Are the words of the Messiah above all else?

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Are the words of the Messiah above all else?


  • Total voters
    16

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
15,638
9,325
113
74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
Heaven is not, as some believe, the future home of any man, righteous or not.
Well prove-all, I can't say this sentence is 100% true. We may well be dispatched to another galaxy after New Jerusalem is established here on earth. But then again, New Jerusalem will still be home wherever we happen to be working. So I guess it is 100% true. Wherever God is, is home. :cool:
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
In Heb. 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,” should be translated “through the heavens.”
We see that Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and
outer space—as He ascended to the third heaven.

John 3:13 reveals that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
There are those that say this means only by there own power, and distort verse.

Certainly many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft and
other means,this verse can only refer to the third heaven, where the Almighty God resides.

Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven, which he did—but not to the third
heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1., the sky above.

Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been miraculously transported to
another location on Earth.


Heaven is not, as some believe, the future home of any man, righteous or not.
Revelation 5:10 shows that God’s saints will reign not in heaven but “on the earth.”
Jesus came to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:and this was never heaven.

Revelation 21 and 22 describe the coming time when God the Father and heavenly
Jerusalem will come down to Earth after it has been purified. In other words, man
is not going to heaven—God is coming here!
O'BOYA Yeah I know it. Please, Elijah was no space traveler who sat on a moon perhaps in some distant galaxy. But wait!....................
maybe you HAVE just explained the face of the man on the moon! Will wonders ever cease!?????? They should hire you to be one of those Astronaut Theorist on ANCIENT ALIENS on the History Channel. And look you already have a follower who gave you a thumbs up. This could be the start of a new career for you .
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
This could be the start of a new career for you in stupidity.
You like to use the word stupid/stupidity towards other people a lot, do you find you feel better about yourself when you do this.....just wondering?:unsure:

Also wondering how this affects your restoration process?:unsure:
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,035
433
83
I was just pondering the two witnesses this past weekend (reading, studying, watching others' studies, etc.) and a few interesting points made sense...

Luke 10:1-23 NIV
10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”



- Christ sent out 72 (2 by 2) = 36 pairs of "Two Witnesses" went ahead of Christ into each towns.
- Their job was literally to prepare the way of the lord.
- They were given authority over demons, to heal the sick, and protected from harm...just like the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
- As representative of Christ, if people listened or rejected them it was the same as if done to Christ himself.

So technically the two witnesses don't have to be anyone from the past. Just like during Christ's ministry, two new disciples can be granted authority to do "the Elijah work" to prepare Christ's way, but doubled (since it's two of them)...and if doubled then I guess they are technically like "Elisha" (double-portion of Elijah's spirit). Elijah challenge false worship and inspire repentance.


...If this wasn't already highly intriguing then also consider this...

So 36 pairs of "Two Witnesses" = 72 total witnesses that Christ gave power to during his ministry to go into towns ahead of him to prepare his way, right?

Well what's 72 total x 2000 = ? o_O


If Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever then per the same method found in Luke 10, how many pairs of witnesses would He need to do "the Elijah work" across the cities of the world in order to prepare the way for His final coming?

Is it plausible Christ gives authority to 2,000 times the number witnesses he sent out during his ministry, for the greater task of a world harvest that's been growing for nearly 2000 years? 72,000 others, sent two by two?

Revelation 10:11
"...Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."


I think the 144,000 ARE the two witnesses.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
I was just pondering the two witnesses this past weekend (reading, studying, watching others' studies, etc.) and a few interesting points made sense...

Luke 10:1-23 NIV
10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”


- Christ sent out 72 (2 by 2) = 36 pairs of "Two Witnesses" went ahead of Christ into each towns.
- Their job was literally to prepare the way of the lord.
- They were given authority over demons, to heal the sick, and protected from harm...just like the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
- As representative of Christ, if people listened or rejected them it was the same as if done to Christ himself.

So technically the two witnesses don't have to be anyone from the past. Just like during Christ's ministry, two new disciples can be granted authority to do "the Elijah work" to prepare Christ's way, but doubled (since it's two of them)...and if doubled then I guess they are technically like "Elisha" (double-portion of Elijah's spirit). Elijah challenge false worship and inspire repentance.


...If this wasn't already highly intriguing then also consider this...

So 36 pairs of "Two Witnesses" = 72 total witnesses that Christ gave power to during his ministry to go into towns ahead of him to prepare his way, right?

Well what's 72 total x 2000 = ? o_O


If Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever then per the same method found in Luke 10, how many pairs of witnesses would He need to do "the Elijah work" across the cities of the world in order to prepare the way for His final coming?

Is it plausible Christ gives authority to 2,000 times the number witnesses he sent out during his ministry, for the greater task of a world harvest that's been growing for nearly 2000 years? 72,000 others, sent two by two?

Revelation 10:11
"...Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."


I think the 144,000 ARE the two witnesses.
Wow I have never heard this possibility before, I have heard many ideas and have had many myself, Scripture does not explicitly say thus I try to keep an open mind. Very interesting tho... I heard someone saying the 2 witnesses were the books also, this was just a few days ago... IM saving your possibility in a notepad! in any case praiseYah brother! may He bless you and keep you!
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,035
433
83
Wow I have never heard this possibility before, I have heard many ideas and have had many myself, Scripture does not explicitly say thus I try to keep an open mind. Very interesting tho... I heard someone saying the 2 witnesses were the books also, this was just a few days ago... IM saving your possibility in a notepad! in any case praiseYah brother! may He bless you and keep you!
Yeah it was like one of those "hairs standing on the back of your neck" moments, like "could it be??" Not 100% sure, but I'm leaning towards it since the numbers are reasonable.

Oh and small EDIT to my last post: "72,000 others, sent two by two?" should read, "144,000 others, sent two by two?"

But yes Praise Yah, and blessings Shamah.
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
You like to use the word stupid/stupidity towards other people a lot, do you find you feel better about yourself when you do this.....just wondering?:unsure:

Also wondering how this affects your restoration process?:unsure:
stu·pid
ˈst(y)o͞opəd/
adjective
adjective: stupid; comparative adjective: stupider; superlative adjective: stupidest
  1. 1.
    having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    "I was stupid enough to think she was perfect"
    synonyms:unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish; More
How bout a more older use of the WORD Stupid- FOOL, foolish. And aren't we self righteous you have said lot worse than that in your false doctrine concerning the word. And in your attempt to tell me something you admit a restoration can be lost . I have dealt with you.

But don't worry pussy cat , I am a sheep and since you have spoken falsely about the Word am not under correction from you.On that note I will own my words. We will see who was stupid and wise in the end (FOOLISH- MODERN STUPID) AND WISE VIRGINS. I will guarantee I will remain standing becase I clearly see what is in from of me in the word.
Stupid is as stupid does (FOOLISH) and stupid is an action not just a state of being. You should be more concerned if I called any of you brood of vipers= children of devils. But when you can not see plain text then the only conclusion is- if you are unintelligent than you are straight up stupid. Actually I hope that is the case and not just arrogant ,prideful defiance to the OBVIOUS language of words. For a stupid man can be made smart as I have been made through Christ. But a prideful arrogant man will never be saved!
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
stu·pid
ˈst(y)o͞opəd/
adjective
adjective: stupid; comparative adjective: stupider; superlative adjective: stupidest
  1. 1.
    having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    "I was stupid enough to think she was perfect"
    synonyms:unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish; More
How bout a more older use of the WORD Stupid- FOOL, foolish. And aren't we self righteous you have said lot worse than that in your false doctrine concerning the word. And in your attempt to tell me something you admit a restoration can be lost . I have dealt with you.

But don't worry pussy cat , I am a sheep and since you have spoken falsely about the Word am not under correction from you.On that note I will own my words. We will see who was stupid and wise in the end (FOOLISH- MODERN STUPID) AND WISE VIRGINS. I will guarantee I will remain standing becase I clearly see what is in from of me in the word.
Stupid is as stupid does (FOOLISH) and stupid is an action not just a state of being. You should be more concerned if I called any of you brood of vipers= children of devils. But when you can not see plain text then the only conclusion is- if you are unintelligent than you are straight up stupid. Actually I hope that is the case and not just arrogant ,prideful defiance to the OBVIOUS language of words. For a stupid man can be made smart as I have been made through Christ. But a prideful arrogant man will never be saved!
In front of me, to say. 5mins annoying!
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
60
Please, Elijah was no space traveler who sat on a moon perhaps in some distant galaxy.
I never said Elijah was a space traveler, he flew through the air in the first heaven.
That would be where the birds and the bees fly, in the first heaven, or sky above us.

Heaven Defined

“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them”
This word heavens refers to two different heavens. (Gen. 2:1)

The first heaven consists of the Earth’s atmosphere. The second heaven is
the vast reaches of space beyond the atmosphere.

There is also a third heaven: the home of God. The Apostle Paul saw this “third heaven,”
where God’s throne is, in a vision (ii Cor. 12:1-2). This vision was so intensely realistic
that Paul was unable to tell if he was physically there, or if he was seeing it in his mind.

Please read your bible, and not some book that is not even in it.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
60
stu·pid
ˈst(y)o͞opəd/
adjective
adjective: stupid; comparative adjective: stupider; superlative adjective: stupidest
  1. 1.
    having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    "I was stupid enough to think she was perfect"
    synonyms:unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish; More
How bout a more older use of the WORD Stupid- FOOL, foolish. And aren't we self righteous you have said lot worse than that in your false doctrine concerning the word. And in your attempt to tell me something you admit a restoration can be lost . I have dealt with you.

But don't worry pussy cat , I am a sheep and since you have spoken falsely about the Word am not under correction from you.On that note I will own my words. We will see who was stupid and wise in the end (FOOLISH- MODERN STUPID) AND WISE VIRGINS. I will guarantee I will remain standing becase I clearly see what is in from of me in the word.
Stupid is as stupid does (FOOLISH) and stupid is an action not just a state of being. You should be more concerned if I called any of you brood of vipers= children of devils. But when you can not see plain text then the only conclusion is- if you are unintelligent than you are straight up stupid. Actually I hope that is the case and not just arrogant ,prideful defiance to the OBVIOUS language of words. For a stupid man can be made smart as I have been made through Christ. But a prideful arrogant man will never be saved!
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother,
Raca, shall be in danger of the council:

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
stu·pid
ˈst(y)o͞opəd/
adjective
adjective: stupid; comparative adjective: stupider; superlative adjective: stupidest
  1. 1.
    having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    "I was stupid enough to think she was perfect"
    synonyms:unintelligent, ignorant, dense, foolish, dull-witted, slow, simpleminded, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish; More
How bout a more older use of the WORD Stupid- FOOL, foolish. And aren't we self righteous you have said lot worse than that in your false doctrine concerning the word. And in your attempt to tell me something you admit a restoration can be lost . I have dealt with you.

But don't worry pussy cat , I am a sheep and since you have spoken falsely about the Word am not under correction from you.On that note I will own my words. We will see who was stupid and wise in the end (FOOLISH- MODERN STUPID) AND WISE VIRGINS. I will guarantee I will remain standing becase I clearly see what is in from of me in the word.
Stupid is as stupid does (FOOLISH) and stupid is an action not just a state of being. You should be more concerned if I called any of you brood of vipers= children of devils. But when you can not see plain text then the only conclusion is- if you are unintelligent than you are straight up stupid. Actually I hope that is the case and not just arrogant ,prideful defiance to the OBVIOUS language of words. For a stupid man can be made smart as I have been made through Christ. But a prideful arrogant man will never be saved!
Oh I am not worried in the least. :)

You have called several of us here "stupid" however it would seem a person who is so, so sure of their doctrine (Judas a saved man loosing his salvation, works salvation, lose-able salvation, Mother Mary, Queen of Heaven etc., etc...) would not have to resort to ad Hominem verbiage and attacks.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
15,638
9,325
113
74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
I was just pondering the two witnesses this past weekend (reading, studying, watching others' studies, etc.) and a few interesting points made sense...

Luke 10:1-23 NIV
10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”


- Christ sent out 72 (2 by 2) = 36 pairs of "Two Witnesses" went ahead of Christ into each towns.
- Their job was literally to prepare the way of the lord.
- They were given authority over demons, to heal the sick, and protected from harm...just like the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
- As representative of Christ, if people listened or rejected them it was the same as if done to Christ himself.

So technically the two witnesses don't have to be anyone from the past. Just like during Christ's ministry, two new disciples can be granted authority to do "the Elijah work" to prepare Christ's way, but doubled (since it's two of them)...and if doubled then I guess they are technically like "Elisha" (double-portion of Elijah's spirit). Elijah challenge false worship and inspire repentance.


...If this wasn't already highly intriguing then also consider this...

So 36 pairs of "Two Witnesses" = 72 total witnesses that Christ gave power to during his ministry to go into towns ahead of him to prepare his way, right?

Well what's 72 total x 2000 = ? o_O


If Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever then per the same method found in Luke 10, how many pairs of witnesses would He need to do "the Elijah work" across the cities of the world in order to prepare the way for His final coming?

Is it plausible Christ gives authority to 2,000 times the number witnesses he sent out during his ministry, for the greater task of a world harvest that's been growing for nearly 2000 years? 72,000 others, sent two by two?

Revelation 10:11
"...Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."


I think the 144,000 ARE the two witnesses.
Sorry, it won't work. The two witnesses are killed. No so for the 144,000. Revelation chapter six got up to the 6th seal. Next, the seals are halted, so the 144,000 can be sealed, as stated in Revelation seven. With all the detail given, it has to concern a physical, living group of people. They will obviously be of the bloodline of their respective tribes. We are given further explanation in chapter 14:

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:1,4).

It looks like these will be children or young adults, because they are virgins. It doesn’t make sense to stop the seals if God weren’t saving flesh and blood humans. God could let them just die, like the rest of the saints; and let them become spirits upon Christ's return. These obviously are younger people that God will allow to start the millennial rule. They obviously have the Holy Spirit. So they will be exceptions of being changed into spirits at Christ's coming. Apparently they are to be planted into their tribes original lands for the start of the millennial rule. Remember Ezekiel wrote after the ten northern tribes were long gone. So we see their inheritance being defined for a future time (see Ezekiel 48).
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,035
433
83
Sorry, it won't work. The two witnesses are killed. No so for the 144,000. Revelation chapter six got up to the 6th seal. Next, the seals are halted, so the 144,000 can be sealed, as stated in Revelation seven. With all the detail given, it has to concern a physical, living group of people. They will obviously be of the bloodline of their respective tribes. We are given further explanation in chapter 14:

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:1,4).

It looks like these will be children or young adults, because they are virgins. It doesn’t make sense to stop the seals if God weren’t saving flesh and blood humans. God could let them just die, like the rest of the saints; and let them become spirits upon Christ's return. These obviously are younger people that God will allow to start the millennial rule. They obviously have the Holy Spirit. So they will be exceptions of being changed into spirits at Christ's coming. Apparently they are to be planted into their tribes original lands for the start of the millennial rule. Remember Ezekiel wrote after the ten northern tribes were long gone. So we see their inheritance being defined for a future time (see Ezekiel 48).
(Hmm. I wish we could still create tables on the forum. I want to post a side-by-side like I used to for better visuals. Oh well.)

Well let's explore the idea Deade if but to show where I'm coming from:

If we start from the 5th seal, we have the dead martyrs asking Yah, "how long will we have to wait until our blood is avenged?" And then Yah answers them, "just a little while longer until your fellow servants are killed as you were." (Rev 6:10-11).

So who are these fellow servants who also must be killed? Obviously we know the two witnesses are said to be killed but is that all? Does the text say the 144,000 will be protected from being killed, or just protected from Yah's plagues & wrath?

The last lines in chapter 6 is a statement from Yah's enemies asking a question: "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Then we read...

Revelation 7:3
"...Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads (i.e. the 144,000)."

And later...

Revelation 9:4
4 And it was commanded [of the swarm from the bottomless pit] that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads (i.e. those not of the 144,000).


So after the last question in chapter 6 ("who is able to stand in Yah's wrath?") we are immediately introduced to the 144,000 who are literally called "the servants" (apparently "fellow" servants of the martyrs), who are said to be sealed from by Yah's plagues that fall on all mankind (only the 144,000 are spared). Similarly, we can assume that the two witnesses are also protected from Yah's plagues (obviously because they cause them).

And if we continue with Revelation 14, notice the rest of the detail given in the chapter:

a) In the mouths of the 144,000 is found no lie.

b) Next, the three angel messages are preached to mankind: (1) the gospel, (2) judgment on Babylon, (3) warning to avoid the mark of the beast to escape Yah's wrath.

c) A blessing is given to those who die in the lord "from this point forward..." to rest from their work (they're obviously killed)

d) grapes of wrath; blood as high as horse bridle


...Notice it's the same sequence of events as the two witnesses:

a) introduction of servants (after eating the little book = mouth sweet as honey)
b) delivery of message (I think it's safe to assume it's the same 3 messages)
d) servants are killed afterwards (at the hand of the beast)
e) Yah's wrath on those who killed his servants (the kingdom has become Yah's and his messiah's)

----

I agree that the 144,000 is a flesh and blood living group of people, but not necessarily children just because the text says "virgin". They follow the lamb wherever he goes. And before last weekend I had only noticed the parallels I just shared above. But Luke 10 really confirms things for me.