Are we in the end times ?

[LetGodBeTrue]

Are we in the end times? In my opinion, probably, though I don't want to live anywhere near the great tribulation.

The Great Tribulation is NOT for our day. It is LONG past. Jesus clearly placed it in HIS generation and it was to involve those apostate Jews whom He condemned in Matthew 23. The saints of that day would suffer as well, mostly at the hands of the Jews themselves! The Great Tribulation came upon them during the Jewish Wars with Rome (A.D. 66 - 70). John called himself a fellow partaker in the Tribulation (Rev. 1:9).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

SHORTLY means SHORTLY

Of course "SHORTLY" means "SHORTLY".

But that word (an adverb) is NOT used in Revelation 1:1 (nor 22:6). Hence the reason you keep incorrectly interpreting as you do.

But believe as you wish.

 

[Oblio]

The Great Tribulation is NOT for our day. It is LONG past. Jesus clearly placed it in HIS generation and it was to involve those apostate Jews whom He condemned in Matthew 23. The saints of that day would suffer as well, mostly at the hands of the Jews themselves! The Great Tribulation came upon them during the Jewish Wars with Rome (A.D. 66 - 70). John called himself a fellow partaker in the Tribulation (Rev. 1:9).

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. It is not mine.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You don't like the clear meaning and commonly understood meaning of THIS generation, so you make it THAT generation.

And you've completely ignored what I put about how:

--Luke 21:32's "This generation shall not pass away TILL ALL shall have taken place" MUST INCLUDE what v.24 had ALREADY JUST COVERED... which involvesTWO VERY LENGTHY [duration] ITEMS:

1) "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" (the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13[/Rom11:27] is conveying will occur at THAT point in time: that is, at the "GREAT" trumpet sounding [distinct sound]; Because "LED AWAY CAPTIVE INTO ALL THE NATIONS" is exactly OPPOSITE OF: "ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM")

2) "AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES [not the 'FULNESS'] of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (which "TIMES of the Gentiles" speaks of "Gentile domination over Israel" which STARTED in 606/605bc... re: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb himself as "head of gold" and which will NOT be CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming ["RETURN"] to the earth Rev19, when "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth will "SEE HIM" in His "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" 2Th2:8b [distinct from v.1!])





"TILL ALL shall have taken place" MUST INCLUDE what things v.24 had just spelled out, INCLUDING ITS OWN "UNTIL" matter... but which your viewpoint (Preterism) completely disregards (... seemingly not grasping how "prophecies" actually work... and disregarding as well Rev17:8's "[when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT [at the time written], and YET SHALL BE [future tense]").

 

[shittim]

Are we in the end times? In my opinion, probably, though I don't want to live anywhere near the great tribulation.

The way many of these threads devolve into bitterness, spite, self righteousness, etc. this may be a part of tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The Church which is His body has experienced "tribulation" ever since its existence [Eph1:20-23]... that is, from the first century... See 2Th1:4 = )



[we are not waiting for that future, specific, LIMITED time-period (spoken of in Scripture, that will take place) IN ORDER to EXPERIENCE IT... The Church which is His body has already been experiencing "persecutions and tribulations" ever since its existence in the first century]

 

[peldom10]

We get from this physical dwelling to a heavenly dwelling when our physical bodies die and return to dust in the earth. I don't have to prove that there is no rapture--rapturists need to prove that there is. The "evidence" is lacking. Please show scripture that there IS a rapture.

You can't just say there is no rapture......with supporting scriptures.... and expect people to accept it.
That is a little weird.

 

[peldom10]

The Great Tribulation is NOT for our day. It is LONG past. Jesus clearly placed it in HIS generation and it was to involve those apostate Jews whom He condemned in Matthew 23. The saints of that day would suffer as well, mostly at the hands of the Jews themselves! The Great Tribulation came upon them during the Jewish Wars with Rome (A.D. 66 - 70). John called himself a fellow partaker in the Tribulation (Rev. 1:9).

The great tribulation is yet to come.
Well more correct;...He said it would happen before all living at the time Israel was returned...may 1948...died. As long as one lives the scriptures are validated.

 

[peldom10]

We get from this physical dwelling to a heavenly dwelling when our physical bodies die and return to dust in the earth. I don't have to prove that there is no rapture--rapturists need to prove that there is. The "evidence" is lacking. Please show scripture that there IS a rapture.

U avoided the question...without the rapture...how?

 

[Amanuensis]

The way many of these threads devolve into bitterness, spite, self righteousness, etc. this may be a part of tribulation.

It's just the sin of striving. Paul told Timothy that the servant of the Lord must not strive. Deacons and Elders should not be brawlers, debaters or strivers. Falling into an attitude of striving about an interpretation can disqualify a minister. Maybe not in the eyes of the unspiritual but it will do so in the eyes of the Lord. The eyes of the Lord look for broken and humble hearts not strivers. Strivers will not have the anointing that makes their words of ministry impart life and illumination. Instead they will just talk and produce no life because their spirit of striving has caused them to miss the entire target of true ministry which is servanthood, and a spirit of gentleness.

People are guilty of sinning the sin of strife on these forums and that is why they feel so icky when they get off and reflect on how they have wasted their time arguing with strangers on the internet.

The solution is to repent before the Lord for the sin of striving and arguing and to quit it.

 

[Magenta]

About the reply i expected

Do you deny that I gave Scriptural references and definitions? How odd.

Shall I expect this level of dishonesty from you in future, then?

 

[Amanuensis]

We get from this physical dwelling to a heavenly dwelling when our physical bodies die and return to dust in the earth. I don't have to prove that there is no rapture--rapturists need to prove that there is. The "evidence" is lacking. Please show scripture that there IS a rapture.

1 cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” h

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. This means that there will be some believers alive when the Lord comes who will be changed into the same kind of resurrected body as those who are raised from the grave but without themselves dying first. "We shall not all sleep"

Which is why this is such a grand mystery because death is basically robbed of it's right upon all flesh. The law of death is superseded by the power of the resurrection and what Jesus accomplished taking from death the "right" to be applied to those bodies of those believers who are alive at that time.

Every generation has looked forward to being part of that number but is not disappointed if they are not. Neither are they wrong for expecting it since that day is not a day on a calendar but in the hands of the Father and could have occurred in every generation since the time of Paul. This too is a mystery that I understand but won't argue about it.

 

[Amanuensis]

The Great Tribulation is NOT for our day. It is LONG past. Jesus clearly placed it in HIS generation and it was to involve those apostate Jews whom He condemned in Matthew 23. The saints of that day would suffer as well, mostly at the hands of the Jews themselves! The Great Tribulation came upon them during the Jewish Wars with Rome (A.D. 66 - 70). John called himself a fellow partaker in the Tribulation (Rev. 1:9).

Simple logic reminds us that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust and not as many died in 70AD therefore it is impossible that 70AD was their worse tribulation.

And so we conclude that there is another future fulfilment and it really will be a terrible time on the face of the earth that will include all the judgments to be released when the Lamb takes the title deed scroll of planet earth from the hand of Him who sits on the Throne and begins to open each seal and dispossess the earth of it's unlawful inhabitants and hands it to the redeemed.

John saw a vision of Jesus doing this but the event itself has not happened. Everyone will know when it starts and if they question it, this won't take long to figure out as they seek to go underground to survive. These judgments will not be man's wars or pollution but cosmic fulfilments in details such as the meteorite showers, the sun darkening, the 100 hail stones, etc. They won't doubt that it is Revelation being fulfilled when it actually happens and no one will be seriously thinking that it is aliens. They will know that Revelation and the christian "futurists" were correct but they still won't repent.

That is how I understand these scriptures. Everyone has a right to their own view and I won't argue about it. We will find out soon enough.

In the end these judgments must be fulfilled to fulfill all righteousness and it would not be right if they were done in a corner so that only a few history buffs thought they could tell you when it happened. Just not real judgment that the world deserves. These judgments will be the biggest show on earth and no one will be guessing whether "this is that" or not in that day.

No movie or fiction book (that I have heard about) has captured the true horror of that day. Those who have seen an F5 tornado coming their way when they had no place to hide have probably gotten closer to the horror of that day. 70AD isn't to be compared to what is coming.

Why is this the most popular view? Because it is what is produced by a natural reading of the Bible. The desert island approach to hermeneutics. If it were just you and the bible on an island with no outside influence what would the natural reading produce?

What it DOES produce for most people is a future interpretation and it provokes a response... "Live a holy life, reaching the lost in the light of His coming. Salvation is understood to be salvation from the day of wrath and judgment that is coming on that terrible day that will destroy everyone who is not ready."

 

[Beckie]

John was the only Bible writer to use the word antichrist, in 1 John 2:18, 2:22, 4:3, and 2 John 7. There are many antichrists/false teachers between the time of Christ's first and second coming, and one great Antichrist who will rise to power during the end times. An antichrist denies that Jesus is the Christ, denies both the Father and the Son, and is a liar and a deceiver.

Which of the verses quoted speak of "one Great antichrist"

2 Thess 2:3b ... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Which of the verses quoted speak of "one Great antichrist" ?

 

[Beckie]

The good ol King James does not Say "the great tribulation"

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Rev_2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[ewq1938]

The good ol King James does not Say "the great tribulation"

Isn't that like saying, "President Biden gave a speech today about war." There is no "the President" in the sentence.

The Great Tribulation is the "Great Tribulation" Christ spoke of. The use of "the" means it's a specific time of great tribulation.

 

[Amanuensis]

The good ol King James does not Say "the great tribulation"

.

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Since it is a tribulation that will be worse than anything before or will be again, this makes it unique. Therefore calling it THE great tribulation communicates properly.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Since it is a tribulation that will be worse than anything before or will be again, this makes it unique. Therefore calling it THE great tribulation communicates properly.

And besides that, there is a "definite article" ('the') used in Revelation 7:14, in the Greek (speaking of the same time period that Matthew 24:[15],21 speaks of)


To the point:
Yes.

 

[ewq1938]

And besides that, there is a "definite article" ('the') used in Revelation 7:14

There is no "definite article" ('the') used in the verse nor did all of those seen there lived and/or died during the Great Tribulation. That group is all who have been through any tribulations throughout the church age. Many there did go through the Great Tribulation of the end times but most did not as they lived and died in different periods of time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is no "definite article" ('the') used in the verse

The text states this:

"And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm [<--take note of the definite article used in the Greek in this verse: "3588
tēs " ...translated in English as 'the'... "THE tribulation THE great"... so yes, "the "definite article ['THE']" IS present in the verse]

nor did all of those seen there lived and/or died during the Great Tribulation.

The text itself states, "These are the ones coming out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION"...

... so I'll go with the text itself, what the text itself clearly states, rather than to go with your injected idea of what the text states.

That group is all who have been through any tribulations throughout the church age.

Disagree, based on what the text itself clearly states: "These are the ones coming out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION"...

... which is a VERY SPECIFIC, future, LIMITED (3.5 yr) time-period... specifically, the second half of the "7 yr period" in its entirety.

And vv.16-17 (speaking of those same persons) corresponds with Isaiah 49:10 (an earthly Millennial Kingdom passage), referring to their "destination-location"

Many there did go through the Great Tribulation of the end times but most did not as they lived and died in different periods of time.

This particular passage (vv.9,14-17) speaks ONLY of "the ones coming out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION" per the text (i.e. the second half of the FUTURE "7 yr period" leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth / RETURN to the earth Rev19)...

The passage in Rev7:9,14-17 is NOT referencing all OTHER believers of all OTHER time periods. No.