Are we justified by works?

[willybob]

In Luke 15, Jesus spoke to the pharisees and scribes who murmured because Jesus received sinners and ate with them (Luke 15:2).

The pharisees and scribes believed they were righteous and did not need to repent. The pharisees and scribes would never associate themselves with publicans and sinners, much less eat with them.

In Luke 15:7, Jesus rebuked the pharisees and scribes.

The verse does not indicate that Cornelius, Lydia, Nathaniel, Simeon, Anna, Zecharias, Elizabeth, and others did not need to repent. The verse indicates there is much joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over 99 people who believe they have no need of repentance.

Jesus did not eat with rebellious sinners such as the Pharisees. He ate with those who were seeking Him in truth and humility, thus entering into a season of godly sorrow. The Pharisees thought they were saved while continuing in sin. they believed this because of their religious works of Moses which they perceived justified them...However it was the Pharisees that said Jesus was friends with sinners..Some people just cannot comprehend being free from sin so they resort to every vain argument possible do defend the idea that they must sin and cannot stop...It truly is sad that they will even go to great grlengths to bad mouth the righteous in the bible and insist on calling them sinners. Not a wise thing to do said Ezekiel..

Many know of the story when Jesus fed the 20,000 with a few fish and bread...But what they dont know is that Jesus came back to the same place a year later and upbraided the whole cities in that area such as Caperneium for not departing from sin...He said Sodom and Gomorrah would have already repented if they had seen such miracles...

 

[gb9]

no, most of us just tell the truth, that we are not perfect and sinless, instead of sinless perfectionism lies.......

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus did not eat with rebellious sinners such as the Pharisees.

Jesus ate with pharisees – Luke 7:36, Luke 11:37, Luke 14:1.

He ate with those who were seeking Him in truth and humility, thus entering into a season of godly sorrow. The Pharisees thought they were saved while continuing in sin. they believed this because of their religious works of Moses which they perceived justified them...However it was the Pharisees that said Jesus was friends with sinners.

Right.

And in Luke 15:7, Jesus rebuked the pharisees and scribes, telling them that there is more joy in heaven when one of those sinners (who the pharisees/scribes held in such contempt) repented than when one of the pharisees/scribes (who thought they had no need of repentance).

That is the point of Luke 15:7 --- not that Cornelius, Lydia, Nathaniel, Simeon, Anna, Zecharias, Elizabeth, and others did not need to repent.

Many know of the story when Jesus fed the 20,000 with a few fish and bread...But what they dont know is that Jesus came back to the same place a year later and upbraided the whole cities in that area such as Caperneium for not departing from sin...He said Sodom and Gomorrah would have already repented if they had seen such miracles...

Yep.

Matthew 11:

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

 

[willybob]

In Luke 15 there are three parables.....all describing how sinners come to repentance and are returned to God...Jesus goes out looking and gathering, the church goes out looking and gathering, (plating and watering), and the individual comes to his own senses, and sees the vile and sinful way of his life and decides to go back to his father of his own volition..

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Jesus also said He came to heal the sick not those who are whole...Meaning that there were some who were indeed not spiritually sick, such as Nathaniel whose was ready and willing to receive the Messiah.

Zechariah and Elsbeth were said of God to be keeping all of the commandments, and said to be righteous and blameless/perfect. They needed no repentance and were ready to receive the Messiah and an increase of the Spirit, like wise was Nathaniel sitting under the fig tree (old covenant law) and abiding, so was Simeon and Anna righteous and awaiting the coming of the Messiah..

God said Cornelius was justified, and sinners say he wasn't...Which is it?..The Gentiles in the OT were saved by being obedient to their conscience. They were a law unto themselves said the apostle Paul..They were not held to as high of standards as the Jews were......

Keep in mind also that Jesus said a gentile named the Queen of Sheba would rise up in the judgement of Capernium who repented not..This would not be possible if she were not justified...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The only One who did not need to repent is our Lord Jesus Christ, for He was perfect.

All others have fallen short of the glory of God in one way or another.

 

[garee]

God said Cornelius was justified, and sinners say he wasn't...Which is it?..The Gentiles in the OT were saved by being obedient to their conscience. They were a law unto themselves said the apostle Paul..They were not held to as high of standards as the Jews were......

The term “a law unto themselves”(their conscience) apposes the gospel. The same standard applies to all sinners .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ ,old testament as well as new they simply do not belong to Him.

Justified means exactly that. Justified sinners.

No one has ever been justified according to the imaginations of ones own deceitful heart (conscience) as a false source of faith.

God who performs that which he appoints to us(Philippians 2 :13)is greater than our conscience which is simply a judgment hall, either accusing a person one day or excusing the same, five minutes later.

Keep in mind also that Jesus said a gentile named the Queen of Sheba would rise up in the judgement of Capernium who repented not..This would not be possible if she were not justified

She died a sinner having a living hope in respect to the word of God (not her conscience) She as a new creature, neither male or female Jew nor Gentile would be resurrected on the last day, judgment day .This is evidenced by a new incorruptible body. The former things of this world will not be remembered or ever come to mind.. just as any other sinner born in this world. A dead body witnesses a person was under the wrath of God (coming short of His glory) all the days of their life.

 

[FranC]

Without the faith OF (coming from) Christ no man could believe Him not seen and therefore please Him.

In that way we are to let the mind OF Christ as the source OF His faith working in us. We then can offer our gift of faith towards him as our amen to His faith working in us. (faith is a work)

The newly created faith as to the hearing of it, is the gift of God working in us, not a work of our own selves coming from the imaginations of ones own sinful heart. Natural mans source of faith, no faith coming from God. Not being able to see past their nose as to the unseen spiritual.

Faith, the unseen will of God is a work by which God works to in us to perform His good purposes. He makes our new hearts soft.

The faith OF Christ, the faith OF the Holy Spirit of God is the work of Christ our Faithful creator. When He believes something will happen he declares as a work what he hopes will happen and it does work out.

“Let their be light and there was”.

By believing a work will happen, God exercises (works) His belief by working in us as we are informed in Philippians 2 . Having believed we offer the faith that comes from hearing Him as our thanksgiving as an acknowledgement. Faith works two ways coming from another and our amen as to the agreement. Hebrews 4 calls it mixing faith in what a person does se our hear.

My added opinions in (purple parentheses)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, "work out" (not work for to gain) your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you “both” to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phi 2:12

James 2 begins with begins with the loving commandment... not to have the faith OF Christ as the work OF Christ as if it came from(OF)ourselves or any other person other than God. It is a imputed faith as a rightousness not of our own selves not coming from the imaginations of ones own heart. Faith is a work of God that cannot be separated as a labor of His love.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord OF glory, with respect OF persons.

We can understand it is a work that is not of our own self, but all the same is a work. The conclusion in violting the commandment is that men accredit the work that comes from hearing God to their own selves or that of another man.

Blasphemy is to accredit the work of one to another sort of like plagerisism. The reason for the fall in the begining.

.Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

We cannot have faith IN Christ, towards Christ unless we are first given the faith OF Christ, OF God.

We are justified by works just not that of our own selves or Abraham, like us, because then we would have something to boast in.

Was not Abraham our father “justified by works”, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how (Christ’s) faith wrought with his works, and by works (OF God) working in Abraham was (Christ’s faith) made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, “Abraham believed God”(according to the work OF Gods faith), and it (Christ's work OF faith) was “imputed unto him”( Abraham and Rehab) for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Jam 2:23

There is no other way we could reconcile faith as a work unless it is imputed.

No faith... no work, no work.... no grace, no grace... no salvation.

From my experiences searching out the difference from the faith OF Christ from that OFour own selves, many seem to shy away from God as needing faith in order to work out the good pleasure of His will. having faith IN Christ coming from thier own self.This only shows they are not walking according to the faith of another (Christ the Faithful Creator.

Philippians 3:9 And be found IN him, “not having mine own righteousness”, which is OF the law, but that which is through the faith OF Christ, the righteousness which is OF God by faith:

Hi Garee,

I read the above carefully.
You have so many different ideas in there that I can hardly start.

From what bible are you gettng James 2:7? Mine is speaking about rich people SLANDERING the name of Jesus. THIS IS DIFFERENT from blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

James 2:1 also Leaves me perplexed.

As far as faith, we have our own faith. It's a gift from God. It's not like we have to use God's faith, which is what you make it sound like. God doesn't require faith.
Philippians 1:29
Ephesians 2:8

Do you have a scripture that states that we have God's faith somehow?
You say you've studied the difference between our faith and the faith of Christ. I highlighted it above.
Christ has faith? In what? He's God, He doesn't need faith.

I think I'll stop here because I'm a bit baffled, to tell you the truth.

P.S. I believe you're getting faith mixed up with righteousness, as you posted Philippians 3:9
RIGHTEOUSNESS is imputed to us and we are not righteous of ourselves.
FAITH is of ourselves, as a gift from God, but is not imputed. Because God does not need faith.
Do you have a scripture that clearly states that God has faith??

 

[BillG]

Many know of the story when Jesus fed the 20,000 with a few fish and bread

20,000?

Some people just cannot comprehend being free from sin so they resort to every vain argument possible do defend the idea that they must sin and cannot stop...It truly is sad that they will even go to great grlengths to bad mouth the righteous in the bible and insist on calling them sinners.

Some people can't comprehend that those who understand and know they do not want to sin but when they do, they acknowledge they have sinned. Then in effect you are calling them sinners.

So you accuse them of accusing people who say thay they don't sin or can achieve perfection calling such people as sinners.

You call them sinners and vice versa.

1 John 1:8-9 comes to mind

He ate with those who were seeking Him in truth and humility, thus entering into a season of godly sorrow

After Jesus fed the 5,000 we find the following

John 6:26-30


Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?

That seems to contradict your quote above.

They were not seeking Jesus and entering into a period of Godly sorrow.

They wanted thier bellies filled with food.
Jesus said "The work of God is that you believe in the one whom he sent"

Then they ask him to perform another sign. As if feeding them all the day before was not enough.

Just so you know, that those who When they do sin acknowledge it and seek God and appropriate his forgiveness. In the eyes of God they are righteous, because of Christ and his atonement.

Those who seek sinless perfection do not appropriate his forgiveness and therefore neglect the righteousness that God offers them.

If God were to abandon us, then he would have to abandon his own Son because we are “in Christ.” But he will never abandon his Son, and he will never abandon us. We are as safe in Christ as we could possibly be.

How are we safe in Christ?

Not by being sinless, that's for sure, otherwise he would not have had die for our sins.

 

[mailmandan]

if Cornelius would have died before Peter arrived his soul would have been saved because he was justified by God...he lived by the law of the conscience, and that was all that was required of him...after he received the gospel then more would be required (to whosoevr much is given much is required)......... how do you seem to get every story in the bible backwards? It truly amazes me...

So there are two ways to be saved? Justified by the law of the conscience and justified by faith in Christ? hmm... Your flawed theology continues to amaze me. You never did answer my question:

*Does believing in Him to receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43) exclude repentance? (Acts 11:17,18).

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.



14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Chris1975]

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.



14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God has revealed this to you. Treasure it.

 

[gb9]

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.



14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

there are over 33,000 verses in the Bible. just posting random verses, with no context, is just noise.

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

God has revealed this to you. Treasure it.

im not saying works justify

just posted some scripture


i do feel faith comes before works

and that theif on the cross next to Jesus only had faith

you can say he repented on the cross in heart


but what works did he have?

i dont think any


but all of us are in different situations and will be judged righteously

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

there are over 33,000 verses in the Bible. just posting random verses, with no context, is just noise.

you speaking on it is just noise
same with me

the verses always contain truth and are of importance

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

im not saying works justify

just posted some scripture


i do feel faith comes before works

and that theif on the cross next to Jesus only had faith

you can say he repented on the cross in heart


but what works did he have?

i dont think any


but all of us are in different situations and will be judged righteously

when i say comes before

i mean there wont be any good works in you without faith

and also faith in Jesus is what saves not works


but its pretty clear many use this as their get outta hell free card to keep sinning and decieve them selfs

 

[Chris1975]

when i say comes before

i mean there wont be any good works in you without faith

and also faith in Jesus is what saves not works


but its pretty clear many use this as their get outta hell free card to keep sinning and decieve them selfs

Read these words below. Carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[SUP][d][/SUP] who now restrains will do so until He[SUP][e][/SUP] is taken out of the way. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Ariel82]

Why do people use such extremes like this to try and prove their point.

Firstly I want to say anything that falls short of God's standard is sin. We grade sin but God does not. In the eyes of God rape is a sin, to not honour your mother and father is a sin, and so on.

It is not my job to consider whether one is righteous. That is Gods call and not mine.

It amazes me that people ask questions like you do, they also say murder.

To me it's like setting a snare to prove my point correct and yours wrong.

A Christian is someone who has placed thier genuine faith in Jesus and wants to be like him, follow him, listen to him.

Then we have a voice only Christian. Over here in the UK people will call themselves Christians.

Why? The reason is because they live in where the main faith is Christianity.

In a recent survey people were asked what religious identity do you hold?
The majority said "Christian"
When further drilled down the majority when asked "Do you believe in Jesus? The majority said NO.

Therefore they are not Christians, followers of Jesus.

So if you don't mind I would encourage you to not pose such ridiculous extremes in order to try to prove others wrong and you right.

It seems to be a question asked by both "sides' of the debate.

Just found this thread. Glad to see you already in it Brother Bill.

 

[Ariel82]

im not saying works justify

just posted some scripture


i do feel faith comes before works

and that theif on the cross next to Jesus only had faith

you can say he repented on the cross in heart


but what works did he have?

i dont think any


but all of us are in different situations and will be judged righteously

It is a work to believe in Christ as your savior.

All good works are by God's power. The power of God transforms the heart and minds of His people. that is a good work.

Goods works are internal changes in our hearts and minds so that we more clearly reflect God's light into our lives and the lives of others.

The external works such as our words, acts of compassion or mercy, are based upon the internal good works God has done within us.

Most people will argue with me though.

Folks like to claim "their good works" instead of give glory to God who does those good works through them.

 

[Ariel82]

morning Jaime nice to see you again.

Gotta do chores and such. Catch y'all later.

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

morning Jaime nice to see you again.

Gotta do chores and such. Catch y'all later.

mornin

hope your day is going well