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The thing is, we cannot separate the 10 commandments from the 600. They are a complete unit known as the "Law of Moses". Separating the 10 from the others is like only saying we can obey the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself but it's ok to not love God. The 10 are the most important and are more or less a summary of all the laws. For example, it says, to keep the sabbath in the 10 commandments, but then the other 600 laws detail exactly how a person can keep the sabbath - no lighting fires, no travelling more than a mile or two, no working etc, plus the descriptions of the other sabbaths that no one bothers with or even knows about. The 10 commandments are a summary of the moral law, of the most important ones to follow. If you keep the 10 most important ones by obeying the two greatest commandments, then logically you also keep the less important ones as well, in a moral /spiritual sense, by default.
O
I'm getting a bit confused with all the posts.
From what I read, it seems that we both agree that to follow the first two commandments will lead you to follow the other 8 commandments?
Ok, next part. So you are saying that if I follow the 10 commandments (implicitly, spiritually, from a moral sense or otherwise) then I've "followed" (so to speak) all the other Mosaic laws at the same time?
Please don't take this personally. I just want to make sure I understand the points being presented first. I don't want to debate if I don't understand your points completely.
From what I read, it seems that we both agree that to follow the first two commandments will lead you to follow the other 8 commandments?
Ok, next part. So you are saying that if I follow the 10 commandments (implicitly, spiritually, from a moral sense or otherwise) then I've "followed" (so to speak) all the other Mosaic laws at the same time?
Please don't take this personally. I just want to make sure I understand the points being presented first. I don't want to debate if I don't understand your points completely.
1
i beleive most of the laws in the torah were for jews and levites alone.wich was a way to purify apeople so a vessel (JESUS)for a holy GOD could be created. the law was to consecrate the jews.for example when it comes th eating swine,we know that jews are forbidden to eat.but GOD told noah all living things shall be food for you.gen9:3-7.the law wasn't saving the jews only JESUS could do that,NO ON IS RIGHTOUS NO NOT ONE.jews and gentiles alike must come through christ.the ten commandments are rules for holy living that we should not depart from i beleive that we don't have to keep the rabbinic laws just the ten,but anyone who does not have jesus is gultiy of breaking the law.and will not enter the kingdom of heaven on there own merits any way.
S
Try to understand what these scriptures are saying to those that are under the law.
Rom 3:19-22 ~ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.
1Cor 15:56 ~ The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Rom 6:14,15 ~ For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
1Cor 9:20,21 ~ And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Gal 3:21-29 ~ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham's seed was according to the promise and not according to the law. The law came 430 years after the promise was given / Gal 3:16,17. Abraham believed the promise by faith and it was put on his account as righteousness. We are the children of God, and heirs according to the promise by faith and not by the works of the law.
Rom 4:13-16 ~ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
Being under the law means, if you transgress or offend the law in any point you have broken the whole law and you are a transgressor of the law. There is no grace or mercy for those who are under the law and transgress. You must be treated as a transgressor and come under the wrath of God because the law worketh wrath / Rom 4:15.
James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
If you live under the law you shall be judged by the law as transgressors, but if you live under grace you shall be judged by the law of liberty where mercy rejoices against judgment. God will never give grace to those that live under the law, therefore, you can't live by grace being under the law. The only righteousness that God will put on our account is when we exercise faith in the promises of God / Rom 1:17. When we mix faith with the promises of God (that came by faith) that will produce works of faith that justifies the fruit of our labor. In that sense we are justified not only by faith but also by works and the fruit of our labor / James 2:21-24. Remember that the first work of God produced in our life was to believe on the name of the Son of God whom God sent/ John 6:29.
Rom 3:19-22 ~ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.
1Cor 15:56 ~ The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Rom 6:14,15 ~ For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
1Cor 9:20,21 ~ And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Gal 3:21-29 ~ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham's seed was according to the promise and not according to the law. The law came 430 years after the promise was given / Gal 3:16,17. Abraham believed the promise by faith and it was put on his account as righteousness. We are the children of God, and heirs according to the promise by faith and not by the works of the law.
Rom 4:13-16 ~ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
Being under the law means, if you transgress or offend the law in any point you have broken the whole law and you are a transgressor of the law. There is no grace or mercy for those who are under the law and transgress. You must be treated as a transgressor and come under the wrath of God because the law worketh wrath / Rom 4:15.
James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
If you live under the law you shall be judged by the law as transgressors, but if you live under grace you shall be judged by the law of liberty where mercy rejoices against judgment. God will never give grace to those that live under the law, therefore, you can't live by grace being under the law. The only righteousness that God will put on our account is when we exercise faith in the promises of God / Rom 1:17. When we mix faith with the promises of God (that came by faith) that will produce works of faith that justifies the fruit of our labor. In that sense we are justified not only by faith but also by works and the fruit of our labor / James 2:21-24. Remember that the first work of God produced in our life was to believe on the name of the Son of God whom God sent/ John 6:29.
There is a difference, the 10 commandment are God's unchangable moral law, the 603 ''Levitical law'' are for the Jewish state, telling them how to run their new founded country. I must keep God's moral law, but I am not a part of the Jewish state or their laws, being a Gentile, no more than i am under Canadian laws as an American.
L
You think that only 10 of the mitzvot are moral and the rest are "levitical" laws to establish the land of Israel?
First of all, you realize that not all the mitzvot are found in Leviticus right? First commandment is in Genesis(be fruitful and multiply). last commandment is in Deuteronomy(don't drink wine of idolaters...I believe that is the last commandment. I could be wrong.).
Second, more than 10 of the mitzvot are moral in nature.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
First of all, you realize that not all the mitzvot are found in Leviticus right? First commandment is in Genesis(be fruitful and multiply). last commandment is in Deuteronomy(don't drink wine of idolaters...I believe that is the last commandment. I could be wrong.).
Second, more than 10 of the mitzvot are moral in nature.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
They were given to the Jews and Israel on clay or stone tablets mind you, so I find your stsatement about keeping them, but ignoring the other 600 a bit strange. The funniest thing is, that you haven't included the two greatest commandments in those 10 moral ones. The two greatest commandments come from the same chapters as the Levitical laws. For example, Lev 19:18 is loving thy neighbour as thyself. A few verses later we read that you shall not round the corners of your head etc. So I think your distinguishing between moral and immoral commands, is asburd and illogical because they are all part of the same.
You do realise that the two greatest commandments that Jesus referred to aren't even part of the 10? I hope.
You do realise that the two greatest commandments that Jesus referred to aren't even part of the 10? I hope.
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O
I feel left out that Snail responded to everyone else's replies but not mine. 
Well, I re-read your posts and yes, that is what you said.
So you basically said this:
To keep all the 10 commandments is to have kept all the other moral laws (the rest of the Mosaic Law). So the contrapositive should also be true. Not keeping all of the other moral laws (the rest of the Mosaic Law) is not to have kept all the 10 commandments.
Since I definitely don't keep all of the Mosaic laws, then that means I don't keep the 10 commandments. Since I don't keep all of the Mosaic laws because Jesus declared I don't have to, then it means I don't have to keep the 10 commandments either. So to answer the question "Are the ten commandments still valid today?" Then I would have to now change my answer to 'no.'
But now that I think about it, it's kind of true... if I see a really nice car that I want, I might've momentarily "idolized" the car. If I see something that a friend has, I might've momentarily "coveted" their good fortune and their goods. Hating someone is equivalent to killing someone and I know I've hated people in the past and I'm sure in a moment of choler, I might get that hate feeling as well. So I've essentially committed "murder." I'm sure there are many other examples that I do not want to elaborate on.
I think this is one of those few rare threads where someone debates themselves into the opposite view... lol and if anyone thinks I'm being sarcastic, I'm not. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense...
Well, I re-read your posts and yes, that is what you said.
So you basically said this:
To keep all the 10 commandments is to have kept all the other moral laws (the rest of the Mosaic Law). So the contrapositive should also be true. Not keeping all of the other moral laws (the rest of the Mosaic Law) is not to have kept all the 10 commandments.
Since I definitely don't keep all of the Mosaic laws, then that means I don't keep the 10 commandments. Since I don't keep all of the Mosaic laws because Jesus declared I don't have to, then it means I don't have to keep the 10 commandments either. So to answer the question "Are the ten commandments still valid today?" Then I would have to now change my answer to 'no.'
But now that I think about it, it's kind of true... if I see a really nice car that I want, I might've momentarily "idolized" the car. If I see something that a friend has, I might've momentarily "coveted" their good fortune and their goods. Hating someone is equivalent to killing someone and I know I've hated people in the past and I'm sure in a moment of choler, I might get that hate feeling as well. So I've essentially committed "murder." I'm sure there are many other examples that I do not want to elaborate on.
I think this is one of those few rare threads where someone debates themselves into the opposite view... lol and if anyone thinks I'm being sarcastic, I'm not. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense...
Oh im sorry oopsie if you wanted me to reply to you. I should be so lucky .
The two commandments about love are not part of the 10 commandments but certainly they are all related to it.
I'm saying if you follow the two greatest commandments you follow the whole 10 + the whole 600 or so. Read the books of Exodus, Deuteronomy to Leviticus it soon becomes clear that the 10 commandments are not the only ones in there. For example which of the 10 commandments says that fornicators must marry?But the ones such as trimming beards become obsolete, and many of the practical commands take on spiritual meaning. To love God with all our heart implies that God also loves us with all His heart, mind, soul and strength. Because of that we are under God's love and grace and are not subject to 600+ laws, that besides the fact that gentiles are not bound to Jewish law. I think the 10 commandments are valid today but how we obey them changed. In order to keep the Sabbath according to the law you have to not travel, and not light fires and things like this. The orthodox and conservative Jews even ban motor car travel or switching lights on or off because it is lighting a fire. In that sense no Christian I know of not even Seventh day adventists actually keep the Sabbath according to God's law. All they do is take the command in the 10 commandments and have a day off and think they are keeping the sabbath, when in reality if you read the detail they're not even supposed to travel to church if it's further than a mile or two. The whole of the Jewish Law was never intended for gentiles not even the 10 commandments. But Christ did not come and replace it but rather upheld it by preaching the two greatest commandments, if they are fulfilled then the rest is fulfilled in my view. For example, it says you shall not mark your body in Leviticus but many christians today disagree with tattoos? Why? Because they love God and want to honor their body and keep their body unmarked. Beard trimming - I havent figured that one out yet, but I'm sure that all of the laws all 600 of them have some sort of basis in love, for God is love.
. The two commandments about love are not part of the 10 commandments but certainly they are all related to it.
I'm saying if you follow the two greatest commandments you follow the whole 10 + the whole 600 or so. Read the books of Exodus, Deuteronomy to Leviticus it soon becomes clear that the 10 commandments are not the only ones in there. For example which of the 10 commandments says that fornicators must marry?But the ones such as trimming beards become obsolete, and many of the practical commands take on spiritual meaning. To love God with all our heart implies that God also loves us with all His heart, mind, soul and strength. Because of that we are under God's love and grace and are not subject to 600+ laws, that besides the fact that gentiles are not bound to Jewish law. I think the 10 commandments are valid today but how we obey them changed. In order to keep the Sabbath according to the law you have to not travel, and not light fires and things like this. The orthodox and conservative Jews even ban motor car travel or switching lights on or off because it is lighting a fire. In that sense no Christian I know of not even Seventh day adventists actually keep the Sabbath according to God's law. All they do is take the command in the 10 commandments and have a day off and think they are keeping the sabbath, when in reality if you read the detail they're not even supposed to travel to church if it's further than a mile or two. The whole of the Jewish Law was never intended for gentiles not even the 10 commandments. But Christ did not come and replace it but rather upheld it by preaching the two greatest commandments, if they are fulfilled then the rest is fulfilled in my view. For example, it says you shall not mark your body in Leviticus but many christians today disagree with tattoos? Why? Because they love God and want to honor their body and keep their body unmarked. Beard trimming - I havent figured that one out yet, but I'm sure that all of the laws all 600 of them have some sort of basis in love, for God is love.
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Oh im sorry oopsie if you wanted me to reply to you. I should be so lucky .
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I believe whenever the bible talks about "the law", it means the whole shebang of 10 commandments + 600. Although it is common practice to separate the 10 from the 600 in Christianity I see no basis to do so. Because if you are arguing to keep the sabbath in the 10 commandments why aren't you also arguing to keep the law of beard trimming?
You know Paul wrote that the law cannot make anyone perfect, and that includes the 10 commandments:
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
But 1 John 4 talks about perfect love in which there is no fear at judgement day. There is no fear at judgement day if love is perfected because perfect love results in perfect obedience apart from the Law of Moses , for Jew and Gentile alike. I think the only time a Christian should be talking about trying to keep the 10 commandments or any of the Jewish law , is when it is in the context of loving God or loving others. Which Law did Adam and Eve have? Which Law did Abraham or Noah or Enoch use? They didn't have any sort of written law of Moses, because they didn't need it, they walked in the love of God. The old testament promises which are fulfilled since Christ, was that God would write His law on our hearts. So why do we keep talking about following the written letter of the law?
You know Paul wrote that the law cannot make anyone perfect, and that includes the 10 commandments:
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
But 1 John 4 talks about perfect love in which there is no fear at judgement day. There is no fear at judgement day if love is perfected because perfect love results in perfect obedience apart from the Law of Moses , for Jew and Gentile alike. I think the only time a Christian should be talking about trying to keep the 10 commandments or any of the Jewish law , is when it is in the context of loving God or loving others. Which Law did Adam and Eve have? Which Law did Abraham or Noah or Enoch use? They didn't have any sort of written law of Moses, because they didn't need it, they walked in the love of God. The old testament promises which are fulfilled since Christ, was that God would write His law on our hearts. So why do we keep talking about following the written letter of the law?
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