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I don't want you to be offended by this scripture either. I only post it for edification. My favorite parable is the sower and the seed. I suppose that is because I'm a farm boy. My grandkids call me "dirt man." LOL
Matthew 13:10-14
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
I think this parable is clear that the seed (being Christ Jesus) must die in the good ground (being the heart) before it can grow and mature and bear fruit after its own kind. That correlates with being conformed into the image of Christ. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." John 12:24
[SUP]
Continuing with Matthew 13:15-16
15 [/SUP]For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Matthew 13:10-14
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
I think this parable is clear that the seed (being Christ Jesus) must die in the good ground (being the heart) before it can grow and mature and bear fruit after its own kind. That correlates with being conformed into the image of Christ. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." John 12:24
[SUP]
Continuing with Matthew 13:15-16
15 [/SUP]For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
A
HI atwhatcost
I thought you would find my post more worthy
Look at post 18 again.
I thought you would find my post more worthy
Look at post 18 again.
This is what you wrote in Post 11 --
John 6:63
king James version(kjv)
63.)It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they arespirit, and they are life.
And that's what I didn't get.
Lynn,
In Leviticus, the notion of ceremonial uncleanness had nothing to do with sin.
Because God chose to depict blood as the agent whereby atonement and redemption were applied to a believers life (looking forward to Jesus' blood shed on the cross and during His scourgings); any blood not fitting that depiction was unwelcome in the Temple. Contact with blood or with death made a person ceremonially unfit to participate in Temple worship
Lev 17:11
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
KJV
In Leviticus, the notion of ceremonial uncleanness had nothing to do with sin.
Because God chose to depict blood as the agent whereby atonement and redemption were applied to a believers life (looking forward to Jesus' blood shed on the cross and during His scourgings); any blood not fitting that depiction was unwelcome in the Temple. Contact with blood or with death made a person ceremonially unfit to participate in Temple worship
Lev 17:11
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
KJV
A
Okay, off topic, but this is what I don't get about that parable still. Aren't the seeds people born into Christ, thus Christ followers -- aka Christians? Well, when I sow scallion seeds, scallions come up and I get to eat scallions when they're ready. I can eat them when they're babies too, but barely worth eating -- kind of small and useless. But, say I sowed some on the rocky soil. Okay, well, I'm a container gardener, so there is no rocky soil. but there is concrete below the table I grow the scallions on, and, because I water them regularly, dirt over the concrete. So let's say Somebody tapped my elbow while sowing, so the seeds went flying and landed on the ground. When they start growing, they really are scallions. Not like they suddenly turned into carrots, just because the ground is different. They really are scallions, but they can't grow very big, so they're utterly useless. Chances are good, I'll probably never notice them down there and accidentally kick them to death while watering my scallions. So, they're more like weeds, than scallions, but they'll die.
Kind of sounds heartless and not very accurate, if we're comparing them to seeded by Christ but then get kicked to the side or aren't scallions. But if he planted them, why aren't they his? Was he incapable of making his own crop? God incapable? That just doesn't make sense to me.
Kind of sounds heartless and not very accurate, if we're comparing them to seeded by Christ but then get kicked to the side or aren't scallions. But if he planted them, why aren't they his? Was he incapable of making his own crop? God incapable? That just doesn't make sense to me.
For me it shows us that even in the going about living of life we cannot avoid the breaking of the Law - by our very nature - even our physical nature - we become, at times, unclean before God. I wrote this on a mom's forum years ago regarding the menstruation issue, where some moms were actually attempting to keep the law of niddah (separation during menstruation), along with other elements of Torah-keeping:
Sooo thankful that the Law was given to show us our need for Christ and that we can rest in Him \o/!
For those who are convinced that Torah-observance is how God desires us to please Him . . . no. The Law requires 100% obedience 100% of the time, not the watered-down version that some have taken to preaching here.
You invite God's wrath, not His pleasure if you attempt to keep that which, if you try to follow God's Law as He gave it, will absolutely bury you. (Speaking to the broader audience here, not to the OP.)
The Law was given to show us that we're dead and need the Life that only Christ can give to us. Then we walk in Him; fix our eyes on Him; bear His Fruit.
And that IS pleasing to the Father \o/.
-JGIG
OK, ladies. I’ve been reading posts till my eyeballs bled about the Law and Galatians and historical context etc., etc., etc. May I offer this rhetorical question?
Was not ONE of the purposes of the Law to show us that we COULD NOT fulfill it, thus making us acutely aware of our NEED for the SAVIOUR?! I will concede that the Law has God-given boundaries and wisdom, which culturally I do not have the benefit of wholly understanding. When I read about the “clean” and “unclean” issues surrounding our monthly cycles it serves to prove to me that by our very PHYSICAL nature we are bound by the Fall and that we need the Saviour whom God in His infinite Love and Grace has provided for us, ALL PRAISE AND THANKS TO A LOVING HEAVENLY FATHER!
(For those of you who think way too much, I don’t mean to imply that our cycles are a result of the Fall . . . I really don’t have any idea if cycles even existed pre-fall or not . . . does it really matter . . . just going by what God says about being “clean” and “unclean”. Our cycles do not fall into a category of choosing to sin or not . . . it’s part of our physical existence, hence my above conclusion.)
. . .
Galatians 3:21-25 “Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to LEAD US TO CHRIST [caps mine] that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”
(from How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement)
Was not ONE of the purposes of the Law to show us that we COULD NOT fulfill it, thus making us acutely aware of our NEED for the SAVIOUR?! I will concede that the Law has God-given boundaries and wisdom, which culturally I do not have the benefit of wholly understanding. When I read about the “clean” and “unclean” issues surrounding our monthly cycles it serves to prove to me that by our very PHYSICAL nature we are bound by the Fall and that we need the Saviour whom God in His infinite Love and Grace has provided for us, ALL PRAISE AND THANKS TO A LOVING HEAVENLY FATHER!
(For those of you who think way too much, I don’t mean to imply that our cycles are a result of the Fall . . . I really don’t have any idea if cycles even existed pre-fall or not . . . does it really matter . . . just going by what God says about being “clean” and “unclean”. Our cycles do not fall into a category of choosing to sin or not . . . it’s part of our physical existence, hence my above conclusion.)
. . .
Galatians 3:21-25 “Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to LEAD US TO CHRIST [caps mine] that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”
(from How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement)
Sooo thankful that the Law was given to show us our need for Christ and that we can rest in Him \o/!
For those who are convinced that Torah-observance is how God desires us to please Him . . . no. The Law requires 100% obedience 100% of the time, not the watered-down version that some have taken to preaching here.
You invite God's wrath, not His pleasure if you attempt to keep that which, if you try to follow God's Law as He gave it, will absolutely bury you. (Speaking to the broader audience here, not to the OP.)
The Law was given to show us that we're dead and need the Life that only Christ can give to us. Then we walk in Him; fix our eyes on Him; bear His Fruit.
And that IS pleasing to the Father \o/.
-JGIG
And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days. (Numbers 19:16)
Jesus had a whole bunch of people thronging him once and he only noticed when one sick woman touched him and was healed. This was showing that she touched Jesus in the spirit by faith, not physically in a way that mattered. Similarly, the law in Numbers 19:16 is pointing to the fact that we must not spiritually agree with or connect up spiritually with a spiritually dead person or groups of spiritually dead persons. If a person receives or connects spiritually with an unsaved person's spirit so that they are also of the same unsaved spirit, then they are 'unclean' (a Bible word meaning unsaved). Just a bit more of Bible parable stuff, in which the physical law pictures a spiritual reality, just as two other persons have pointed out already.
Jesus had a whole bunch of people thronging him once and he only noticed when one sick woman touched him and was healed. This was showing that she touched Jesus in the spirit by faith, not physically in a way that mattered. Similarly, the law in Numbers 19:16 is pointing to the fact that we must not spiritually agree with or connect up spiritually with a spiritually dead person or groups of spiritually dead persons. If a person receives or connects spiritually with an unsaved person's spirit so that they are also of the same unsaved spirit, then they are 'unclean' (a Bible word meaning unsaved). Just a bit more of Bible parable stuff, in which the physical law pictures a spiritual reality, just as two other persons have pointed out already.
A
Okay, so I'm both slow- and thick- headed, but finally got what you and ParrotWoman mean after studying this more. John Gill says there's two kinds of sins -- moral sin and ceremonial sin. In all three cases (dead body, menstruation, and having a baby), it's the ceremonial sin that's being covered.
So that's what ParrotWoman was trying to tell me about some of the law is no longer something to worry about, and that's what you were talking about with the atoning blood. Jesus gave the atoning blood, so we know longer stand on ceremonial... right?
(Pretty sure I finally got this. On that Understand Scale, I think I went from a 0 to an 8, so just like to raise it to a 9 or 10 to get as firm as I'll make it in this life. lol)
So that's what ParrotWoman was trying to tell me about some of the law is no longer something to worry about, and that's what you were talking about with the atoning blood. Jesus gave the atoning blood, so we know longer stand on ceremonial... right?
(Pretty sure I finally got this. On that Understand Scale, I think I went from a 0 to an 8, so just like to raise it to a 9 or 10 to get as firm as I'll make it in this life. lol)
A
When I was a new believer, my idea of changing was to do all the outward stuff. Treat Mom better, stop fighting my brothers all the time, don't cheat on tests, don't steal what's ever lying around that I wanted. That was me "following that first commandment." I just didn't know any better yet, but I was trying, so that was something.
Then I read what Jesus said about adultery and murder. Whoa! Even thinking about it is sin? Whoa! I realized God had to get in on my actions, because there was no way I'd ever stop thinking my brother is a fool. He convicted me of a deeper layer of sinfulness. So, we've been working on that ever since.
And then I hit upon always needing to love God fully and others. Double whoa! (Whoa whoa! lol) That's one I still chaff over, because I think I should be loving me. I'm very good at loving me, so that's an even deeper level of sin.
And in that, somewhere, he convicted me that I wasn't "discerning" quite as much as I was gossiping! Triple whoa! An even deeper level of sin.
That pointed me to something. He's been working on peeling away my sin all along and I'm busy trying to cover it up. I feel like I'm an onion of sin. I have layer upon layer upon layer. He's busy peeling all the layers until he can change me throughout. Matter of fact, I think he's trying to get me to go from onion to pomegranate, with each of those juicy seeds representing something good of him in me. He's got to get rid of my peels and replace them with him.
It hurts. It's frustrating, because I keep thinking "I'm doing what you want, what else is there?" while he keeps showing me another layer of sin, ripping it out, and replacing it with pomegrantey goodness. Painful. AND, I don't even know how many more layers have to be ripped out and replaced. I know I'm an onion, but how big is this onion that he's changing? Every single time I think, "Oh, I get that. Okay, let's work on this together," I keep thinking it can't be that much further to go. I'm looking for "how much further to go?" "Are we there yet, Daddy?"
I don't remember where I read or heard it, but I really do believe God doesn't let us see exactly how sinful we are, or we'd curl up in a ball and be catatonic. And yet, he keeps showing me new layers, so, yeah, I really do think I need to check how many layers are left. God's grace? Of course, but hard to grace without giving the one being graced some idea how big that grace is.
I'm not going for legalism. I'm not going with the law is dead. I'm going with, "Are we even half way there yet, Daddy?" He'll get me there. No doubt. I'm just trying to see what the path looks like to know if I'm really moving forward or simply thinking I've done enough already without noticing. I've been a believer long enough to have done both.
Then I read what Jesus said about adultery and murder. Whoa! Even thinking about it is sin? Whoa! I realized God had to get in on my actions, because there was no way I'd ever stop thinking my brother is a fool. He convicted me of a deeper layer of sinfulness. So, we've been working on that ever since.
And then I hit upon always needing to love God fully and others. Double whoa! (Whoa whoa! lol) That's one I still chaff over, because I think I should be loving me. I'm very good at loving me, so that's an even deeper level of sin.
And in that, somewhere, he convicted me that I wasn't "discerning" quite as much as I was gossiping! Triple whoa! An even deeper level of sin.
That pointed me to something. He's been working on peeling away my sin all along and I'm busy trying to cover it up. I feel like I'm an onion of sin. I have layer upon layer upon layer. He's busy peeling all the layers until he can change me throughout. Matter of fact, I think he's trying to get me to go from onion to pomegranate, with each of those juicy seeds representing something good of him in me. He's got to get rid of my peels and replace them with him.
It hurts. It's frustrating, because I keep thinking "I'm doing what you want, what else is there?" while he keeps showing me another layer of sin, ripping it out, and replacing it with pomegrantey goodness. Painful. AND, I don't even know how many more layers have to be ripped out and replaced. I know I'm an onion, but how big is this onion that he's changing? Every single time I think, "Oh, I get that. Okay, let's work on this together," I keep thinking it can't be that much further to go. I'm looking for "how much further to go?" "Are we there yet, Daddy?"
I don't remember where I read or heard it, but I really do believe God doesn't let us see exactly how sinful we are, or we'd curl up in a ball and be catatonic. And yet, he keeps showing me new layers, so, yeah, I really do think I need to check how many layers are left. God's grace? Of course, but hard to grace without giving the one being graced some idea how big that grace is.
I'm not going for legalism. I'm not going with the law is dead. I'm going with, "Are we even half way there yet, Daddy?" He'll get me there. No doubt. I'm just trying to see what the path looks like to know if I'm really moving forward or simply thinking I've done enough already without noticing. I've been a believer long enough to have done both.
When I was a new believer, my idea of changing was to do all the outward stuff. Treat Mom better, stop fighting my brothers all the time, don't cheat on tests, don't steal what's ever lying around that I wanted. That was me "following that first commandment." I just didn't know any better yet, but I was trying, so that was something.
Then I read what Jesus said about adultery and murder. Whoa! Even thinking about it is sin? Whoa! I realized God had to get in on my actions, because there was no way I'd ever stop thinking my brother is a fool. He convicted me of a deeper layer of sinfulness. So, we've been working on that ever since.
And then I hit upon always needing to love God fully and others. Double whoa! (Whoa whoa! lol) That's one I still chaff over, because I think I should be loving me. I'm very good at loving me, so that's an even deeper level of sin.
And in that, somewhere, he convicted me that I wasn't "discerning" quite as much as I was gossiping! Triple whoa! An even deeper level of sin.
That pointed me to something. He's been working on peeling away my sin all along and I'm busy trying to cover it up. I feel like I'm an onion of sin. I have layer upon layer upon layer. He's busy peeling all the layers until he can change me throughout. Matter of fact, I think he's trying to get me to go from onion to pomegranate, with each of those juicy seeds representing something good of him in me. He's got to get rid of my peels and replace them with him.
It hurts. It's frustrating, because I keep thinking "I'm doing what you want, what else is there?" while he keeps showing me another layer of sin, ripping it out, and replacing it with pomegrantey goodness. Painful. AND, I don't even know how many more layers have to be ripped out and replaced. I know I'm an onion, but how big is this onion that he's changing? Every single time I think, "Oh, I get that. Okay, let's work on this together," I keep thinking it can't be that much further to go. I'm looking for "how much further to go?" "Are we there yet, Daddy?"
I don't remember where I read or heard it, but I really do believe God doesn't let us see exactly how sinful we are, or we'd curl up in a ball and be catatonic. And yet, he keeps showing me new layers, so, yeah, I really do think I need to check how many layers are left. God's grace? Of course, but hard to grace without giving the one being graced some idea how big that grace is.
I'm not going for legalism. I'm not going with the law is dead. I'm going with, "Are we even half way there yet, Daddy?" He'll get me there. No doubt. I'm just trying to see what the path looks like to know if I'm really moving forward or simply thinking I've done enough already without noticing. I've been a believer long enough to have done both.
Then I read what Jesus said about adultery and murder. Whoa! Even thinking about it is sin? Whoa! I realized God had to get in on my actions, because there was no way I'd ever stop thinking my brother is a fool. He convicted me of a deeper layer of sinfulness. So, we've been working on that ever since.
And then I hit upon always needing to love God fully and others. Double whoa! (Whoa whoa! lol) That's one I still chaff over, because I think I should be loving me. I'm very good at loving me, so that's an even deeper level of sin.
And in that, somewhere, he convicted me that I wasn't "discerning" quite as much as I was gossiping! Triple whoa! An even deeper level of sin.
That pointed me to something. He's been working on peeling away my sin all along and I'm busy trying to cover it up. I feel like I'm an onion of sin. I have layer upon layer upon layer. He's busy peeling all the layers until he can change me throughout. Matter of fact, I think he's trying to get me to go from onion to pomegranate, with each of those juicy seeds representing something good of him in me. He's got to get rid of my peels and replace them with him.
It hurts. It's frustrating, because I keep thinking "I'm doing what you want, what else is there?" while he keeps showing me another layer of sin, ripping it out, and replacing it with pomegrantey goodness. Painful. AND, I don't even know how many more layers have to be ripped out and replaced. I know I'm an onion, but how big is this onion that he's changing? Every single time I think, "Oh, I get that. Okay, let's work on this together," I keep thinking it can't be that much further to go. I'm looking for "how much further to go?" "Are we there yet, Daddy?"
I don't remember where I read or heard it, but I really do believe God doesn't let us see exactly how sinful we are, or we'd curl up in a ball and be catatonic. And yet, he keeps showing me new layers, so, yeah, I really do think I need to check how many layers are left. God's grace? Of course, but hard to grace without giving the one being graced some idea how big that grace is.
I'm not going for legalism. I'm not going with the law is dead. I'm going with, "Are we even half way there yet, Daddy?" He'll get me there. No doubt. I'm just trying to see what the path looks like to know if I'm really moving forward or simply thinking I've done enough already without noticing. I've been a believer long enough to have done both.