-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Let's look at some other stories Jesus told to teach. Some will begin by stating that the story is a parable some will not but I think we will see similar wording or key wording in these stories that will parallel with the rich man and Lazarus.
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder. . . .
Matthew 18: 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king. . .
Mark 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow and she threw in two mites,. . .
Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors. . . . .
Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves. . . . .
Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them saying, The ground of a certain rich man. . . .
Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree. . . . .
Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons. . . .
Luke 16:1 There was a certain rich man which had a steward. . . .
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain rich beggar named Lazarus. .. .
Do you see the similarities? Of course, it will be said "Oh but names are used in the rich man and Lazarus", which is true names are used but the similarities of the way the stories Jesus told should not be ignored.
Anyway, this thread has probably gone on for long enough because it has degraded to the point of ridicule but I wanted to just add the above.
1 Thess. 4:13,14,18 I would not have you ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.. . . . .Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51,52 Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder. . . .
Matthew 18: 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king. . .
Mark 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow and she threw in two mites,. . .
Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors. . . . .
Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves. . . . .
Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them saying, The ground of a certain rich man. . . .
Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree. . . . .
Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons. . . .
Luke 16:1 There was a certain rich man which had a steward. . . .
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain rich beggar named Lazarus. .. .
Do you see the similarities? Of course, it will be said "Oh but names are used in the rich man and Lazarus", which is true names are used but the similarities of the way the stories Jesus told should not be ignored.
Anyway, this thread has probably gone on for long enough because it has degraded to the point of ridicule but I wanted to just add the above.
1 Thess. 4:13,14,18 I would not have you ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.. . . . .Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51,52 Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
No, I believe that was you.
No, you do not know what a parable is.
No, I'm not "that stupid". I'm also not nearly as crass (there are other words I could use...) as you appear to be with all your insults and LOL's. Your name is IMINJC, which I assume means you believe you are in Jesus Christ. Christ may be in you, but you are not in Him. Somehow I cannot see Jesus Christ acting as you do. Admittedly, I do not always act as I should, but you are in a totally different league.
No, I will be dead. You will too.
If you care to watch a couple of 10 minute videos, here:
Truth Or Tradition - What is the soul? Where does your soul go if you die? Nephesh, Psuche
You stick with believing the devil's lie that dead people aren't dead, and that a parable contains the literal truth about paradise being underground and "just across the gulf" from hell, and I will believe the truth.
No, you do not know what a parable is.
No, I'm not "that stupid". I'm also not nearly as crass (there are other words I could use...) as you appear to be with all your insults and LOL's. Your name is IMINJC, which I assume means you believe you are in Jesus Christ. Christ may be in you, but you are not in Him. Somehow I cannot see Jesus Christ acting as you do. Admittedly, I do not always act as I should, but you are in a totally different league.
No, I will be dead. You will too.
If you care to watch a couple of 10 minute videos, here:
Truth Or Tradition - What is the soul? Where does your soul go if you die? Nephesh, Psuche
You stick with believing the devil's lie that dead people aren't dead, and that a parable contains the literal truth about paradise being underground and "just across the gulf" from hell, and I will believe the truth.
R
why would you interpret this as being the "devils lie"? to imply that the person you are debating's belief's are not in Christ? Would this be you speaking the truth in love as you are called to do, or being right in the flesh because he called you "that stupid". YIKES guys!!! IMINJC do you think he hears you when you call him "that stupid"?
The devil's lie (one of them) is that the dead aren't really dead.
Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
IMINJC (I'm sure you'll read this), I do not know you. You may indeed be a wonderful person, and a conscientious Christian. But you are not treating me like one. Maybe you merely have a case of "keyboard courage", and think what you type does not affect people. It does.
I love God, and His son Jesus Christ. I believe you do as well. I believe what I do because it's taught in God's Word. A believer's hope is in the return of Christ, not in death. Death is an enemy, not the welcome doorway to eternity.
You obviously do not believe the same way I do.
We'll find out.
Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
IMINJC (I'm sure you'll read this), I do not know you. You may indeed be a wonderful person, and a conscientious Christian. But you are not treating me like one. Maybe you merely have a case of "keyboard courage", and think what you type does not affect people. It does.
I love God, and His son Jesus Christ. I believe you do as well. I believe what I do because it's taught in God's Word. A believer's hope is in the return of Christ, not in death. Death is an enemy, not the welcome doorway to eternity.
You obviously do not believe the same way I do.
We'll find out.
It is much more likely for the devil to try and convince believers that their soul and body go into the grave at death and to discourage them from any hope of a resurrection. In the mean time, while they are still alive, he gets them to believe they can lose their salvation through not repenting of sin, not practicing the commandments or by having no fruit in their lives. This way he has a better chance to inhibit them and destroy the testimony of the finished work of Christ and defer their hope in the promises of God. For the devil to condone such doctrine for the believer to be absent from the body at death and immediately be present with the Lord, is a great hope that he does not want believers to have, for it reveals that Jesus Christ destroyed and defeated the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8) and him that had the power of death (Heb 2:14).
The devil in the garden was not trying to get them to believe a lie but rather to entice them to see that the fruit was good for wisdom and for food so that they would eat it and therefore go against the word of God and be separated from God just as he was. The death that Adam and the woman experienced in the garden was separation from the voice of God and the effects of that death was self-consciousness, fear, insecurity and isolation through independence from God's voice and God's presence. They use to meet God in the cool of the day but now they were hiding and realized they were naked.
The devil in the garden was not trying to get them to believe a lie but rather to entice them to see that the fruit was good for wisdom and for food so that they would eat it and therefore go against the word of God and be separated from God just as he was. The death that Adam and the woman experienced in the garden was separation from the voice of God and the effects of that death was self-consciousness, fear, insecurity and isolation through independence from God's voice and God's presence. They use to meet God in the cool of the day but now they were hiding and realized they were naked.
Last edited:
The devil does all these things - but the first thing he did was lie. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil andthe lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.
1) Satan - Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden. Is that what God said? No. In this lie, Satan questioned the integrity of what God had said.
2) Eve - We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: - omitted a word "freely"
3) Eve - But of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, - She started considering what Satan had told her
4) Eve - Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. - added a word "touch"
5) Satan - Ye shall not surely die - God said: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. He totally changed the word by lying.
Our hope is in the resurrection.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. By saying that people are already in heaven, you are saying that they already see him and are already like him - When will be like him, when shall we see him - when he appears. Didn't Satan change the word of God in the beginning?
1 Thess. 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? When are we in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ - at his coming.
So the lie is that the dead are already risen and in heaven.
1) Satan - Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden. Is that what God said? No. In this lie, Satan questioned the integrity of what God had said.
2) Eve - We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: - omitted a word "freely"
3) Eve - But of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, - She started considering what Satan had told her
4) Eve - Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. - added a word "touch"
5) Satan - Ye shall not surely die - God said: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. He totally changed the word by lying.
Our hope is in the resurrection.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. By saying that people are already in heaven, you are saying that they already see him and are already like him - When will be like him, when shall we see him - when he appears. Didn't Satan change the word of God in the beginning?
1 Thess. 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? When are we in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ - at his coming.
So the lie is that the dead are already risen and in heaven.
I
REDEMPTION.
YOU SAID: stupid". YIKES guys!!! IMINJC do you think he hears you when you call him "that stupid"?
Your absolutely right of course not...I apologize for that statement to SHROOM2..it was actually STUPID to say it. I am sorry if I have offended anyone else on this thread please forgive me.
YOU SAID: stupid". YIKES guys!!! IMINJC do you think he hears you when you call him "that stupid"?
Your absolutely right of course not...I apologize for that statement to SHROOM2..it was actually STUPID to say it. I am sorry if I have offended anyone else on this thread please forgive me.
I
SHROOM2.
YOU SAID: Your name is IMINJC, which I assume means you believe you are in Jesus Christ. Christ may be in you, but you are not in Him. Somehow I cannot see Jesus Christ acting as you do. Admittedly, I do not always act as I should, but you are in a totally different league.
Finally we agree on something....I'm sorry that I offended you in this way..I ask your forgiveness. You have done or said nothing on this thread to deserve that childish statement made by me.
I will however have to decline to watch your video, only because I'm sure there is nothing there that I have not already seen or heard. I take it that you have watched it..so I'm sure if there was a definite FACT of the reality of soul sleep in the video..you would have already presented it. Again I'm so sorry about the false statement that I made concerning your Character..
YOU SAID: Your name is IMINJC, which I assume means you believe you are in Jesus Christ. Christ may be in you, but you are not in Him. Somehow I cannot see Jesus Christ acting as you do. Admittedly, I do not always act as I should, but you are in a totally different league.
Finally we agree on something....I'm sorry that I offended you in this way..I ask your forgiveness. You have done or said nothing on this thread to deserve that childish statement made by me.
I will however have to decline to watch your video, only because I'm sure there is nothing there that I have not already seen or heard. I take it that you have watched it..so I'm sure if there was a definite FACT of the reality of soul sleep in the video..you would have already presented it. Again I'm so sorry about the false statement that I made concerning your Character..
I
PEACFULBELIEVER.
YOU SAID: Do you see the similarities? Of course, it will be said "Oh but names are used in the rich man and Lazarus", which is true names are used but the similarities of the way the stories Jesus told should not be ignored.
Oh of course I see the similarities...Laodicea pointed this out in a earlier post that I never got around to responding to. It definitely can't be ignored and it starts out like every other parable. I clearly see why anyone would see this as a parable.
But as you posted above..an even bigger thing about this "Parable" that can't be ignored is....Jesus mentions names. Since we know that Abraham was an actual person...this qualifies everyone in the story as actual people even the nameless Rich Man. This is what causes it to cease from being a parable...its now something else. .The Movie "The Watchmen" was a story about actual historical figures interacting with fictitious Super Heroes. Nobody took this movie seriously when Richard Nixon was quoted in this movie because there was an. EXPLANATION given...it was a movie version of a Graphic Novel. If there was no explanation given the quotes that Richard Nixon made would have been scrutinized and Labeled as untrue..or Lies.
In the story Jesus tells there is No EXPLANATION given...not even a mention of this being a parable in scripture or follow up statements by Jesus to indicate that it wasn't an actual event, not even any statements by Jesus or anyone that the Soul sleeps at death. Because there is no explanation given,..this would convict Jesus of making false statements concerning Abraham in any court of law the world....Don't take my word for it ask around.
So if quoting Abraham in this story makes everyone else actual people as well...why didn't Jesus give us the name of the Rich Man? My OPINION is (this is not a fact) that there were those there listening that knew this man and his family...after all he was Rich, Jesus didn't say how rich. My opinion as to why he told us the beggars name is because no one would remember a beggar.
Check it out with Literature Scholars or those trained in the disciplines of story telling, they will tell you that this story does not qualify as a parable. In the style that this story is told..the teller of this story believes these accounts to be historical Fact.
YOU SAID: Do you see the similarities? Of course, it will be said "Oh but names are used in the rich man and Lazarus", which is true names are used but the similarities of the way the stories Jesus told should not be ignored.
Oh of course I see the similarities...Laodicea pointed this out in a earlier post that I never got around to responding to. It definitely can't be ignored and it starts out like every other parable. I clearly see why anyone would see this as a parable.
But as you posted above..an even bigger thing about this "Parable" that can't be ignored is....Jesus mentions names. Since we know that Abraham was an actual person...this qualifies everyone in the story as actual people even the nameless Rich Man. This is what causes it to cease from being a parable...its now something else. .The Movie "The Watchmen" was a story about actual historical figures interacting with fictitious Super Heroes. Nobody took this movie seriously when Richard Nixon was quoted in this movie because there was an. EXPLANATION given...it was a movie version of a Graphic Novel. If there was no explanation given the quotes that Richard Nixon made would have been scrutinized and Labeled as untrue..or Lies.
In the story Jesus tells there is No EXPLANATION given...not even a mention of this being a parable in scripture or follow up statements by Jesus to indicate that it wasn't an actual event, not even any statements by Jesus or anyone that the Soul sleeps at death. Because there is no explanation given,..this would convict Jesus of making false statements concerning Abraham in any court of law the world....Don't take my word for it ask around.
So if quoting Abraham in this story makes everyone else actual people as well...why didn't Jesus give us the name of the Rich Man? My OPINION is (this is not a fact) that there were those there listening that knew this man and his family...after all he was Rich, Jesus didn't say how rich. My opinion as to why he told us the beggars name is because no one would remember a beggar.
Check it out with Literature Scholars or those trained in the disciplines of story telling, they will tell you that this story does not qualify as a parable. In the style that this story is told..the teller of this story believes these accounts to be historical Fact.
I
PEACFULBELIEVER.
You Said: The devil does all these things - but the first thing he did was lie. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil andthe lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.
1) Satan - Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden. Is that what God said? No. In this lie, Satan questioned the integrity of what God had said.
2) Eve - We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: - omitted a word "freely"
3) Eve - But of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, - She started considering what Satan had told her
4) Eve - Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. - added a word "touch"
5) Satan - Ye shall not surely die - God said: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. He totally changed the word by lying.
Our hope is in the resurrection.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. By saying that people are already in heaven, you are saying that they already see him and are already like him - When will be like him, when shall we see him - when he appears. Didn't Satan change the word of God in the beginning?
This is all good stuff...very good post. Your absolutely correct the Devil takes advantage of every door way that we give him.
But we must understand that just because Satan may take advantage of people believing that the souls of dead loved ones continue to exist, that doesn't mean that it isn't true. For instance the Bible says that there are Three that bare record in heaven, that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..the Devil has taken advantage of that and created God like Trinity's in most Paganistic religions of the world...this has persuaded some not to believe in the Trinity concept of the God Head. The Bible talks about tithing...but of course the Devil has caused so much corruption in our churches from this that many no longer believe in giving to the church anymore.....Just a thought.
You Said: The devil does all these things - but the first thing he did was lie. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil andthe lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.
1) Satan - Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden. Is that what God said? No. In this lie, Satan questioned the integrity of what God had said.
2) Eve - We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: - omitted a word "freely"
3) Eve - But of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, - She started considering what Satan had told her
4) Eve - Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. - added a word "touch"
5) Satan - Ye shall not surely die - God said: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. He totally changed the word by lying.
Our hope is in the resurrection.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. By saying that people are already in heaven, you are saying that they already see him and are already like him - When will be like him, when shall we see him - when he appears. Didn't Satan change the word of God in the beginning?
This is all good stuff...very good post. Your absolutely correct the Devil takes advantage of every door way that we give him.
But we must understand that just because Satan may take advantage of people believing that the souls of dead loved ones continue to exist, that doesn't mean that it isn't true. For instance the Bible says that there are Three that bare record in heaven, that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..the Devil has taken advantage of that and created God like Trinity's in most Paganistic religions of the world...this has persuaded some not to believe in the Trinity concept of the God Head. The Bible talks about tithing...but of course the Devil has caused so much corruption in our churches from this that many no longer believe in giving to the church anymore.....Just a thought.
peacefulbeliever,
The above are beautiful words of truth that every believer can be edified and benefit from. The Spirit within witnesses with our spirit the life of the truth, not in terms of competitive knowledge but in terms of the life of Christ. If we are to measure the scriptures, we should do it always in terms of how it ministers Christ's life in our mind, our heart and in our soul. To think that we could love the Lord with all our heart and soul for (40) years and then have our soul die with our body and have no more ability to love the Lord is not the life of Christ that we have been given. Think about it.
The above are beautiful words of truth that every believer can be edified and benefit from. The Spirit within witnesses with our spirit the life of the truth, not in terms of competitive knowledge but in terms of the life of Christ. If we are to measure the scriptures, we should do it always in terms of how it ministers Christ's life in our mind, our heart and in our soul. To think that we could love the Lord with all our heart and soul for (40) years and then have our soul die with our body and have no more ability to love the Lord is not the life of Christ that we have been given. Think about it.
R
Pretty sure we've all been there, me I think, moreso than others. What speaks volumes though is the heart of the believer in Christ in response to a post like mine. (many would respond in further anger & attack) I find your heart to be just fine. hugs. (not that what I find matters in the grand scheme of things )
)
Last edited by a moderator:
I hope that you do not think that I am just posting to be competitive. We spend our life loving God and His Son and our hope is in the resurrection when we will be with them forever. Yes, it is very precious (costly) when one of God's saints die:
Psalm 116:15 Precious (yakar=costly) in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psalm 116:15 Precious (yakar=costly) in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
You will never find the resurrection referred to other than bodily, it is a bodily resurrection that will be reunited with the soul to put on incorruption. Jesus, nor any of the apostles made any reference to the soul going to the grave with the body at death. For the unbeliever they will be raised to be reunited with their body to face the Lord at the great white throne judgment. There is a heaven, there is a hell and when people die they go to one or the other separated from their body which remains in the grave until a time of judgment which will require a resurrection. There is no such thing as soul-sleep and never has been. It is a false doctrine and those that believe it are in error. PERIOD
If you are a new believer and you have a hunger for God's word, to live by the truth and have fellowship with our Lord, I encourage you find a local church that magnifies Christ, that teaches sound doctrine and the whole counsel of God and has a godly emphasis on the corporate body of Christ, that is strong in grace while they practice the love of God and winning the lost. When God leads you to that church be faithful to that calling and hide the word in your heart every day and never quit. Don't let anyone discourage you from following our Lord in His body, the church.
If you are a new believer and you have a hunger for God's word, to live by the truth and have fellowship with our Lord, I encourage you find a local church that magnifies Christ, that teaches sound doctrine and the whole counsel of God and has a godly emphasis on the corporate body of Christ, that is strong in grace while they practice the love of God and winning the lost. When God leads you to that church be faithful to that calling and hide the word in your heart every day and never quit. Don't let anyone discourage you from following our Lord in His body, the church.
Please show me where the bible says it is "a bodily resurrection that will be reunited with the soul".
I don't think you can. Instead, it says the dead in Christ shall be raised.
Acts 2:
29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he [ the man, not just his body ] is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, he had been dead for four days. Jesus plainly said he was dead (john 11:14). According to you, Jesus would have had to call his soul back from heaven. After experiencing "heaven" for four days, I don't imagine Lazarus was too thrilled to be yanked back to earth to his old body, only to die again later on. Before Jesus raised him, Martha understood that he would indeed live again "in the resurrection at the last day".
Where do people get the idea that the soul is somehow a separate entity from the body and can live on when the body dies? Where does that come from? (besides misunderstanding the parable of Luke 16).
People are integrated beings. A living person is made of body and breath-life (soul).
Geb 2:7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [ nephesh ].
(yes, I am aware Christians also have holy spirit)
Animals have soul.
Gen 1:21) And God created great whales, and every living creature [ nephesh ] that moveth...
Soul is simply that which gives life to the body.
The word "creature" in Gen 1:21 is the exact same word as "soul" in Gen 2:7.
The soul does not float off to heaven or hell when a person dies. When a person dies, he is dead, body and soul. If he had holy spirit, it returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7).
This is why people need to be resurrected. Raised from the dead. They will receive new bodies (Phil 3:21) made alive by spirit instead of soul.
Again, the bible says nothing about anyone's soul being "reunited" with their body.
I believe the bible teaches the exact opposite is true. When people die they are dead, and will remain so until either the rapture (for Christians), the resurrection of the just (for OT believers), or the resurrection of the unjust (for everyone else). PERIOD!
The bible plainly says death is an enemy (1 Cor 15:26). It plainly says that dead people know nothing (Ecc 9:5).
I agree!
I don't think you can. Instead, it says the dead in Christ shall be raised.
Acts 2:
29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he [ the man, not just his body ] is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, he had been dead for four days. Jesus plainly said he was dead (john 11:14). According to you, Jesus would have had to call his soul back from heaven. After experiencing "heaven" for four days, I don't imagine Lazarus was too thrilled to be yanked back to earth to his old body, only to die again later on. Before Jesus raised him, Martha understood that he would indeed live again "in the resurrection at the last day".
Where do people get the idea that the soul is somehow a separate entity from the body and can live on when the body dies? Where does that come from? (besides misunderstanding the parable of Luke 16).
People are integrated beings. A living person is made of body and breath-life (soul).
Geb 2:7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [ nephesh ].
(yes, I am aware Christians also have holy spirit)
Animals have soul.
Gen 1:21) And God created great whales, and every living creature [ nephesh ] that moveth...
Soul is simply that which gives life to the body.
The word "creature" in Gen 1:21 is the exact same word as "soul" in Gen 2:7.
The soul does not float off to heaven or hell when a person dies. When a person dies, he is dead, body and soul. If he had holy spirit, it returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7).
This is why people need to be resurrected. Raised from the dead. They will receive new bodies (Phil 3:21) made alive by spirit instead of soul.
Again, the bible says nothing about anyone's soul being "reunited" with their body.
I believe the bible teaches the exact opposite is true. When people die they are dead, and will remain so until either the rapture (for Christians), the resurrection of the just (for OT believers), or the resurrection of the unjust (for everyone else). PERIOD!
The bible plainly says death is an enemy (1 Cor 15:26). It plainly says that dead people know nothing (Ecc 9:5).
I agree!
I
SHROOM2
YOU SAID: "Please show me where the bible says it is "a bodily resurrection that will be reunited with the soul".
YOU ALSO SAID: "Where do people get the idea that the soul is somehow a separate entity from the body and can live on
the body dies? Where does that come from?"
Your first question is the best question that you have asked so far in my humble opinion very legitimate question because there is no scripture that actually says it, but it will be answered at the end of my post.
Your second question is easy to answer.
Acts 2:27
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Do you see how this scripture deals with the body and soul…separately? It says the BODY will rest…or you could say… the BODY will sleep…IN HOPE…in hope of what?...THAT IT WOULD NOT SEE CORRUPTION…and it didn’t.
It says the Soul will not be left in Hades..it does not say the Soul will rest with the body. This is consistent with the story Jesus told about Lazarus. Abrahams bosom was in Hades..all the righteous souls were all held there captive..God made sure they were comforted but as you have pointed out it may have been a paradise, but it sure was in a bad neighborhood. So no soul desired to be left there.
Consider This:
GENESIS 3:19
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”
God is clearly speaking to the body of man here...Notice how He refers to the “sweat of the brow” and “eating food”…non of which the Soul does. It was the BODY that was formed from the dust of the ground…NOT THE SOUL..it BECAME..when God breathed man’s spirit into the body.
So what of the Soul at death?
MARK 15:37
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
This means Jesus Soul left His body….So as the body returns to the earth from where it came the Soul does not…based on the scripture above it clearly goes somewhere else.
Jesus revealed that before His death burial and resurrection, righteous souls were carried by the Angels to Abraham’s bosom, now the Souls are carried into Jesus presence.
It is obvious that the righteous souls of the dead must be reunited with their resurrected bodies because the righteous Souls are with the Lord.
The departing soul of a righteous person going into the pressence of the Lord was a belief of Paul's as well.
PHILLIPPIANS 1:20-26
20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For[c] I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.
Paul is trying to decide here if he should embrace death over life. Paul said to die is gain..Why would He say that? Notice how he refers to death...DEPART...depart from what?...His BODY. Where does he believe his soul will go when it departs his body?...to the dust of the ground to sleep?...Of course not..whats the gain in that?...TO BE WITH CHRIST! WHICH IS FAR BETTER.... This is very consitent with the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the Richman as well as the verse in 2Corrinthians 5:1-7 "absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord"
AGAIN YOU SAID: "Where do people get the idea that the soul is somehow a separate entity from the body and can live on the body dies? Where does that come from?"
We get it from Paul and Jesus of course, and these are FACTS. Its a FACT that Jesus quoted Abraham, and its also a FACT that Paul said that his soul would be with Jesus when it departed his body.
Now show me where soul sleep is a FACT in scripture, without a list of OT scriptures with an attachment of someones interpretation of what those scriptures may mean. I mean specific FACTS...like I have shown. What Parable insinuates or alludes to its reality or existence..what apostle wrote about it or made the statement "I shall remain in the body and know nothing until you resurect me Lord"..... If Soul Sleep is a reality it should be something specific in the Bible that says it plainly without needing a mans interpretation....anything?
YOU SAID: "Please show me where the bible says it is "a bodily resurrection that will be reunited with the soul".
YOU ALSO SAID: "Where do people get the idea that the soul is somehow a separate entity from the body and can live on
the body dies? Where does that come from?"
Your first question is the best question that you have asked so far in my humble opinion very legitimate question because there is no scripture that actually says it, but it will be answered at the end of my post.
Your second question is easy to answer.
Acts 2:27
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Do you see how this scripture deals with the body and soul…separately? It says the BODY will rest…or you could say… the BODY will sleep…IN HOPE…in hope of what?...THAT IT WOULD NOT SEE CORRUPTION…and it didn’t.
It says the Soul will not be left in Hades..it does not say the Soul will rest with the body. This is consistent with the story Jesus told about Lazarus. Abrahams bosom was in Hades..all the righteous souls were all held there captive..God made sure they were comforted but as you have pointed out it may have been a paradise, but it sure was in a bad neighborhood. So no soul desired to be left there.
Consider This:
GENESIS 3:19
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”
God is clearly speaking to the body of man here...Notice how He refers to the “sweat of the brow” and “eating food”…non of which the Soul does. It was the BODY that was formed from the dust of the ground…NOT THE SOUL..it BECAME..when God breathed man’s spirit into the body.
So what of the Soul at death?
MARK 15:37
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
This means Jesus Soul left His body….So as the body returns to the earth from where it came the Soul does not…based on the scripture above it clearly goes somewhere else.
Jesus revealed that before His death burial and resurrection, righteous souls were carried by the Angels to Abraham’s bosom, now the Souls are carried into Jesus presence.
It is obvious that the righteous souls of the dead must be reunited with their resurrected bodies because the righteous Souls are with the Lord.
The departing soul of a righteous person going into the pressence of the Lord was a belief of Paul's as well.
PHILLIPPIANS 1:20-26
20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For[c] I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.
Paul is trying to decide here if he should embrace death over life. Paul said to die is gain..Why would He say that? Notice how he refers to death...DEPART...depart from what?...His BODY. Where does he believe his soul will go when it departs his body?...to the dust of the ground to sleep?...Of course not..whats the gain in that?...TO BE WITH CHRIST! WHICH IS FAR BETTER.... This is very consitent with the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the Richman as well as the verse in 2Corrinthians 5:1-7 "absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord"
AGAIN YOU SAID: "Where do people get the idea that the soul is somehow a separate entity from the body and can live on the body dies? Where does that come from?"
We get it from Paul and Jesus of course, and these are FACTS. Its a FACT that Jesus quoted Abraham, and its also a FACT that Paul said that his soul would be with Jesus when it departed his body.
Now show me where soul sleep is a FACT in scripture, without a list of OT scriptures with an attachment of someones interpretation of what those scriptures may mean. I mean specific FACTS...like I have shown. What Parable insinuates or alludes to its reality or existence..what apostle wrote about it or made the statement "I shall remain in the body and know nothing until you resurect me Lord"..... If Soul Sleep is a reality it should be something specific in the Bible that says it plainly without needing a mans interpretation....anything?