Are the words of the Messiah above all else?
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Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.
Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
You can call it reinstatement or reincarnation it would all be the same. God is not bringing anyone back from the dead. Here is the angel's announcement of the birth of John the Baptist:
Luke 1:12-17 "And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
It plainly state that he was coming in the "spirit" of Elijah.
Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
You can call it reinstatement or reincarnation it would all be the same. God is not bringing anyone back from the dead. Here is the angel's announcement of the birth of John the Baptist:
Luke 1:12-17 "And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
It plainly state that he was coming in the "spirit" of Elijah.
Elijah is uses a metaphor in parables hiding the spiritual unseen understanding from the lost in order to represent the authority or power of the of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God . It is used in the same way to represent the authority of God in respect to the Son of man and John the Baptist. not seen .
While Moses represented the authority of the law Elijah represented the power or authority of the prophets as two witness God is working in the heart of men
Again another who has not read the writings of Enoch. To ascend is to climb or go up by ones own means. Only Christ can do that. But to be taken up that is always by the power of God in this case through God's Angels. Enoch saw heaven as His writings state, He saw the temple of God and His throne it does not say he was permitted to enter their. Enoch speaks of different levels= many mansions.
You are right no one by Christ has ascended(of their own strength) but have been taken as Elijah obviously was and as scripture states 'FOR GOD TOOK HIM" about Enoch and he was no more= no more among men on earth .Scripture does not contradict itself. Men simply do not understand and therefore in their false narrative also ignore clear accounts of two men having been taken up not ascending (by own power) up to heaven.
That is your opinion you have every right to choose what you want to believe. You have not discredited anything I said.
Do not quote Enoch's writings to me as I do not accept them. I have heard wild stories based on Enoch.
garee: you have just rabbled on and on withput scriptural support. Clear-as the Op states: Christ is the Highest authority. He said it , not me and He is pretty clear. No hidden message: Christ- in like manner concerning John (Elijah) who men did what they willed to him (Body) too in like manner (IN BODY) would suffer at their hands. Christ says clearly: "But I say to you ELIJAH DID COME and they did whatever they pleased to him". Not- a man with the spirit of Elijah had done to his body whatever they wanted to. That is stupid and that is what you are saying. Then in your opinion nothing was done to Elijah whom Christ obviously revealed John as. You can do anything to the spirit in God.
Really! THE ONLY WILD STORIES BEING TOLD ARE BY YOU. ENOCH WAS TAKEN BY GOD ELIJAH WAS TAKEN UP BY GOD! DO NOT MISQUOTE SCRIPTURE TO FIT YOUR NARRATIVE. SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO ME IN BIG LETTERS. I DO NOT ACCEPT YOUR WILD STORES THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THESE TWO MEN WERE TAKEN UP.Do not quote Enoch's writings to me as I do not accept them. I have heard wild stories based on Enoch.
At least I support the WORD as that is what we are discussing , who cares what you think about the Writings of Enoch, you do not even know what ascend means and taken up means. " Lay down My life freely and will take it up again" Christ ascended these two men were taken PERIOD!
Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
It plainly states that he was coming in the "spirit" of Elijah.
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UnderGrace
Guest
Do not quote Enoch's writings to me as I do not accept them. I have heard wild stories based on Enoch.
Amen !!!
You can NOT do anything to the spirit in God. There PERFECT. This forum does not allow much time to edit. C'est la vie.
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UnderGrace
Guest
Just curious do you regard the Book of Enoch as scripture, part of the Old Testament?
That is right and he is Elijah if that is the indwelling Spirit then what does that make the man?
first answer this do use the full Bible or a Lutheran or some sect version? And who complied it for you?
You are after all what you preach
!
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UnderGrace
Guest
first answer this do use the full Bible or a Lutheran or some sect version? And who complied it for you?
You are after all what you preach
So you believe the book of Enoch is divinely inspired? Fine, your choice. I have no informed opinion on the matter at this point in time.
That makes him a completely different person in the spirit of Elijah, a "faith movement" as was Elijah and Elisha. The movement in Christ's time was Him, John the Baptist and the apostles.
I do th
You are so wrong and still have disproved nothing you prove the craziness of your thought process. The Word is Clear "Elijah DID COME and they did (evil men) to HIM whatever they willed". AND THE APOSTLES UNDERSTOOD HE WAS TALKING ABOUT JOHN THE BAPTIST. Sorry your indoctrination does not dominate the WORD. The scriptures are clear, there is nothing more to be said.
Today men do things in the type, not actual. John is actually Elijah. If you do not like it your problem not the Word's.
So let me see if I get this, So Elijah is up in heaven yet his spirit is here on earth Christ says John is Elijah based on what the apostles CLEARLY understand but John is not really Elijah he is an Elijah faith movement , a type , not actual. So then was anything done to Elijah or only John? And at the resurrection what spirit then does John have? And is John a retired prophet at the resurrection or just a man who once was the body of another spirit not his own?
You are so wrong and still have disproved nothing you prove the craziness of your thought process. The Word is Clear "Elijah DID COME and they did (evil men) to HIM whatever they willed". AND THE APOSTLES UNDERSTOOD HE WAS TALKING ABOUT JOHN THE BAPTIST. Sorry your indoctrination does not dominate the WORD. The scriptures are clear, there is nothing more to be said.
Today men do things in the type, not actual. John is actually Elijah. If you do not like it your problem not the Word's.
Why would I read the book of Enoch when it is flawed.
The bible says that Enoch died in faith, the first death.
In Heb. 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,” should be translated “through the heavens.”
We see that Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and
outer space—as He ascended to the third heaven.
John 3:13 reveals that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
There are those that say this means only by there own power, and distort verse.
Certainly many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft and
other means,this verse can only refer to the third heaven, where the Almighty God resides.
Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven, which he did—but not to the third
heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1., the sky above.
Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been miraculously transported to
another location on Earth.
Heaven is not, as some believe, the future home of any man, righteous or not.
Revelation 5:10 shows that God’s saints will reign not in heaven but “on the earth.”
Jesus came to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:and this was never heaven.
Revelation 21 and 22 describe the coming time when God the Father and heavenly
Jerusalem will come down to Earth after it has been purified. In other words, man
is not going to heaven—God is coming here!
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