Are Roman Catholics Christians

[Seedz]

I believe you have over complicated the scriptures, and you have become suspicious abut those similarities because they sound miraculous. We need faith to believe the Bible, the word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing.
Unless the Holy Spirit opens your spiritual eyes, you won't be able to accept the truth of scripture because you are using carnal reasoning to understand spiritual things.

You should do some cross examination of the gospels. Do Mark and John, or Matthew and Mark. Look into the crucifixition story or the ride into town of Jesus' story in Matthew and Mark. Those are just a couple discrepancies. Either the accounts are true or not. 2 different accounts does not equal to truth, it's impossible to know the truth since the only source is the Bible. These are just 2 basic. Examples. There's a bit more.

 

[Danny1988]

You should do some cross examination of the gospels. Do Mark and John, or Matthew and Mark. Look into the crucifixition story or the ride into town of Jesus' story in Matthew and Mark. Those are just a couple discrepancies. Either the accounts are true or not. 2 different accounts does not equal to truth, it's impossible to know the truth since the only source is the Bible. These are just 2 basic. Examples. There's a bit more.

If the Gospel accounts were all identical, I would think there must have been a conspiracy but the fact that slight variations exists proves they were written by ordinary men with the same imperfections which are common to all men.

Also, they were written many years after the events so you would expect slightly different accounts. They all recorded the same Gospel message, they all wrote the things that Jesus taught them but they recalled them according to their own memories.

I don't think it's wise to dismiss the main Gospel message, because of some insignificant anomalies.

 

[Seedz]

If the Gospel accounts were all identical, I would think there must have been a conspiracy but the fact that slight variations exists proves they were written by ordinary men with the same imperfections which are common to all men.

Also, they were written many years after the events so you would expect slightly different accounts. They all recorded the same Gospel message, they all wrote the things that Jesus taught them but they recalled them according to their own memories.

I don't think it's wise to dismiss the main Gospel message, because of some insignificant anomalies.

I'm not talking about them being identical, or that they must be identical. I'm talking about contradicting and conflicting accounts. If one happened, then the other couldn't have happened and vice versa. It is kind of like buying a book by a particular author on a particular subject. As you read the book, you realize each chapter has a conflicting view, or say on a particular subject compared to the previous chapters. Will this make for a reliable source of information on the subject if there is conflicting information?

A lot of these accounts deal with chronological events which further complicate the development of trust in the passages if they are in conflict with each other. Again, how can you trust one gospel account over the other? Isn't the whole point that they should corroborate completely?

You also mention that "They all recorded the same Gospel message", well sorry to burst your bubble but that is because they have cherry picked which books were in the "most in agreement" and what ideas they wanted to emphasize on to go down into the canon. They had particular theological interests, and even back then not everyone agreed.

There are other manuscripts that were left out of the canon because many of them did not paint Jesus as God in any way, among other ideas.

If the bible is meant to be a divine document, it is no better than any other ancient religious text, and it is not unique, not even in its literary content.

 

[Oaky]

St Francis of Assisi...lived as he understood Christ wanted, referred to himself as Christian....

 

[Danny1988]

I'm not talking about them being identical, or that they must be identical. I'm talking about contradicting and conflicting accounts. If one happened, then the other couldn't have happened and vice versa. It is kind of like buying a book by a particular author on a particular subject. As you read the book, you realize each chapter has a conflicting view, or say on a particular subject compared to the previous chapters. Will this make for a reliable source of information on the subject if there is conflicting information?

A lot of these accounts deal with chronological events which further complicate the development of trust in the passages if they are in conflict with each other. Again, how can you trust one gospel account over the other? Isn't the whole point that they should corroborate completely?

You also mention that "They all recorded the same Gospel message", well sorry to burst your bubble but that is because they have cherry picked which books were in the "most in agreement" and what ideas they wanted to emphasize on to go down into the canon. They had particular theological interests, and even back then not everyone agreed.

There are other manuscripts that were left out of the canon because many of them did not paint Jesus as God in any way, among other ideas.

If the bible is meant to be a divine document, it is no better than any other ancient religious text, and it is not unique, not even in its literary content.

The Bible was written for God's people, it only makes sense to His elect. The ability to believe the Bible is a gift from God, it's not a book that can be read and understood. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal what it all means and without Him it's all foolishness.

The Bible says the the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing.

 

[Seedz]

The Bible was written for God's people, it only makes sense to His elect. The ability to believe the Bible is a gift from God, it's not a book that can be read and understood. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal what it all means and without Him it's all foolishness.

The Bible says the the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing.

And this is a very common answer I get. "it is only for God's people".

Why would the same creator favor a people over an another?

How do you know that you are his?

I used to be a hardcore believer. I used to think I understood the word, and I did, at least in a devotional way.

There definitely are a lot of socially advantageous teachings in the Bible, but when the whole point of the bible is to convey a historically significant event that deals with the eternity of humanity, it better make sense.

It doesn't, not in all aspects.

 

[Danny1988]

And this is a very common answer I get. "it is only for God's people".

Why would the same creator favor a people over an another?

How do you know that you are his?

I used to be a hardcore believer. I used to think I understood the word, and I did, at least in a devotional way.

There definitely are a lot of socially advantageous teachings in the Bible, but when the whole point of the bible is to convey a historically significant event that deals with the eternity of humanity, it better make sense.

It doesn't, not in all aspects.

It makes perfect sense to me and all of my brothers and sisters in Christ say it makes perfect sense to them. We believe that faith in God and His Word is a gift, He only gives it to His elect and leaves the rest in their sin.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice" so only His sheep can hear Him and believe in Him. If you are not one of His sheep, then Gods Word will confuse you but it sounds to me that you are only back slidden. All you need to do is repent and turn from your sins and He will regenerate you and illuminate you with the truth, and you will have no doubts at all.

 

[Seedz]

St Francis of Assisi...lived as he understood Christ wanted, referred to himself as Christian....

Funny thing is that Christianity Nowadays is almost considered an objective faith, hence why people accuse others of heresy.

 

[Seedz]

It makes perfect sense to me and all of my brothers and sisters in Christ say it makes perfect sense to them. We believe that faith in God and His Word is a gift, He only gives it to His elect and leaves the rest in their sin.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice" so only His sheep can hear Him and believe in Him. If you are not one of His sheep, then Gods Word will confuse you but it sounds to me that you are only back slidden. All you need to do is repent and turn from your sins and He will regenerate you and illuminate you with the truth, and you will have no doubts at all.

I wish it were that simple. Maybe Solomon was right, there is much vexation in much wisdom.

 

[Danny1988]

I wish it were that simple. Maybe Solomon was right, there is much vexation in much wisdom.

You're right on the money there, we are not called to to thoroughly examine every single scripture in the Bible and look for any possible discrepancies. We are called to have faith the Lord first and He will add all things to us, including wisdom and intelligence and understanding.
First we need to humble ourselves before the Lord and repent, turn from our sins and trust in the lord Jesus Christ in all things. Then He can do His work of justification and sanctification, He will transform us from being perplexed and worried about everything to being free and with no fear of anything except God Himself. Fear of the God is a healthy thing, it keeps us humble and obedient.

 

[shrume]

You're right on the money there, we are not called to to thoroughly examine every single scripture in the Bible and look for any possible discrepancies. We are called to have faith the Lord first and He will add all things to us, including wisdom and intelligence and understanding.

First we need to humble ourselves before the Lord and repent, turn from our sins and trust in the lord Jesus Christ in all things. Then He can do His work of justification and sanctification, He will transform us from being perplexed and worried about everything to being free and with no fear of anything except God Himself. Fear of the God is a healthy thing, it keeps us humble and obedient.

Can't you see the problem? Can't you see how you're contradicting yourself and what you claim to believe?

 

[Danny1988]

Can't you see the problem? Can't you see how you're contradicting yourself and what you claim to believe?

I'm advising him to do this to find out if he's one of the elect, if he won't do it than it means he's not one of the elect.

 

[shrume]

I'm advising him to do this to find out if he's one of the elect, if he won't do it than it means he's not one of the elect.

Sheesh...

ANYONE can become one of the elect by choosing to believe the gospel.

 

[Jackson123]

The Bible was written for God's people, it only makes sense to His elect. The ability to believe the Bible is a gift from God, it's not a book that can be read and understood. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal what it all means and without Him it's all foolishness.

The Bible says the the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing.

Seem to me God invite every body

Whosoever believe in Him will be save.

Whosoever believe will be elect, so the election base on whosoever believe.

If God elect on random bases, we may not need to pray for other salvation, or even witnessing to other.

Why we preach the gospel to Sam? No matter what if Sam elect he will be save. It doesn't make any difference whether we preach to him or not.

 

[Seedz]

You're right on the money there, we are not called to to thoroughly examine every single scripture in the Bible and look for any possible discrepancies. We are called to have faith the Lord first and He will add all things to us, including wisdom and intelligence and understanding.
First we need to humble ourselves before the Lord and repent, turn from our sins and trust in the lord Jesus Christ in all things. Then He can do His work of justification and sanctification, He will transform us from being perplexed and worried about everything to being free and with no fear of anything except God Himself. Fear of the God is a healthy thing, it keeps us humble and obedient.

It just sounds eerily similar to some kind of blind conditioning without question or judgement involved. This leads me to the following potential conclusions....

1. God does not want us to think critically and favor our inquiring tendencies, the very same virtues we use to stay alive, work, and play.

2. If by chance Calvinism is true, then it would mean that the fact that my brain is working against me is of God's doing, and he deliberately wishes for me to perish.

 

[Seedz]

Christian doctrine came from Rome and the surrounding areas, which is where the Catholic church originates. To say that Catholics aren't "Christians" is like saying Henry Ford isn't an automaker even though he was the first to mass produce cars in america just because modernity has changed the mass production techniques.

My point is that Christianity and the canon come from the same origins of the faith, which the legacy and pedigree has been carried by the Catholic church, whether you like it or not, those are the facts. Bishop of Alexandria Athanasius was the first to push the 27 canonical books of the NT in the 4th century. He is revered as a "doctor of the church" by the catholic faith, and was also called "a pillar of the church" by Gregory of Nazianzus, the 4th century archbishop of Constantinople, the capital of the roman empire during this period, which is directly connected to the origins of the catholic church through the lineage of the popes all having originated in Rome.

Ironically during the early part of the 1st century, the claim is that many of the canonical books were written by the apostles during this period. So much of the new testament, was being written at the cusp of the origin of the catholic church.

Never mind the fact that the original manuscripts do not exist anymore and all we have are copied produced much later around the first half of the second century, the majority came later.

So you are telling me that all I need to do is have faith, and be blind to facts and history? When has the catholic church been "good", what about all of the other sketchy acts they committed throughout history?

Protestants are not unique and they use the same books as these sons of b@&*$#... Only difference is their interpretation.

Interpretation does not validate ORIGIN.

 

[PurpleCandles]

I do not understand what do you mean by predetermination, is that predestination?

It is. It means to pre-ordain or predetermine in advance.

 

[Jackson123]

Christian doctrine came from Rome and the surrounding areas, which is where the Catholic church originates. To say that Catholics aren't "Christians" is like saying Henry Ford isn't an automaker even though he was the first to mass produce cars in america just because modernity has changed the mass production techniques.

My point is that Christianity and the canon come from the same origins of the faith, which the legacy and pedigree has been carried by the Catholic church, whether you like it or not, those are the facts. Bishop of Alexandria Athanasius was the first to push the 27 canonical books of the NT in the 4th century. He is revered as a "doctor of the church" by the catholic faith, and was also called "a pillar of the church" by Gregory of Nazianzus, the 4th century archbishop of Constantinople, the capital of the roman empire during this period, which is directly connected to the origins of the catholic church through the lineage of the popes all having originated in Rome.

Ironically during the early part of the 1st century, the claim is that many of the canonical books were written by the apostles during this period. So much of the new testament, was being written at the cusp of the origin of the catholic church.

Never mind the fact that the original manuscripts do not exist anymore and all we have are copied produced much later around the first half of the second century, the majority came later.

So you are telling me that all I need to do is have faith, and be blind to facts and history? When has the catholic church been "good", what about all of the other sketchy acts they committed throughout history?

Protestants are not unique and they use the same books as these sons of b@&*$#... Only difference is their interpretation.

Interpretation does not validate ORIGIN.

According to this link, there are 14000 origin Old Testament manuscript fragment, and 5300 origin New Testament manuscript fragment.

I believe all book was written in first century, before RCC

 

[Jackson123]

It is. It means to pre-ordain or predetermine in advance.

Thanks,

 

[Seedz]

According to this link, there are 14000 origin Old Testament manuscript fragment, and 5300 origin New Testament manuscript fragment.

I believe all book was written in first century, before RCC

Canonization took place later, and it was a process. The fact that Athanasius pushed for the 27 current books is enough for me to conclude that the RCC was involved in one way or another. The Catholic bible has the same exact 27 books in the NT.