to do this of course, but we have to get to the place that we actually EMBRACE God being God in our daily lives because sharing those testimonies is a big part of the gospel.

Psalm 41:7 Deep calls to deep at the roar of your waterfalls; all your breakers and your waves have gone over me.

C.

Can you give a concrete example.

People are able to provide knowledge and understanding with their own minds, hearts and spirit, and I am not saying this is a bad thing it is a good thing, God wants us to exhort and minister to each other, the Holy Spirit can move in these situations but it does not have to be in a supernatural language. It comes from our spirit that is united with God in fellowship.

Why would a different language even begin to be necessary and when in scripture did God ever use an unintelligible language to speak to us. Why Jesus never prayed like this, He is our model after all.

Why is regular language not enough....It is indeed always interesting!!

 

[fredoheaven]

I don't know about the -sy/-cy thing, garee. I can't find any modern versions of the bible where the two appear as nouns. Can you point me to some?

I just wrote about words having meanings attached to them without having seen this comment of yours. I was trying to work out the meaning of teaching you give to prophecy.

As for Strong, he is using -sy for the verb and -cy for the noun and gives both meanings, foretelling and forth-telling for each. Or am I missing something? You might have to spell this out for me, garee. I just can't see what you're talking about. Can someone else help us out maybe? Small brain, here. Thanks!

Here is my take in here:

The Bible is a common book for common people. They were not intended to a select few or of elite minds of the scholars. Scholarship is not an authority, though I am not saying, we don’t need scholars. They may be of help yet still are not the Final authority of faith and practice. It is the Bible that is the Final Authority. I cannot go to Strong’s definition per se since we already have the English Bible. Translating the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into English and going back from English to Hebrew or Greek and Aramaic may sometimes leads us to confusion. That is why I stick to the English as much as possible. As demonstrated earlier in my post, the English the sy/ cy thing can be distinguished and fairly understood using the pre-KJV English. For the case of ‘sy’ thing was only used to mean “foretell” in 1676. The earliest known existing record by Thomas Thomas was in 1587 as cited in his Dictionarium Latinae and Anglicanae which means “things foretold” > Not familiar with English grammar, I used the online Cambridge Dictionary that the word “foretold” is in the past tense and past participle which a form of a verb that is to show past action. Therefore, “prophesy” as a verb has something to do with that which was “already revealed” and “to prophesy” means to say about which was already revealed, now the Bible. It strict sense, “to prophesy” means to interpret God’s word and that is the encouragement of Apostle Paul to covet the best gift and such gift is still relevant today. But if “prophesy” meant foretelling, predicting or the latter used is no longer available for today.

Not for a Bible version issue still I’ll go for what the common people used in common English even the pre- kJV and until the existence of the KjV. If one considers the KJV as God’s word and understood its language then it is not a difficult thing interpreting the subject on hand.

God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

But you are trying to tell me, that Paul in his 1 letter, is saying without love we are nothing, love is, love is that, we need love, oh and by the way gifts are going to cease when Scripture is "perfect"... but back to my discussion about love, but I show you a better way pursue love and earnestly desire gifts...

Do you realize that you are saying all spiritual gifts have ceased because of 1 Scripture? That's such a huge theological decision to base on 1 Scripture especially one that has nothing to do with the context surrounding it. And is very vague and can be taken a lot of meanings... But on this ONE Scripture you are willing to say the following:

1. Gifts cease
2. People who function in gifts are deceived
3. And all that stuff Jesus said believers would do? Yeah that's not for us either.

But why? Oh because of this ONE Scripture. You think Paul spends all of 1 Co 12 and 1 Co 14 talking about 3 specific gifts... but he completely NIXES the entire thing in 1 Co 13:8??? Why even write 1 Co 14 then? And why even write "forbid not in tongues". Because according to you, he forbade tongues in 1 Co 13:8??? But then in 1 Co 14:1 he says DESIRE gifts! Paul obviously forgot what he wrote in 1 Co 13:8 according to these interpretations.

Have you thought this through?

With respect, but you are trying to conclude of me that which I don't attempt to do. I must put that in reverse, it not I but it's you because your post on # 105 as I cited is self refute.

Meantime, let me be clear that not all gifts ceased. People with gifts like "to prophesy" is still active even to this day (surprise?) but not what you think.

God bless

 

[Cee]

Prophesy still is for today. "But not what you think".

What do I think?
And what is it according to Scripture?

And nothing about my post was refuted. When discussing context we must look at the entire chapter. I will post the entire chapters of 1 Co 12 all the way to 1 Co 14. And we can look at each verse in context together. And then i will explain every verse with my interpretation and you can explain every verse with yours. I do not ignore a single verse in my interpretations.

With respect, but you are trying to conclude of me that which I don't attempt to do. I must put that in reverse, it not I but it's you because your post on # 105 as I cited is self refute.

Meantime, let me be clear that not all gifts ceased. People with gifts like "to prophesy" is still active even to this day (surprise?) but not what you think.

God bless

 

[Cee]

And I'll address the idea that "perfect" can not be love in 1 Co 13:8...

First let's see if the words "perfect" and "love" are every connected in Scripture:

1 John 4:16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

John is talking about God is love. And how WE are PERFECTED by Love. This is the PERFECT that is to come.

So yes "perfect" and "love" are tied together.

Let's see how this fits to 1 Co 13:8:

1 Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

So we see here that LOVE never ends.... But prophesies, tongues, and knowledge will. Has knowledge ended?

1 Co 13:9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

We know God in part. No mention of Scripture ANYWHERE in this entire chapter. And the verse before it says "love will never end". Yep, the perfect is love.

In the NEXT verse Paul talks about what the perfect and imperfect are... Notice how Paul focuses on US not on Scripture to explain this. He is talking about being perfected in love the same as John. Knowing God as He knows us.

1 Co 13:11 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Paul is talking about childish ways (this is doing things NOT out of love) we know this from his entire treatise on love in the beginning of 1 Co 13.

And now we find out what the perfect is:

1 Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Imperfect: Seeing in a dim mirror. Knowing in part.
Perfect: Knowing fully as we have been known.

Knowing what? Scripture? No. God.

Next verse:

1 Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Once again Paul brings it back to LOVE as the greatest. Note the word "So". That means everything he said before it was to make this statement: the greatest of these is love.

And Paul in the NEXT verse says this:

1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

So Paul has made a methodical treatment of love. And now he is going to compare tongues and prophesy with this new revelation. Pursue LOVE because it's the greatest AND desire the spiritual gifts. But especially that you would prophesy.

And here the reader is thinking but WHY Prophesy especially, Paul?

And Paul explains why prophesy in the NEXT verses:

1 Co 14:2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Paul is saying everything else will pass away. If we don't have love, we have nothing. And with this revelation he is now saying, TONGUES is not the goal. Love is. And love builds others up. And THAT looks like prophesy.

I truly desire and hope we can get beyond this discussion and move into prophesy because that's the spiritual gifting we are to earnestly desire from God. Tongues are amazing, but the church really needs to understand prophesy too. The church is to be BUILT up by the Spirit in each of us as well as the Spirit in ourselves!!! Prophesy takes us into knowing Him as He knows us. Growing in maturity. Having our spiritual senses sharpened. Seeing each other not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. In Christ.

If you have eyes to see it, you'll notice this same thought in Ephesians 4:

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[SUP]c[/SUP] and teachers,[SUP]d[/SUP] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[SUP]e[/SUP] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

The 5 fold is for equipping the saints to grow up, into the fullness and maturity of Christ, and as we grow up in HIM, we are built up in love.

I really pray one of you teachers get this, so you can share it in a way that I'm not. The Body needs you to get this!!! This forum is filled with teachers, and teachers right now are growing in understanding of prophesy, so i am praying the church will be built up the way it really can be! Please get this. Just pray about it, seek God about it, let Holy Spirit show you it. Please know my heart. I am not trying to just argue because it's fun. Not at all. Every time I post in here something confrontational, I go and I pray about it. I feel Holy Spirit on specific people in here so I am focus on them not because I see the Spirit of God moving in their lives! I am hoping that by communicating my heart that you will pray about this with God. I care about you all and please don't take anything I've written wrong. I am not perfect in my communication, but I am trying to be as clear and direct as possible for equipping sake not for confrontational sake.

Bless you and I pray for each of you to know Him in a greater way, just as I am seeking to know Him more every day as well.

 

[Cee]

Because I see the Spirit moving in people's lives, not because I don't see Him moving, I wish I could edit faster.

And I'll address the idea that "perfect" can not be love in 1 Co 13:8...

First let's see if the words "perfect" and "love" are every connected in Scripture:

1 John 4:16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

John is talking about God is love. And how WE are PERFECTED by Love. This is the PERFECT that is to come.

So yes "perfect" and "love" are tied together.

Let's see how this fits to 1 Co 13:8:

1 Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

So we see here that LOVE never ends.... But prophesies, tongues, and knowledge will. Has knowledge ended?

1 Co 13:9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

We know God in part. No mention of Scripture ANYWHERE in this entire chapter. And the verse before it says "love will never end". Yep, the perfect is love.

In the NEXT verse Paul talks about what the perfect and imperfect are... Notice how Paul focuses on US not on Scripture to explain this. He is talking about being perfected in love the same as John. Knowing God as He knows us.

1 Co 13:11 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Paul is talking about childish ways (this is doing things NOT out of love) we know this from his entire treatise on love in the beginning of 1 Co 13.

And now we find out what the perfect is:

1 Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Imperfect: Seeing in a dim mirror. Knowing in part.
Perfect: Knowing fully as we have been known.

Knowing what? Scripture? No. God.

Next verse:

1 Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Once again Paul brings it back to LOVE as the greatest. Note the word "So". That means everything he said before it was to make this statement: the greatest of these is love.

And Paul in the NEXT verse says this:

1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

So Paul has made a methodical treatment of love. And now he is going to compare tongues and prophesy with this new revelation. Pursue LOVE because it's the greatest AND desire the spiritual gifts. But especially that you would prophesy.

And here the reader is thinking but WHY Prophesy especially, Paul?

And Paul explains why prophesy in the NEXT verses:

1 Co 14:2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Paul is saying everything else will pass away. If we don't have love, we have nothing. And with this revelation he is now saying, TONGUES is not the goal. Love is. And love builds others up. And THAT looks like prophesy.

I truly desire and hope we can get beyond this discussion and move into prophesy because that's the spiritual gifting we are to earnestly desire from God. Tongues are amazing, but the church really needs to understand prophesy too. The church is to be BUILT up by the Spirit in each of us as well as the Spirit in ourselves!!! Prophesy takes us into knowing Him as He knows us. Growing in maturity. Having our spiritual senses sharpened. Seeing each other not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. In Christ.

If you have eyes to see it, you'll notice this same thought in Ephesians 4:

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[SUP]c[/SUP] and teachers,[SUP]d[/SUP] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[SUP]e[/SUP] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

The 5 fold is for equipping the saints to grow up, into the fullness and maturity of Christ, and as we grow up in HIM, we are built up in love.

I really pray one of you teachers get this, so you can share it in a way that I'm not. The Body needs you to get this!!! This forum is filled with teachers, and teachers right now are growing in understanding of prophesy, so i am praying the church will be built up the way it really can be! Please get this. Just pray about it, seek God about it, let Holy Spirit show you it. Please know my heart. I am not trying to just argue because it's fun. Not at all. Every time I post in here something confrontational, I go and I pray about it. I feel Holy Spirit on specific people in here so I am focus on them not because I see the Spirit of God moving in their lives! I am hoping that by communicating my heart that you will pray about this with God. I care about you all and please don't take anything I've written wrong. I am not perfect in my communication, but I am trying to be as clear and direct as possible for equipping sake not for confrontational sake.

Bless you and I pray for each of you to know Him in a greater way, just as I am seeking to know Him more every day as well.