Are the words of the Messiah above all else?

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Are the words of the Messiah above all else?


  • Total voters
    16

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#1
Are the words of the Messiah above all else? or Is every biblical writer of the same authority?

I say 100% without a doubt Yahshua's words are above all, this is Scriptually why I believe this:

John 8:17-18, “In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two people is valid. I am testifying about myself, and the Father who sent me is testifying about me.”

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:22-23, “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”


 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
3,460
272
83
#2
did the Lord Jesus pick up a quill and write those words personally?

why should i believe anything John, Luke, or Moses writes?

you reveal perhaps you haven't thought this through, because it seems what you're saying is you trust the Holy Spirit to use the Gospel writers and Moses (in those examples) to record the words He wishes, but not so much the rest of the Scriptures which are equally breathed out by God.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#3
did the Lord Jesus pick up a quill and write those words personally?

why should i believe anything John, Luke, or Moses writes?

you reveal perhaps you haven't thought this through, because it seems what you're saying is you trust the Holy Spirit to use the Gospel writers and Moses (in those examples) to record the words He wishes, but not so much the rest of the Scriptures which are equally breathed out by God.
I think you are going beyond what I have said. I believe all Scripture writers are Yah inspired, even 1 Enoch (1st 36 chapters, as it is 5 different books compiled) However I do put Yahshua's words direct and YHWH direct words above all else, in a sense of Instructions not authenticity. Can you tell me whay this was written if all words are the same:

Why would YHWH say He would "raise a a prophet..that we must hear and obey"


Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


Why would Yahshua say "the word I have spoken"

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and
does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Why would Acts 3:22-23 make a distinction of a particular person as it does?


Acts 3:22-23, “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

Why would the holy SPirit bring to rememberance "His words"


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,337
10,414
113
#4
does scripture have to be set against itself for this question to have any meaning?

does this question make any sense at all unless it's assumed that some combination of the law, the prophets, the gospels and the epistles are somehow giving a different word from each other?



((not that i think Hiz is thinking they do, just that it's an obvious question that comes up))
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#5
does scripture have to be set against itself for this question to have any meaning?

does this question make any sense at all unless it's assumed that some combination of the law, the prophets, the gospels and the epistles are somehow giving a different word from each other?



((not that i think Hiz is thinking they do, just that it's an obvious question that comes up))
and a good question, not easy but one that is sure to come up on this topic.

Simply I say no, the word is in agreement, peoples understanding is not always right, I myself am not perfect and I am always learning.

I have aset of questions in this matter that I have gone over with many before.

Some people say Paul taught a different gospel than Yahshua/Jesus, some say they taught the same.

I, in my mind and heart can simplify this for my own understanding, I would liek to hear your view in this matter and any who want to chime in.

Who is "the prophet we must hear and obey" spoken of in Deut 18 and Acts 3?

Now this next part can be applied to anyone Joohn, James, Peter, Paul, etc. But I want to use Paul because people have differing views on this.

If the Messiah and Paul teach the same thing, no difference then I would have all the same information if I choose to only read the Messiah or only Paul.

If Paul taught something additional or different than the Messiah than I would need to read Paul also.

So the question whould be did Paul teach differently and I needed to hear him would that not make the "One we must hear and obey obselete?" or would Paul be the "One we must hear and obey?"

Now I dont ask this because I am unsure, I know Yahsua is the One spoken of in Deut 18 and Acts 3, I ask the uestion because there is much debate and people say Paul had "the full message" and things like this, however if that were true that would mean he taugt different and "the One we must hear and obey" the "knows all things" did not really know all things and He would not be the one we need to hear and obey/shawmmah.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#6
Also I want to dd that it is not just me that believes Yahshua is this "One we must hear and obey":

Acts 3:20-23,20 and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you,"21 whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which Elohim spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old."22 “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you."23 ‘And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ Deu 18:15-19."
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,212
10,094
113
#7
This OP looks like an exercise in baiting.

2 Timothy 3:16-17.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#8
Are the words of the Messiah above all else? or Is every biblical writer of the same authority?

I say 100% without a doubt Yahshua's words are above all, this is Scriptually why I believe this:

John 8:17-18, “In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two people is valid. I am testifying about myself, and the Father who sent me is testifying about me.”

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:22-23, “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”


This OP looks like an exercise in baiting.

2 Timothy 3:16-17.
I assure you I am baiting nobody, if you look at what I post outside this thread I think it is clear I hold the wordsof Messiah in the highest regard.

DO you not see a reason why I posted this if you consider this:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”


 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
#9
Also I want to dd that it is not just me that believes Yahshua is this "One we must hear and obey":

Acts 3:20-23,20 and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you,"21 whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which Elohim spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old."22 “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you."23 ‘And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ Deu 18:15-19."
I am also far from perfect and am still learning as you know. 25 years ago when I first repented and really started looking into what the Word really said it was hard to understand Paul. I think it was mostly because I had been influenced by so many different religious traditions and my mind had untruths in it. More than once I threw my Bible against the wall and threw my hands in the air in tears and frustration. My Bible still has the scars to show it.


But I always went back after my tantrum and prayed and humbled myself to the Word knowing it couldn't be God who was confused or deceived, it must be me.

Over time I started "seeing" things I never really saw before. Like what Paul said in acts about the Law and Prophets, and where his belief was founded. If he believed "ALL things" written in the Law and Prophets, then I needed to study more about his topics from the OT.

That was the turning point for me. That was when I really "SAW" what the New Covenant was. When I started to understand what the Priesthood was and the Works of the Law associated with it. That was when I started to see how the Priests had corrupted the Word for centuries and God first sent the Prophets to correct them, which they killed, then He went Himself as Prophesied.

Now I see very little contradiction between what the Word which became Flesh taught in both the OT and as the man, the Messiah and what Paul taught. In most every case when I thought Paul was contradicting the Messiah, I went to the Messiah. And every time I found it was my understanding that was wrong, not Paul, nor the Christ.

This is a great topic and an opportunity for people who are seeking to voice their question about Paul's teaching. For me now I see no difference between what Paul taught and the Word which became Flesh taught. And if I did, I know Paul would direct me to the Christ and His Words, not Paul's.

AS he explains in;

1 Cor. 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So as far as Paul is concerned, we listen to The Word which became Flesh.

Great topic Shamah :^)
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#10
we listen to The Word which became Flesh.
I think we all go through ups and downs when we truly seek Yah and His truth, there comes a time when we have to put our tradition and self desire aside to accept what He has put before us.

Makes me think of this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you”


[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 10:38-39, “And he who does not take up his stake and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He who has found his life shall lose it, and he that has lost his life for My sake shall find it."


PraiseYah for He guides!
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#11
John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"


So who taught Moses how to write the written spoken word? Pharaoh?


And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. Deut 9:10

There is no evidence that the ancient Egyptians ever had obtained the ability to communicate using the written spoken word. Pharaoh and Egypt survived the Exodus.

And Solomon brought up the daughter of Pharaoh out of the city of David unto the house that he had built for her: for he said, My wife shall not dwell in the house of David king of Israel, because the places are holy, where unto the ark of the LORD hath come. 2 Chron 8:11

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”
See Exodus 7:1

Since a man can receive nothing except it be given unto him from heaven (See John 3:27) then how does a man receive that which is given unto him from heaven?

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. John 7:16

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. John 12:44

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. John 13:20

Bonus question, who said I am the seed?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,045
7,264
113
#12
...why should i believe anything John, Luke, or Moses writes?...
No one will compel you to do so, but if you claim to be a Christian and refuse to believe them, then you are just fooling yourself.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,045
7,264
113
#13
So who taught Moses how to write the written spoken word? Pharaoh?
Would you have a problem with believing that God Himself taught Moses WHAT TO WRITE? As to how to write, that is a given. Moses did not live among ignorant savages.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
4,122
845
113
#14
Seems to me that the entire word carries the full weight of the messiah. The only contradiction that exists is in the mind of the reader and is the result of the failure of properly harmonizing the text.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,333
9,991
113
75
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#15
does scripture have to be set against itself for this question to have any meaning?

does this question make any sense at all unless it's assumed that some combination of the law, the prophets, the gospels and the epistles are somehow giving a different word from each other?



((not that i think Hiz is thinking they do, just that it's an obvious question that comes up))

Here are a couple of scriptures I can’t reconcile. Many try to draw doctrine on these but we only have one reference of each. This first one was at Christ’s death on the cross.

Matt. 27:52-53: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The next two must be in a parable although many say it points to the spirit staying alive in purgatory.

Luke 16:20: “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

These scriptures tell us that we are not to establish doctrine on one witness.

Matt. 18:16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Cor. 13:1: “This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Too many other scriptures say the dead are asleep, awaiting resurrection.

[SUB]Anyone have any thoughts? [/SUB]


 
Last edited:

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,810
1,117
113
#16
All of Scripture is equally inspired. The direct words of Jesus in the Gospels carry much weight and authority. So do the writings of Paul, Peter, Moses, etc. which were also given by God to them.

To say one has more weight than another is pitting the Holy Spirit's inspiration against the words of the Son! The Trinity do not fight among themselves.
 
Last edited:

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#17
Would you have a problem with believing that God Himself taught Moses WHAT TO WRITE? As to how to write, that is a given. Moses did not live among ignorant savages.
The fact a person does not know how to read and write during the time when nobody knew how to read and write the written spoken word make a person an ignorant savage.

So I take it that by your comment "that is a given" then what you are saying is that you presume that Moses learned how to write the written spoken word from the Egyptians, who themselves did not have the ability to write using the written spoken word.

You can take a child and give them a crayon and piece of paper and they can draw pictures and tell you what the images mean, but in time the meaning is lost, but give them a book containing the written word and they will never be able to tell what you what is written in the book until they are taught by someone how to read.

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isa 29:12
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,898
14,081
113
#18
So I take it that by your comment "that is a given" then what you are saying is that you presume that Moses learned how to write the written spoken word from the Egyptians, who themselves did not have the ability to write using the written spoken word.
The Pentateuch was not written in Egyptian.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#19
Are the words of the Messiah above all else? or Is every biblical writer of the same authority?
Jesus did not write anything we have.

His words are written by two apostles (Matthew and John) and by two other people (Mark, Luke).

While Jesus is above any man, the record of Matthew, John, Mark and Luke are not more inspired than other apostolic writings.

And thats the limitation of Bible. Its given through men. We must use it as a basic knowledge about apostolic Christianity, but we must continue to know God through the Holy Spirit in us and through His creation.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
132
63
#20
Jesus did not write anything we have.

His words are written by two apostles (Matthew and John) and by two other people (Mark, Luke).

While Jesus is above any man, the record of Matthew, John, Mark and Luke are not more inspired than other apostolic writings.

And thats the limitation of Bible. Its given through men. We must use it as a basic knowledge about apostolic Christianity, but we must continue to know God through the Holy Spirit in us and through His creation.

The Bible has no limitations and it is our knowledge of the Word that is basic, not the Word itself. Jesus choose Paul to bring His gospel to the gentiles but that does not make Paul's writings any more or any less inspired than any other part of the Word.