Are we justified by works?
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Hi thanks for the reply
The word in vs 7 is blaspheme. To blaspheme is to contribute the work of one to another. It is why we are commanded not to have the work of Christ’s faith that works in us in respect to any other than Christ in the opening declaration.
The spoken evil is in respect to violating the first commandment not to have other gods before him and that includes one self. That would define blasphemy, I beleive
987 blasphemeo {blas-fay-meh'-o}
from 989; TDNT - 1:621,107; v
AV - blaspheme 17, speak evil of 10, rail on 2, blasphemer 1, speak blasphemy 1, blasphemously 1, misc 3; 35
1) to speak reproachfully, rail at, revile, calumniate, blaspheme 2) to be evil spoken of, reviled, railed at
Do you have a scripture that states that we have God's faith somehow?
It comes by hearing God, called the hearing of faith, as he gives us ears to hear him who has no form we can beleive.
What if some do not believe (execise faith . Will that make the faith of God without effect.
For what if some did not believe shall their unbelief make the “faith of God” without effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Rom 3:3
The faith of God seems like something new for some. But without His faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure no man clould believe God. We walk by his faith that works in us.
You say you've studied the difference between our faith and the faith of Christ. I highlighted it above.
Christ has faith? In what? He's God, He doesn't need faith.
One of my favorite subjects. its where the rubber hits the road ,I believe
I think I'll stop here because I'm a bit baffled, to tell you the truth.
Sorry for the confusion I hope what I offered helps in some way?
Faith (believing) with nothing to show, no evidence) has no life to create. Our faithful Creator believed something would occur and he exercised (worked )it out to make it posible :"and there was light" He indicated he believed there would be.
If God did not need Faith (believe before he created/ worked He would not be called a faithful Creator.
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
We are saved by His faith that he freely bestows on us. It belongs to us but is not of us.
2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
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Hi Garee
I'm in a different time zone and it's really late here.
I read the above.
You must have been a Christian for many years because you know a lot of concepts.
I just fear that they're a little bit mixed up.
Is it OK with you if I go through your comments Tomorrow morning and use some scripture to see if I've undrstood you?
I really would like to know what bible you're using. I have many and I don't see the word blaspheme for your verse.
Just curious. If you'd rather not say, that's fine.
Tomorrow...
I'm in a different time zone and it's really late here.
I read the above.
You must have been a Christian for many years because you know a lot of concepts.
I just fear that they're a little bit mixed up.
Is it OK with you if I go through your comments Tomorrow morning and use some scripture to see if I've undrstood you?
I really would like to know what bible you're using. I have many and I don't see the word blaspheme for your verse.
Just curious. If you'd rather not say, that's fine.
Tomorrow...
Salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth, whereby we are brought into union with God, which is Christ in us the hope of glory. Justification is not disconnected from sanctification because justification pertains faithfulness and fidelity to God.
In other words, when an individual approaches God with a true heart, broken and contrite, with the root of rebellion having been put to death, then God refreshes the spirit of that individual by the power of His Spirit, this dynamic bringing about a total union with God in the Spirit.
This is what the Bible teaches, we are literally made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ, an actual manifest experience by which we experience a full knowledge of God.
In other words, when an individual approaches God with a true heart, broken and contrite, with the root of rebellion having been put to death, then God refreshes the spirit of that individual by the power of His Spirit, this dynamic bringing about a total union with God in the Spirit.
This is what the Bible teaches, we are literally made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ, an actual manifest experience by which we experience a full knowledge of God.
The idea of "faith alone" is rooted in the idea of a POSITIONAL SALVATION. A positional salvation was taught by the Catholics yet they depended upon sacrament system and membership in their universal church to have it appropriated.
Luther simply reinvented that false teaching by removing the Catholic institution and inserting "dogmatic belief" in its place. Luther helped develop Penal Substitution whereby the issue between man and God is purely forensic, with the Penal model being the basis for reconciliation. Thus FAITH ALONE in the cosmic transaction of substitution is the basis for salvation under the Lutheran framework.
That is where "faith alone" comes from. It is very deceptive.
Luther simply reinvented that false teaching by removing the Catholic institution and inserting "dogmatic belief" in its place. Luther helped develop Penal Substitution whereby the issue between man and God is purely forensic, with the Penal model being the basis for reconciliation. Thus FAITH ALONE in the cosmic transaction of substitution is the basis for salvation under the Lutheran framework.
That is where "faith alone" comes from. It is very deceptive.
Hi,
I've found that most persons here do not understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Chrstianity is difficult to understand if these two concepts are not understood fully.
You've explained them well. I'd like to add this:
Justification is totally a work of God. We are made just in His sight. We are right with God through HIS desire and grace. There is nothing we can do to justify ourselves. This is salvation and sactification.
Sanctification is a work that is a coooperation between man and God. Our good works are combined with God's desire for us to do His will and with the help of the Holy Spirit we do those good works.
I've found that most persons here do not understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Chrstianity is difficult to understand if these two concepts are not understood fully.
You've explained them well. I'd like to add this:
Justification is totally a work of God. We are made just in His sight. We are right with God through HIS desire and grace. There is nothing we can do to justify ourselves. This is salvation and sactification.
Sanctification is a work that is a coooperation between man and God. Our good works are combined with God's desire for us to do His will and with the help of the Holy Spirit we do those good works.
The Penal Substitution model is a development of Anselm's Satisfaction model developed in the 12th century. Thomas Aquinus added the idea of a "satisfactory punishment" being universally applied in order to "pay the price" for sin. Later it was the Reformers who introduced judicial language to these ideas and the Penal Substitution model was born.
All the substitution models are unbiblical and erroneous.
I simply believe what the Bible plainly teaches. Jesus died for the cause of purging our conscience of dead works in order that we may serve the living God.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
When a human being rebels against God it defiles the conscience and even a return to obedience cannot remove the consciousness of sins. Thus under the Old Covenant people would measure themselves outwardly according to rite, ritual, rule and regulation. An outward focus is dead because true life is only wrought through the Spirit.
The blood of bulls and goats could not remove a consciousness of sin in an individual because it was purely an outward mechanic, ie. a ritualistic process. The real issue being the heart, and not some legal adjustment.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
With Jesus Christ the dynamic involves a total renovation of the inward man as we enter into covenant with God via the blood. Hence we read...
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
The result of this produces this...
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Instead of outward comparison to rules and regulations like with the Old Covenant, we are inwardly refreshed with the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. Thus we walk by a faith that works by love which fulfills the righteousness of the law, hence we are no longer under the law for the law is obsolete for those whom have been made righteous in Christ.
The core of Jesus message was...
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Thus we find union with God through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. That is the Gospel. Not some magical legal transfer as is taught under substitution theology.
I'll send you a free book which I wrote on the subject if you like, it examines this subject in a historical context and demonstrates how the modern theological teaches slowly developed over time. Modern professing Christianity is far removed from what early Christianity taught.
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The Grace of God restores us to the image of God in which we were originally created to be. The core of the law is love the very character or image of God. Thus to have the love of God which is freely given in Christ by Grace can do no other than bring fourth obedience to the law.
Its not obedience that saves but rather is a simple outcome of the free salvation in Christ. That is why justification is by faith Yet without works faith is dead. You can't have Gods love and not love it just can't be.
Its not obedience that saves but rather is a simple outcome of the free salvation in Christ. That is why justification is by faith Yet without works faith is dead. You can't have Gods love and not love it just can't be.
You are disconnecting "obedience" from "faith." That is why you say that "Its not obedience that saves."
Obedience does save because obedience involves YIELDING. Only a YIELDING HEART can RECEIVE THE IMPLANTED WORD.
The implanted word is what saves the soul and only an obedience heart can receive it. Receiving and rebellion are opposites, a rebellious heart cannot receive the implanted word because a rebellious heart is rejecting it.
This is a very simple concept to understand.
James described it thus...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Wickedness MUST be laid aside in order that one receive the engrafted word. RECEIVING is the same as DOING in this context. In other words one YIELDS to the divine influence of God upon their heart and ABIDES in that influence. A genuine Christian has given themselves over to the influence of God having crucified their old life of rebellion in repentance.
Paul described it like this...
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Without "obedience from the heart" there is no "freedom from sin" and thus no "service of righteousness."
Works don't follow faith, faith and works are connected together, two sides of the same coin. Genuine faith is representative of a heart condition that governs action, hence the faithful are ALWAYS doers of the will of God and thus their deeds are done in God, just as the Bible teaches.
The real reason as to why "faith" and "works" are disconnected in modern theology is because of the false teaching os substitution which presents the "death of Christ" in a "legal adjustment" context. Thus "faith alone" is "faith in the legal adjustment." Any "action" done by a human being is necessarily disconnected from the "judicial legal adjustment" provided by Jesus on the Cross under substitution theology, whether that theology be Arminian, Reformed, or Governmental.
Obedience does save because obedience involves YIELDING. Only a YIELDING HEART can RECEIVE THE IMPLANTED WORD.
The implanted word is what saves the soul and only an obedience heart can receive it. Receiving and rebellion are opposites, a rebellious heart cannot receive the implanted word because a rebellious heart is rejecting it.
This is a very simple concept to understand.
James described it thus...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Wickedness MUST be laid aside in order that one receive the engrafted word. RECEIVING is the same as DOING in this context. In other words one YIELDS to the divine influence of God upon their heart and ABIDES in that influence. A genuine Christian has given themselves over to the influence of God having crucified their old life of rebellion in repentance.
Paul described it like this...
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Without "obedience from the heart" there is no "freedom from sin" and thus no "service of righteousness."
Works don't follow faith, faith and works are connected together, two sides of the same coin. Genuine faith is representative of a heart condition that governs action, hence the faithful are ALWAYS doers of the will of God and thus their deeds are done in God, just as the Bible teaches.
The real reason as to why "faith" and "works" are disconnected in modern theology is because of the false teaching os substitution which presents the "death of Christ" in a "legal adjustment" context. Thus "faith alone" is "faith in the legal adjustment." Any "action" done by a human being is necessarily disconnected from the "judicial legal adjustment" provided by Jesus on the Cross under substitution theology, whether that theology be Arminian, Reformed, or Governmental.
An analogy would be a "lie" and the "truth."
One cannot be "telling a lie" and at the same time be "telling the truth." It is one or the other.
One cannot be wet and dry, fat and thin, outwardly clean and outwardly dirty.
Receiving and rebellion are opposites.
Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is the opposite to rebellion and walking according to the lusts of the flesh. The latter must cease before the former can exist.
Faith is inclusive of obedience.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
One cannot be "telling a lie" and at the same time be "telling the truth." It is one or the other.
One cannot be wet and dry, fat and thin, outwardly clean and outwardly dirty.
Receiving and rebellion are opposites.
Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is the opposite to rebellion and walking according to the lusts of the flesh. The latter must cease before the former can exist.
Faith is inclusive of obedience.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
What is the form of doctrine delivered?
It is the doctrine according to godliness.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Doctrine means instruction.
doctrine - didaskalia - G1319 (Strong's)
From G1320; instruction (the function or the information): - doctrine, learning, teaching.
Grace teaches...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Grace saves by teaching us what to do. Yet that saving is only effectual if we DO IT.
Jesus taught...
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
HEARING AND DOING.
Faith is inclusive of both hearing and doing. Doing does not come later, it is immediate because FAITH DOES. Faith is an active principle hence the "work of faith."
2Th_1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Faith is a "work with power" because it involves YIELDING TO GOD whom is the ultimate power. Hence "saved by grace through faith" is speaking of the dynamic of yielding to the divine influence of God upon the heart, the result of which is being a new creation in Christ (2Cor 5:17).
That is what the Bible teaches very clearly.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
What is the form of doctrine delivered?
It is the doctrine according to godliness.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Doctrine means instruction.
doctrine - didaskalia - G1319 (Strong's)
From G1320; instruction (the function or the information): - doctrine, learning, teaching.
Grace teaches...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Grace saves by teaching us what to do. Yet that saving is only effectual if we DO IT.
Jesus taught...
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
HEARING AND DOING.
Faith is inclusive of both hearing and doing. Doing does not come later, it is immediate because FAITH DOES. Faith is an active principle hence the "work of faith."
2Th_1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Faith is a "work with power" because it involves YIELDING TO GOD whom is the ultimate power. Hence "saved by grace through faith" is speaking of the dynamic of yielding to the divine influence of God upon the heart, the result of which is being a new creation in Christ (2Cor 5:17).
That is what the Bible teaches very clearly.
Revelation 2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich);
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“I know your works, love, service, faith,[SUP][b][/SUP] and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.
Revelation 3
1 ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot.
So these are our works. And they are either godly works, or ungodly works (as can be seen above). This is the gold, wood, hay, etc.
Philippians 2:13New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
The godly works are prompted by God. But we are to DO them.
John 9:4New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I[SUP][a][/SUP] must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.
And God will judge these works.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
God cannot judge Himself as He is perfect. God wills for you to do good works. He will judge based on whether you got onboard with the plan.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich);
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“I know your works, love, service, faith,[SUP][b][/SUP] and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.
Revelation 3
1 ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot.
So these are our works. And they are either godly works, or ungodly works (as can be seen above). This is the gold, wood, hay, etc.
Philippians 2:13New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
The godly works are prompted by God. But we are to DO them.
John 9:4New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I[SUP][a][/SUP] must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.
And God will judge these works.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
God cannot judge Himself as He is perfect. God wills for you to do good works. He will judge based on whether you got onboard with the plan.
Jesus saves us from....
a) the penalty of sin - by justification (the moment we believed)
b) the power of sin - sanctification (the working out of what was done on the inside to our behaviour on the outside. Old man to New man).
c) the presence of sin - glorification (one day we will be in heaven with the Lord permanently, and there will be no more temptation for we have overcome).
A believer who doesn't believe in the necessity of sanctification, i.e. Jesus as Savior but not Jesus as Lord.......doesn't have Jesus at all.
a) the penalty of sin - by justification (the moment we believed)
b) the power of sin - sanctification (the working out of what was done on the inside to our behaviour on the outside. Old man to New man).
c) the presence of sin - glorification (one day we will be in heaven with the Lord permanently, and there will be no more temptation for we have overcome).
A believer who doesn't believe in the necessity of sanctification, i.e. Jesus as Savior but not Jesus as Lord.......doesn't have Jesus at all.