Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[fredoheaven]

Prophesy still is for today. "But not what you think".

What do I think?
And what is it according to Scripture?

And nothing about my post was refuted. When discussing context we must look at the entire chapter. I will post the entire chapters of 1 Co 12 all the way to 1 Co 14. And we can look at each verse in context together. And then i will explain every verse with my interpretation and you can explain every verse with yours. I do not ignore a single verse in my interpretations.

This sounds cocky but it's your right to give your opinion. But I will not allow you to give you way to what you like.
Just post on! but take a patience of me and I'll be on further studying your opinion if you mind...

Thank you

 

[kohelet]

Here is my take in here:

The Bible is a common book for common people. They were not intended to a select few or of elite minds of the scholars. Scholarship is not an authority, though I am not saying, we don’t need scholars. They may be of help yet still are not the Final authority of faith and practice. It is the Bible that is the Final Authority. I cannot go to Strong’s definition per se since we already have the English Bible. Translating the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into English and going back from English to Hebrew or Greek and Aramaic may sometimes leads us to confusion. That is why I stick to the English as much as possible. As demonstrated earlier in my post, the English the sy/ cy thing can be distinguished and fairly understood using the pre-KJV English. For the case of ‘sy’ thing was only used to mean “foretell” in 1676. The earliest known existing record by Thomas Thomas was in 1587 as cited in his Dictionarium Latinae and Anglicanae which means “things foretold” > Not familiar with English grammar, I used the online Cambridge Dictionary that the word “foretold” is in the past tense and past participle which a form of a verb that is to show past action. Therefore, “prophesy” as a verb has something to do with that which was “already revealed” and “to prophesy” means to say about which was already revealed, now the Bible. It strict sense, “to prophesy” means to interpret God’s word and that is the encouragement of Apostle Paul to covet the best gift and such gift is still relevant today. But if “prophesy” meant foretelling, predicting or the latter used is no longer available for today.

Not for a Bible version issue still I’ll go for what the common people used in common English even the pre- kJV and until the existence of the KjV. If one considers the KJV as God’s word and understood its language then it is not a difficult thing interpreting the subject on hand.

God bless

Hi Fred,

Thanks for helping out. Let's see if I understand you correctly. You say "the English the sy/cy thing can be distinguished and fairly understood using the pre-KJV English." Well, I compared one verse, 1 Corinthians 14:1, where the verb is used.

Wycliffe (1395) has "Sue ye charite, loue ye spiritual thingis, but more that ye prophecien," whereas Tyndale's translation (1536) is "Labour for love and covet spretuall giftes: and most chefly forto prophesye."

So both spellings (as far as the 's' and 'c' are concerned, at least) of the same verb in the same verse in pre-KJV English. I can't understand what you're telling me at all, Fred, fairly or otherwise.

Call me old-fashioned, but I think we need evidence from the original Greek, the language Paul wrote in, for your argument to hold. Either that, or something more conclusive (any language will do) that what Paul was encouraging was the teaching kind of prophecy rather than any other kind. We haven't really got that yet, have we?

 

[Grace777x70]

Gleaning from the site above: Let me just post this quotes and below is my comment:

From the site:

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

My Comment:

This quote may have been a third hand or fourth hand evidence or a copy of copies from outside sources and still needs further verification. Now taking Eusebius for example, in that he even ever didn't mentioned of the “gibberish tongues” but the Gospel was heard with their whole mind.

From the site:

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

My Comment:

Accordingly, this is the declaration of the mysteries of God using all kinds of languages. Not a bit of “babble sound”.


God bless

Very clearly this shows that throughout the early history there were Christians speaking in tongues.

I know the things of the Spirit are hard to understand with our natural minds. What amazes me is the lengths people will go to do away with the supernatural aspect of the Spirit of God in a believer.

You call it "babble"...do you know every language that was ever on this earth? Do you know anything about angelic languages? 1 Cor. 13:1

Hey - if you don't want to speak to your Father with your spirit - you don't have to.

But to say that speaking in tongues is not for today - you are saying it's from the devil because where else would it come from?

This is equivalent of an atheist coming to me and telling me Jesus isn't real. It's just plain ignorance as I know that Jesus is real and I also know that speaking in tongues is from the Spirit of God. Over 600 million people are doing it by the Holy Spirit within them and they are the fastest growing Christian group in the world.

Read the book by Jackie Pullinger called "Chasing the Dragon". She is a missionary to Hong Kong to the drug addicts there. She was there for a few years but nothing happened. She then got filled with the Holy Spirit and the Lord told her to walk around the ghetto area and pray in tongues - speak mysteries to God - within a year her ministry broke out with addicts getting saved and "healed".

To neglect speaking in tongues is not wise in any respect of the word no matter how much we reject what scripture says contrary to what "we have been taught". Some of us will never let the scriptures get in the way of what we believe.

 

[garee]

I don't know about the -sy/-cy thing, garee. I can't find any modern versions of the bible where the two appear as nouns. Can you point me to some?

I just wrote about words having meanings attached to them without having seen this comment of yours. I was trying to work out the meaning of teaching you give to prophecy.

As for Strong, he is using -sy for the verb and -cy for the noun and gives both meanings, foretelling and forth-telling for each. Or am I missing something? You might have to spell this out for me, garee. I just can't see what you're talking about. Can someone else help us out maybe? Small brain, here. Thanks!

I can try and explain it the way I understand.

The word prophecy is a noun. (The last syllable of prophecy is pronounced......... sea.)
The word prophesy is a verb. (The last syllable of prophesy is pronounced.......sigh.)

Again one is a noun as a person, place or a thing.

Scripture, prophecy the noun is that which gives us understanding to what the thing is. Prophecy is the word of God. It is a living word that cannot return void of the purpose by which God sends it. It judges between the spirit and the soul as the intent of every heart that comes under its hearing.

A prophet, a noun is the person that God moves and sends. A prophet is a person God sends with another authority other than oneself. He is an apostle (verb) as one moved by the will of another.. All of those God sends to carry out the great commission, are apostles.( verbs) we attribute nothing they are sent with to them.

What we are to with it, prophecy, as the noun, is “prophesy the verb, the action, we bring it forth as God moves us to do so.

The word prophecy (the noun) is used 21 times in the whole Bible to indicate scripture.

We have also a more sure word “of prophecy”; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.2Peter 1:19

There above we learn prophecy, the word of God as noun is not after the prophet/apostle.

The word prophesy ( the verb )is used differently 78 times.

After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy (this is not to create the word of God but proclaim it as a verb),And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy (this is not to create the word of God but proclaim it as a verb),with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 1Sa 10:5

As for Strong, he is using -sy for the verb and -cy for the noun and gives both meanings, foretelling and forth-telling for each.

A distinction between the things of God and those of men must be defined or an improper understanding of words like apostle can in the end of the mater produce a false apostle. as one used as a succession called apostolic succession .

Some changed the word apostle a verb into a noun as the authority of a person and in doing so usurp the authority of God’s prophecy, and make it into a private interpretation. And in doing so usurp the authority of God’s word by assuming its authority could be after o r generated, created by sinful men inspired from earth..

And prophecy is not time sensitive.it does much more that foretell . It gives us God’s witness to whether something is past present or future as in forth telling. One third of Human history had passed by before God moved Moses given to Moses , inspired from heaven, God‘s interpretation written down for our understanding. It through the hearing of Christ’s faith infallibly gives us an accurate account of creation as someone who was there working out His faith.; “ let it be” and there was substance.

Can someone else help us out maybe? Small brain, here. Thanks!

I am sure there is someone else my grammar interest are quite new to this old man.

 

[garee]

So Paul is saying, I thank my God that i breathe more than you all, I wish that you all would breathe? Lol. But not when you're around people, no don't breathe around them. Prophesy to those people. Haha.

Prophecy is God’s breathed, not Paul breathed. The hearing of faith, tongues was two fold........... as Paul spoke in his language the other heard it in therefore their own and vise versa. When the other person spoke their language Paul heard it in his own . Tongues is two ways of one communing... three to include God the interpreter. In that way as God's witness a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

We walk by faith the unseen . Not by sight according to experiences. Experiencing walking by sight caused the fall in the garden , There is no outward gift we can experience as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit.

Signs as lying sign and wonders are used today by the devil..... seeing God is not longer bringing any new revelation in any manner to include tongues which today comes from another kind of anti authority. The father of lies.

This does not mean a person does not have the Holy Spirit but more a person would seem to be confused on what what is faith as that in which we must mix in what we do hear? Where and who does it come from? Can we have it in respect to our own selves through an experience... or in respect other men experiences ?

Paul is clearly saying tongues is not understood by ANYONE, except God. That's why you don't speak in tongues around other people, but prophesy around them. Paul even goes so far as to say HIS MIND doesn't understand.
His mind does not understand the language of other without an interpreter.

AND in Acts 2, the people heard them speaking in tongues TO God. The disciples weren't speaking to the people.

What was the interpretation of what they were thinking? Tongues is the gift of hearing called the hearing of faith (Christ's) not pronouncing words that the speaker has no understanding of..

 

[Cee]

Tongues is one fold. It is from you to God. Interepretation of tongues is when God lets people listen in.

That's why Paul explains both.

Tongues he says no one understands but God
But around people, there should be interpreters.

As far as this sign gift stuff. God still desires none to perish. Jesus didn't die to give us a bigger book.

Jesus said those who believe in Him (that's us) will speak with new tongues. Paul said he desired all to speak in tongues, but especially to prophesy. There is no record in Scripture of "sign gifts" ceasing. And there is no record in Scripture of some gifts being needed and other gifts being a "temporary sign".

The ONE Scripture people use to support this idea, just doesn't fit the context. And even so, we should not create an entire theology out of ONE Scripture. We need 2-3 witnesses this is just proper Bible interpretation.

Prophecy is God’s breathed, not Paul breathed. The hearing of faith, tongues was two fold........... as Paul spoke in his language the other heard it in therefore their own and vise versa. When the other person spoke their language Paul heard it in his own . Tongues is two ways of one communing... three to include God the interpreter. In that way as God's witness a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

We walk by faith the unseen . Not by sight according to experiences. Experiencing walking by sight caused the fall in the garden , There is no outward gift we can experience as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit.

Signs as lying sign and wonders are used today by the devil..... seeing God is not longer bringing any new revelation in any manner to include tongues which today comes from another kind of anti authority. The father of lies.

This does not mean a person does not have the Holy Spirit but more a person would seem to be confused on what what is faith as that in which we must mix in what we do hear? Where and who does it come from? Can we have it in respect to our own selves through an experience... or in respect other men experiences ?



What was the interpretation of what they were thinking? Tongues is the gift of hearing called the hearing of faith (Christ's) not pronouncing words that the speaker has no understanding of..

 

[jaybird88]

Tongues is one fold. It is from you to God. Interepretation of tongues is when God lets people listen in.

That's why Paul explains both.

Tongues he says no one understands but God
But around people, there should be interpreters.

As far as this sign gift stuff. God still desires none to perish. Jesus didn't die to give us a bigger book.

Jesus said those who believe in Him (that's us) will speak with new tongues. Paul said he desired all to speak in tongues, but especially to prophesy. There is no record in Scripture of "sign gifts" ceasing. And there is no record in Scripture of some gifts being needed and other gifts being a "temporary sign".

The ONE Scripture people use to support this idea, just doesn't fit the context. And even so, we should not create an entire theology out of ONE Scripture. We need 2-3 witnesses this is just proper Bible interpretation.

when someone prays for their children in their own language, and next day prays for their children in the angel / prayer language, whats the difference? how do the children receive a better prayer with the angel language and where can i find a teaching on this?

 

[Cee]

when someone prays for their children in their own language, and next day prays for their children in the angel / prayer language, whats the difference? how do the children receive a better prayer with the angel language and where can i find a teaching on this?

Tongues is praying to God.
It's not about the children receiving the prayer.
It's the Spirit praying through you.

One of my family members had never heard tongues before, and he asked me to do it, because he wanted to hear it. So I sought God about it and felt it was okay. So I did. And his eyes got super big. And he said I know what you're saying. And then he proceeded to tell me what I was praying, it was very cool to me and him.

He just started a church recently. And it was just a powerful moment together. The presence of God filled the room and me and his family were all worshipping together. And then I shared what I felt the Lord saying to a few of them. And it was incredible as people started to cry under His presence and knowing He is real.

This is an example of tongues to God. Interpretation for others. And prophesy that reveals God to people and builds them up.

Hope this helps.

Read 1 Co 13-14 for more understanding or you can look at some of the posts I've done going through these 2 chapters.

 

[jaybird88]

Tongues is praying to God.
It's not about the children receiving the prayer.
It's the Spirit praying through you.

One of my family members had never heard tongues before, and he asked me to do it, because he wanted to hear it. So I sought God about it and felt it was okay. So I did. And his eyes got super big. And he said I know what you're saying. And then he proceeded to tell me what I was praying, it was very cool to me and him.

He just started a church recently. And it was just a powerful moment together. The presence of God filled the room and me and his family were all worshipping together. And then I shared what I felt the Lord saying to a few of them. And it was incredible as people started to cry under His presence and knowing He is real.

This is an example of tongues to God. Interpretation for others. And prophesy that reveals God to people and builds them up.

Hope this helps.

Read 1 Co 13-14 for more understanding or you can look at some of the posts I've done going through these 2 chapters.

umm ok, let me ask a different way. a man is starving, no food in 3 days, he prays, in his own language and ask for food. next night same thing same question but he prays in the angel / prayer language.
how is the angel / prayer language prayer better than the first prayer?

there has to be a benefit or there would be no point. i hear people say over and over they are a huge benefit yet no one knows why.

 

[Cee]

You're praying for food, but maybe God wants to bring it to pass in a different way.

Praying in tongues is the Spirit of God praying through you.

When I don't know what to pray or how to pray, I pray in tongues.
When I need to be built up in the faith, I pray in tongues.

umm ok, let me ask a different way. a man is starving, no food in 3 days, he prays, in his own language and ask for food. next night same thing same question but he prays in the angel / prayer language.
how is the angel / prayer language prayer better than the first prayer?

there has to be a benefit or there would be no point. i hear people say over and over they are a huge benefit yet no one knows why.

 

[notuptome]

Tongues is praying to God.
It's not about the children receiving the prayer.
It's the Spirit praying through you.

One of my family members had never heard tongues before, and he asked me to do it, because he wanted to hear it. So I sought God about it and felt it was okay. So I did. And his eyes got super big. And he said I know what you're saying. And then he proceeded to tell me what I was praying, it was very cool to me and him.

He just started a church recently. And it was just a powerful moment together. The presence of God filled the room and me and his family were all worshipping together. And then I shared what I felt the Lord saying to a few of them. And it was incredible as people started to cry under His presence and knowing He is real.

This is an example of tongues to God. Interpretation for others. And prophesy that reveals God to people and builds them up.

Hope this helps.

Read 1 Co 13-14 for more understanding or you can look at some of the posts I've done going through these 2 chapters.

You have an active imagination at the expense of biblical accuracy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cee]

You have an active imagination at the expense of biblical accuracy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I tell you a story about my family being touched by Christ and you say this to me.

No praise God or that's incredible. Interesting fruit you're bearing Roger.

 

[jaybird88]

You're praying for food, but maybe God wants to bring it to pass in a different way.

Praying in tongues is the Spirit of God praying through you.

When I don't know what to pray or how to pray, I pray in tongues.
When I need to be built up in the faith, I pray in tongues.

im not going to tell you your wrong, if it helps you be a better Christian so be it. but the tongues, as an angel language, is very mind boggling.
Jesus didnt do it or teach it. no examples of anyone doing it until you get to pauls teaching. they dont seem to have a benefit that normal praying wouldnt already have.
not trying to troll you but hopefully help u see where i am coming from.

 

[notuptome]

I tell you a story about my family being touched by Christ and you say this to me.

No praise God or that's incredible. Interesting fruit you're bearing Roger.

Fails entirely to address the issue. There is no biblical support for your contention. You actively imagine it but that does not make it biblically true and correct.

You know that God does not commission the Holy Spirit to act outside of the word of God.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stephen63]

Sooo many unsubstantiated claims as to when tongues ceased. Unproven.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part; [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (by God)
"The perfect" is proven by the context of "face to face" in v12.
C'mon, people! FACE TO FACE IN COMPLETENESS CAN ONLY BE FACE TO FACE WITH JESUS! We are complete when we are "changed" from mortality to immortality!

WE AREN'T CHANGED TO COMPLETENESS BY THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE! WHAT A JOKE! The canon has been completed for HOW LONG, & look at how perfect we are!

Cessationism is a theory that gets its "evidence" from Church history..... Catholic church history, to be exact. All cessationism is an explaining away of the scriptures of the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church & unfulfilled prophecies.

Psalm 119:89 (NASB)
[SUP]89 [/SUP]Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.

Psalm 119:89 (NLT)
[SUP]89 [/SUP]Your eternal word, O LORD, stands firm in heaven.

It CANNOT be changed by man, no matter how many centuries he doesn't understand it or obey it.

 

[Cee]

Fails entirely to address the issue. There is no biblical support for your contention. You actively imagine it but that does not make it biblically true and correct.

You know that God does not commission the Holy Spirit to act outside of the word of God.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

Here's a little feedback for you Roger.

From what I've seen your comments to me are usually the same.

1. Ignore the Biblical support I show
2. State that I have no Biblical support
3. Conclude from this statement that I am wrong
4. Insult me in someway from this
5. Post a Scripture that has nothing to do with the topic to prove your point

This is called "poisoning the well" if you can discredit me, you discredit the Scripture you don't agree with. But the problem is that you don't actually address Scripture that disproves your statements. I do. I always address Scripture that seems to be contrary to my viewpoints because I'm not here to prove I'm right. I'm actually here to grow together. Until you're willing to come to terms that what you believe could be wrong, you have no room for growth. This is why out of the mouth of babes wisdom is found. We must always be willing to be wrong in order to fully embrace the truth. The Pharisees were so confident in their "rightness" that they missed "righteousness".

What's the point if we are here because we think we know it all? I try to discover something every day from the Spirit of God in each of you. I don't have it all figured out not by a long shot. So I surround myself with a multitude of counselors and I pray about what I'm shown. And the end of the day, I choose what I believe is true or not. But I want to stack as many counselors in my corner as possible and seek Holy Spirit about what He is saying through all. It's served me well in my life.

I've learned a few things in your posts Roger so feel free to keep commenting, but please keep it to the Scripture and not to these silly statements like "I have a great imagination, but no Biblical accuracy" because that's just dishonest. And I don't think you're a dishonest person. So I expect more from you.

 

[fredoheaven]

Why it could not be love is the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians. God is love and that’s true, but not love is God.
Here are some scriptural records or witnesses to prove it isn’t.

1. 1 Kings 11:1 – King Solomon, the wisest man during his day would have argued with your understanding “for he ‘loved’ many strange women” .Is love perfect? NO! This was according to King Solomon.

2. Matthew 24:12 – Scripture says “the loved of many shall wax cold”. Is love perfect? No, according to Matthew.

3. 1 Timothy 6:10 – According to Apostle Paul ”the love of money is the root of all evil” Is love perfect? Not again!

4. 1 John 4:8 – “Perfect love casteth out fear” There is when love is not perfect and when someone does fear then love is not perfect.

There is love that which not is perfect that’s all true to the records. Even the game of tennis will tell us that “love” means a score of ZERO.

God bless!

 

[fredoheaven]

The scriptures foretold that “with other tongues and other lips will I speak ( 1Corinthians 14:21). God said “ I have not spoken in secret” “In the volume of books” in other tongues (Isah. 45:19; Hebrews 10:7). Thus this speaks of scriptures written in other tongues like English.

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

The verse is a hypothetical one. Did Paul known all the languages of men? No sir! And what about the language of angels? Even Paul goes on to say “the language he know not” 2 Cor. 12: 2 and 4)

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[fredoheaven]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for helping out. Let's see if I understand you correctly. You say "the English the sy/cy thing can be distinguished and fairly understood using the pre-KJV English." Well, I compared one verse, 1 Corinthians 14:1, where the verb is used.

Wycliffe (1395) has "Sue ye charite, loue ye spiritual thingis, but more that ye prophecien," whereas Tyndale's translation (1536) is "Labour for love and covet spretuall giftes: and most chefly forto prophesye."

So both spellings (as far as the 's' and 'c' are concerned, at least) of the same verb in the same verse in pre-KJV English. I can't understand what you're telling me at all, Fred, fairly or otherwise.

Call me old-fashioned, but I think we need evidence from the original Greek, the language Paul wrote in, for your argument to hold. Either that, or something more conclusive (any language will do) that what Paul was encouraging was the teaching kind of prophecy rather than any other kind. We haven't really got that yet, have we?

Hi sir!

Yes and I loved the old fashioned way. Now this is to realize that the old English of Wycliffe was not a direct English translation from the Hebrew and Greek as we wanted to have evidence from the “original Greek…” . The Latin based Wycliffe was purified by Tyndale (Early Modern English)using directly from the Hebrew and Greek, which the evidence shows and correspond to a purified Modern English of KJV.

Thank you.