Are We Really Predestined?

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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
God showed them how to offer the fruit of their labours to Him. It was an offering (a mincha) NOT a sacrifice. It was an act of praise and gratitude. We CANNOT HONESTLY read back into it later offerings and sacrifices. It was NOT a picture of Christ's sacrifice.
No matter how hard you try to totally separate the "minchah" from being a type of Christ's sacrifice, you'll never be able to do the same. In Exodus, we read:

"Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering. And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD." (Exodus 29:38-41)

Again:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savour unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season. And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering. The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even; And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil. It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD." (Numbers 28:1-6)

That you don't see a connection between these lambs "without spot" and Jesus Who was foreordained to be the Lamb of God "without spot" before the foundation of the world is sad indeed. In the following 5 places in the Old Testament, this evening "sacrifice" is the "minchah":

"And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice (minchah), that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded." (I Kings 18:29, parentheses mine)

"And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice (minchah), that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word." (I Kings 18:36, parentheses mine)

"Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice (minchah). And at the evening sacrifice (minchah) I arose up from my heaviness; and having rent my garment and my mantle, I fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the LORD my God." (Ezra 9:4-5, parentheses mine)

"Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice (minchah)." (Psalm 141:2, parentheses mine)


Again, this "evening sacrifice" or this "evening minchah" was a lamb "without spot"...just like Christ was foreordained to be:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (I Peter 1:18-21)
 
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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Yes and the whole point was that it was a new Gospel based on new events. It was not faith in the good news of Christ that was spoken of in the Old Testament. Faith there was faith in the ONE GOD YHWH. You are reading back into the Old Testament what is not there. Careless exegesis.
The one who is incapable of proper exegesis is you. Contrary to your claims, Paul derived his gospel directly from the Old Testament and he said so himself right here:

"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above); Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:6-10)

"The word of faith" which Paul preached was derived exactly from what Moses said to the Israelites way back in the times of the book of Deuteronomy:

"For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." (Deuteronomy 30:11-14)

Yes, in stark contrast to your latest error, Paul preached the same exact gospel that Moses preached and IT WASN'T HIDDEN FROM THEM, NEITHER WAS IT FAR OFF. In fact, it was VERY NIGH OR NEAR THEM AND IN THEIR MOUTHS AND IN THEIR HEARTS THAT THEY MIGHT DO IT. Of course, according to heretics like yourself, this is all false. Yep, according to heretics like you, these people were "predestined" to hell with no possibility whatsoever of ever actually obeying God.

Go and repent before God and then come back here and apologize to everybody if you're any sort of man and if you genuinely have any sort of heart towards either God or man. Until now, you've been doing nothing but the work of the devil here. Repent before God calls you into account for the same.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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I've been hearing a lot this past week about being chosen by God, for those of us who lack confidence and self-worth it's pretty amazing to think that He thinks us special enough to have singled us out for salvation, above others we see as somehow superior, or better than ourselves.

Personally I don't think I can believe we are chosen, if it were so that would mean that the unsaved were always predestined for Hell...now the God I know would hardly do that - would He? If God has pre-chosen some and not others where is the choice in that? That isn't free will is it! Also what would be the point in reaching out to the unsaved if ultimately the outcome has already been decided? Despite my misgivings though it does seem like God is speaking to me through what I'm hearing and seeing and that he would seem to be saying I have been chosen..

I'd be interested to gauge others' views on this important predestination topic because a lot gets talked about on the OSAS topic yet this one seems to be a neglected topic.
We are judged by our merits, not a preconceived notion. Would it be just to do otherwise, and is the Lord not just?
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
We are judged by our merits, not a preconceived notion. Would it be just to do otherwise, and is the Lord not just?
Yes, God is just and He's the justifier of them who believe in Jesus:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26)


Sad to say, there are many, including some here on this very thread, who would have us to believe that God "predestined" people to hell without them truly ever having had the opportunity to believe and they call this "justice". Oh, in their convoluted minds, they'll inevitably say, "Hey, but God is just in that He's punishing them for their sins!" Of course, what they fail to realize is that by their own warped ideology their "god" is the one who actually "predestined" them to be sinners and he therefore ought to banish himself to hell if he has any true justice whatsoever.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Those who are elect according to God's forechoosing (1 Pet 1.2).
Liar.

Peter spoke of "foreknowledge" and not of "forechoosing":

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (I Peter 1:2)

If you're foolish enough to seek to argue the word used here from the Greek, then I'll happily go there as well and further demonstrate your folly that none here might be misled by you. Furthermore, Peter did a terrific job of explaining what being "elected" or being "chosen" is really all about (and it has nothing to do with the heretical nonsense that you and others here are espousing) when he wrote:

"Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (I Peter 2:1-10)

When Peter said that the Lord is "disallowed indeed of men" or "the stone which the builders disallowed" although it "is made the head of the corner", he was quoting from Psalm 118 where we read:

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (Psalm 118:22-23)

This "head stone of the corner" or this "chief cornerstone", of course, is none other than Jesus Christ. Jesus said:

"Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." (Matthew 21:33-46)

Jesus' parable was taken directly from Isaiah 5:1-7 and the chief priests and Pharisees understood that it was spoken in relation to the children of Israel, "the builders", who constantly "REJECTED" Christ Who is "the head of the corner" or "the chief cornerstone" by not only "REJECTING" the "servants" whom He sent unto them or the prophets, even as Stephen noted of those who "ALWAYS RESISTED THE HOLY GHOST",...

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it." (Acts 7:51-53)

...but by also ultimately "REJECTING" God's Son, Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is "the chief cornerstone" and He said that everyone is going to respond to Him in one of two ways:

1. Some will "fall on this stone and be broken" or some will come to Him in humble repentance and be saved.
2. Some will REJECT Christ and He will ultimately "fall on them and grind them to powder".

This "stone" is the focus of what we are reading in I Peter chapter 2 and I'll return there now. Peter also said that this "stone", Christ, is "CHOSEN OF GOD and precious" (I Peter 2:4) or "ELECT, precious" (I Peter 2:6) and he was quoting from Isaiah when he wrote the same:

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law." (Isaiah 42:1-4)

Yes, here is where Peter got the "elect" or "chosen" part from in relation to Christ and this is in relation to Christ:

"But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Matthew 12:15-21)

Yes, Jesus Christ is God's "elect" or God's "chosen" Whom Isaiah wrote about and Whom Peter wrote about as well. Here, then, is where Peter got the "precious" (I Peter 2:6) part in relation to this "stone" or in relation to Christ:

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." (Isaiah 28:9-16)

Yes, when Peter said, "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (I Peter 2:6), he was quoting directly from this portion of Isaiah. Let's pause here to examine this in its actual context so that we can properly understand exactly what Peter was trying to convey to us. For starters, Jesus is obviously "the precious corner stone" being spoken of, but many, according to this prophecy, were going to willfully reject Him. Why? Well, for one thing, "they WOULD NOT hear" and NOT "they COULD NOT hear" what was spoken to them in relation to "the rest" or in relation to "the refreshing" or in relation to that which was spoken to them regarding "stammering lips and another tongue" or to the gift of speaking in tongues as described for us further in the New Testament. This is not merely my interpretation, but this is what the Apostle Paul taught in his letter to the Corinthians:

"In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe." (I Corinthians 14:21-22)

Yes, according to the Apostle Paul, these "other tongues and other lips" were rejected by those who "WILL NOT hear the Lord" or by those who "believe not". Well, what then was chosen by those who reject the same? THE LAW. Yes, when Isaiah wrote of those who chose "precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little", he was speaking of those who would seek justification via THE LAW and who would therefore "go and fall backward and be broken and snared and taken" or those who would stumble over the "stone of stumbling and rock of offense" (I Peter 2:8) or those who would stumble over Christ. Peter again quoted Isaiah:

"Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken." (Isaiah 8:13-15)

Because of their desire to seek justification via the works of the law as opposed to seeking the same via faith in Christ, the One to Whom the law and the prophets point, many Jews stumbled over "the stone of stumbling and the rock of offense" or stumbled over Jesus Christ. Paul wrote in the oft-butchered 9th chapter of Romans:

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:22-33)

By seeking righteousness or justification "by the works of the law" and "not by faith" in Christ, many Israelites "stumbled at that stumblingstone, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed". Like Peter (I Peter 2:10), Paul here cited "Osee" or Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 in regard to those who were once not God's people becoming God's people and in regard to those who were once not beloved becoming God's beloved and this was a reference to believing Gentiles who would be grafted into Christ. Peter told these believing Gentiles "ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (I Peter 2:9-10) and this takes us all the way back to Exodus:

"And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." (Exodus 19:3-6)

From the outset, it was those who "WILL obey the LORD's voice and keep His covenant" who would be accounted as being "a peculiar treasure" or "a peculiar people" (I Peter 2:9) and a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" or "a royal priesthood, a holy nation" (I Peter 2:9). Don't miss the fact that God's initial desire for Israel was that they would be "a kingdom of priests". Why then was only the tribe of Levi "chosen" for the priesthood? Well, you can read about that in Exodus chapter 32 where they were the only tribe who stepped forth to "be on the LORD's side" after the incident concerning the golden calf.

Well, there you have it...in a nutshell:

Jesus is God's "elect" or God's "chosen" and He is "the chief cornerstone". Some, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICES, will "fall on Him and be broken" and be saved whereas others, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICES, will "stumble over Him" by seeking justification via "the works of the law" and will ultimately have Jesus "fall on them and grind them to powder". The first group is "elect" or "chosen" IN HIM and not because of any alleged "predestination" on God's part where He allegedly hand-picked them for salvation apart from their own free will choices. The second group will have nobody to blame in the end but themselves in that God's desire was that they, too, would be a part of His "kingdom of priests", but they refused His "rest" and they refused His "refreshing" in that they "REJECTED the chief cornerstone" and sought justification "by the works of the law" instead. THIS is what the Bible actually teaches and if nothing else, then I hope that I've at least provoked some here to start examining the "proof texts" which we've been given by both the Lord and His apostles that we might learn to rightly divide His Word.

(Continued in the next post)
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
(Continued from the previous post)

Somebody will object and say, "Hold on! What about this?":

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (I Peter 2:7-8)

IOW, somebody will inevitably insist that this "whereunto also they were appointed" part proves that God allegedly "predestined" some to damnation, but that's not what Peter was saying here at all. Both Peter and Paul referred to this "stumblingblock" and Paul elaborated for us what this means in his epistle to the Romans. Please pay close attention here because if you understand what I'm about to show you, then this whole "predestination" thing ought to be put to rest for you once and for all:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." (Romans 11:11-36)

Here, Paul addressed two different groups of people:

1. The aforementioned Jews who have "stumbled over the stumblingstone" of Christ by seeking justification "by the works of the law" as opposed to seeking the same "by faith" in Christ.
2. The believing Gentiles who have been "grafted in" due to their faith in Christ.

Here's my question for you:

If either group was "predestined" unto the same WITHOUT ANY ALLEGED FREE WILL CHOICES OF THEIR OWN, then why can the statuses of both groups change?

Paul not only said that the first group, the unbelieving Jews who "stumbled", can be grafted back into the olive tree if they don't continue in unbelief, but he also warned the second group, the believing Gentiles, that they would be cut off if they didn't continue in God's goodness.

Friends, our salvation is directly in relation to the choices which we make in regard to Jesus Christ. If we willfully choose to abide in Him, then we are saved. If we willfully choose to not abide in Him, then we are lost. It's really that simple. Those who "stumble over the stumblingstone" of Christ are "appointed" unto judgment because of their "unbelief" and "disobedience" just as both Peter and Paul taught. If they repent and believe and obey, then they are "appointed" unto salvation. God puts life and death before us and then He tells us to choose life:

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Nobody and I mean NOBODY was "predestined" for either salvation or damnation apart from their own free will choices or apart from what they willfully chose to do with Jesus Christ. Again, we'll either willfully "fall on Him and be broken" or He'll "fall on us and grind us to powder" because we've willfully rejected Him. May God open everybody's eyes to these truths and may everybody here start examining "proof texts" so that we might know what God is actually trying to convey to us through His Word and through His apostles.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
But that is a new concept being preached in the New Testament. It was not what Habakkuk had in mind when he said 'the just shall live by faith'. Habakkuk was thinking of faith in the ONE GOD YHWH. If you had mentioned Christ he would not have had a clue what you meant.
Says you in your stubborn, willful ignorance. I've already shown you, even though you've willfully shut your eyes to the same and willfully hardened your heart to the same, that people like David spoke of God's "anointed" (Psalm 2:2) or God's "Christ" and how that David even called Christ "Lord" (Psalm 110:1).

Those on whom He has chosen to have mercy (Rom 9.15-16). It is not of him who wills, nor of him who does, but of GOD Who shows mercy.
Gee, you think? And upon whom does God show mercy? According to Jesus, God shows mercy upon the one who says, "Be merciful unto me a sinner" (Luke 18:13) as has already been explained to you.

God showed it to them, but I doubt if many of them understood it. They are without excuse because they SHOULD have understood it if their minds had been open.
This would be funny if it wasn't so mind-bogglingly pathetic. "They SHOULD have understood it if their minds had been open"? According to your heresy, God is the One Who shut their minds, so they could not possibly have ever been open! Of course, God's Word teaches differently...not that God's Word means anything to you.

An interesting use of the word know which must be interpreted in the light of verse 19. They knew ABOUT God. They had a certain head knowledge. But they had no real knowledge of Him.
Sigh...

Here's the text:

"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." (Romans 1:21-23)

If "they had no real knowledge of Him" as you suggest, then how did they change His uncorruptible glory into the corruptible glory of men, birds, beasts and creeping things? What about the children of Israel? When God thundered His voice unto them from Mt. Sinai, do you suppose that they might have "known" Him? Not long after, they built a golden calf. Those of whom Paul was speaking "BECAME vain", which indicates that they weren't always vain, and "had their foolish hearts DARKENED", which indicates that they had at least some semblance of light initially.

Yes they knew about Him but had no desire to retain that knowledge in their minds.
Which is precisely why "they are without excuse".

Well yes He did, and He did so on ANY viewpoint. For He knew from the beginning who would reject Him. So He created them knowing that they were doomed. If that is not predestination I do not know what is. If predestination condemns God (and I do not believe that it does) then God would stand condemned on ANY view. He made them knowing that they would not believe. How then could he blame them?
How can you not know what it is when you just said what it is yourself? It's FOREKNOWLEDGE and not PREDESTINATION. If I told my neighbor that a bus is leaving from Pennsylvania to New York in two hours and I had foreknowledge that he wasn't going to get on that bus, does that mean that I "predestined" him not to get on the bus? No. It simply means that I had advanced knowledge or foreknowledge of THE WILLFUL CHOICE that he would make. The bus itself is "predestined" to go from Pennsylvania to New York and WHOEVER WILLFULLY BOARDS THE SAME IS PREDESTINED TO THE SAME LOCATION. Is this above your ability to reason? Seemingly, it is.

You should read the Scripture more carefully and discerningly. They did not know Him and the truth. They knew about Him and about the truth. Besides no one that I know of suggests that they did not turn from Him by a willful decision. Of course they did. All men turned from Him by a willful decision. What they could not do because of their sinfulness was turn TOWARDS HIM by a willful decision. Willful gives the game away. Man is willful and as he is in himself rejects God willfuly.
Oh, the irony!

"Mr. I can't understand anything in the Bible" is now giving out Biblical advice. Too funny. The children of Israel saw the plagues, passed through the Red Sea, had God speak directly to them from Mt. Sinai, were fed manna from heaven, drank water out of a rock, etc., etc., etc. and you'd have me/us to believe that they could not turn TOWARDS HIM by a willful decision even though God told them to CHOOSE LIFE?!? You're a mess, friend. Seriously, just go and repent before God.

Beware. God will judge you for calling Him the devil!!!!
No, I call the false "god" whom you and others apparently believe in "the devil" because that's exactly who he is. Renounce him and find salvation in Christ.

Amen! Depart you eviltalker!!
God help you and anybody foolish enough to listen to you and the false "god" for whom you speak.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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No matter how hard you try to totally separate the "minchah" from being a type of Christ's sacrifice, you'll never be able to do the same. In Exodus, we read:
But Exodus is thousands of years after Abel. You cannot read back into Abel the advanced sacrificial systems of Exodus. Thus your case collapses before it starts. You unscriptural people treat Scripture like a jigsaw.

I will not waste my time on the false manipulations of the Exodus narrative!!!!
 
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JesusistheChrist

Guest
But Exodus is thousands of years after Abel. You cannot read back into Abel the advanced sacrificial systems of Exodus. Thus your case collapses before it stars. You unscriptural people treat Scripture like a jigsaw.
And Christ was "foreordained" to be a "spotless lamb" before the foundation of the world" (I Peter 1:19-20) and long before Abel ever appeared on the scene. Unlike you, I prefer to start not only at "the beginning" in relation to Genesis, but even before that "beginning" by looking at and considering the eternal plans and purposes of God in Christ Jesus. Btw, if by "jigsaw" you meant a "jigsaw puzzle", then I unashamedly admit that I do look at the Bible in precisely that manner. When I did jigsaw puzzles as a child, I'd regularly look to the finished result on the box cover to see what the puzzle was supposed to look like when completed and also to aid me in finding where certain pieces fit in by matching them up to the picture on the box cover. "In the volume of the book is it written of me" (Psalm 40:7) with the "me" being Jesus. IOW, in essence, Jesus is the picture that we see when we look at the box cover and every piece is related to Him in some manner or another and that certainly includes the sacrifices which were made which includes the evening sacrifice or the "minchah" of the "spotless lamb". If you don't see a correlation between this "spotless lamb" and Christ the "spotless lamb" Who was "foreordained before the foundation" of the world because, according to your own unscriptural reasoning that you just finished falsely accusing me of, we can never look backwards, then I suppose that you also don't see a correlation between Christ and the Passover lamb because the Passover lamb came first in linear history. Seriously, friend, just go and repent before God. Nothing that you've been saying here is right and that ought to concern you. God knows that it concerns me and that is why I'm not only seeking to show you the folly and error of your ways by confronting you with scripture, but also why I'm praying for you as well.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Wait!...this just in:

I will not waste my time on the false manipulations of the Exodus narrative!!!!
Friend, you've been doing nothing other than manipulating the entirety of scripture in your involvement on this thread. Again, go and repent and get right before God. You can start by renouncing the ABDUCTING, RAPING AND IMPRISONING "god" whom you champion and by embracing the One True God of the Bible instead.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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Says you in your stubborn, willful ignorance. I've already shown you, even though you've willfully shut your eyes to the same and willfully hardened your heart to the same, that people like David spoke of God's "anointed" (Psalm 2:2) or God's "Christ" and how that David even called Christ "Lord" (Psalm 110:1).
What has David to do with what Abel believed? You talk through your hat. Besides God's anointed in Psalm 2.2 was David. No one who sang that before the exile Psalm even dreamed of the Messiah. You are simply ignorant.

As to Psalm 110 David was not referring to the Messiah. He was talking about the coming king of the house of David (2 Sam 7.16). At that stage the idea of the Messiah had not even been dreamed of. WE may equate the two. David certainly did not.
As usual you twist the Scriptures.

Gee, you think? And upon whom does God show mercy? According to Jesus, God shows mercy upon the one who says, "Be merciful unto me a sinner" (Luke 18:13) as has already been explained to you.
I don't need your foolish explanations where you take verses out of context. No one doubts that men must repent (change their minds) in order to find mercy. But IN CONTEXT 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy' (Exod 33.19; Rom 9.16) is a statement of God's soverign power to have mercy on whom He wills. As verse 18 says, 'He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.' And that this does not mean that He is restricted by your ideas comes out in the following verses which would never have arisen if your explanation was true. When reading Scripture you have to try to use your intelligence, But you are not seeking truth. You are trying to make your own truth. So you close your eyes to anything inconvenient.

This would be funny if it wasn't so mind-bogglingly pathetic. "They SHOULD have understood it if their minds had been open"? According to your heresy, God is the One Who shut their minds, so they could not possibly have ever been open!
With your small mind you do not even understand what I teach. Nowhere have I said that God closes their minds. He does not need to. Having sinned man closed his own mind. So why should God shut their minds? What He does do according to Scripture is harden their hearts (Mark 4.12; Rom 9.18; 11.7-8).
Of course, God's Word teaches differently...not that God's Word means anything to you.
That is gratuitously insulting. Especially coming from someone who closes his mind to what God's word really says. I have discussed with many people on this site, but none as despicable in your comments as YOU. Your words make clear that Satan is manipulating you. Get you behind me, Satan.

.

In your condition you need to sigh. May the Christ Whom you misrepresent have mercy on your soul.
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
I requested this thread be closed, the mods seem to have decided to keep it open. Elf3 told me he is no longer going to respond but still it drags on...
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
What has David to do with what Abel believed?
Yet more deception on your part. Here is what you said and what I responded to:

valiant said:
But that is a new concept being preached in the New Testament. It was not what Habakkuk had in mind when he said 'the just shall live by faith'. Habakkuk was thinking of faith in the ONE GOD YHWH. If you had mentioned Christ he would not have had a clue what you meant.
Why has Habakkuk suddenly been switched to Abel? Take your deceptive practices elsewhere, friend.

valiant said:
You talk through your hat.
Again, how ironic.

valiant said:
Besides God's anointed in Psalm 2.2 was David. No one who sang that before the exile Psalm even dreamed of the Messiah. You are simply ignorant.
Again, the willful ignorance is on your part. Here is what the apostles said:

"And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:23-28)

Here is what they were referring to:

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying," (Psalm 2:1-2)

The "anointed" of whom David spoke was not David as you falsely allege, but the "anointed" of whom David spoke was CHRIST...as God's apostles knew and as Luke recorded for us. Will you willfully shut your eyes and willfully harden your heart to this obvious truth again? Sadly, I expect that you will.

valiant said:
As to Psalm 110 David was not referring to the Messiah. He was talking about the coming king of the house of David (2 Sam 7.16). At that stage the idea of the Messiah had not even been dreamed of. WE may equate the two. David certainly did not.
As usual you twist the Scriptures.
Well, Jesus certainly believed that David, "in spirit", was referring to the Messiah:

"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions." (Matthew 22:41-46)

According to Jesus, David, "in spirit", called CHRIST LORD. According to Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, David was a prophet who knew that God had sworn unto him with an oath that He would raise up CHRIST to sit on his throne:

"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" (Acts 2:30)

According to you, however, David was allegedly clueless. Have you noticed how that you regularly project your own ignorant and clueless condition unto others? I've noticed it. Anyhow, Peter also had this to say about Old Testament prophets like David who had the Spirit of Christ in them:

"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." (I Peter 1:10-12)

According to the apostle of the Lord, ALL OF THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS "searched diligently" in relation to "what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ". According to you, however, they were all clueless. How can such a discrepancy exist? Easy. You're ignorant and apparently willfully so. As such, again, I recommend that you go and repent before you reach the place where your own heart becomes so hardened to the voice of God that you simply cannot hear Him anymore...if you haven't already come to such a place, that is.

valiant said:
I don't need your foolish explanations where you take verses out of context. No one doubts that men must repent (change their minds) in order to find mercy. But IN CONTEXT 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy' (Exod 33.19; Rom 9.16) is a statement of God's soverign power to have mercy on whom He wills. As verse 18 says, 'He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.' And that this does not mean that He is restricted by your ideas comes out in the following verses which would never have arisen if your explanation was true. When reading Scripture you have to try to use your intelligence, But you are not seeking truth. You are trying to make your own truth. So you close your eyes to anything inconvenient.
I've already thoroughly addressed those verses from Romans chapter 9 in a previous post so I'm not going to repeat myself. Suffice it to say, your "private interpretation" doesn't align itself with what either Paul or Moses whom he quoted actually meant.

valiant said:
With your small mind you do not even understand what I teach. Nowhere have I said that God closes their minds. He does not need to. Having sinned man closed his own mind. So why should God shut their minds? What He does do according to Scripture is harden their hearts (Mark 4.12; Rom 9.18; 11.7-8).
But according to your insane theology, God actually "predestined" their sin. As such, your "god" belongs in hell. Hey, that's where the Bible says that he's going. What a relief!

valiant said:
That is gratuitously insulting. Especially coming from someone who closes his mind to what God's word really says. I have discussed with many people on this site, but none as despicable in your comments as YOU. Your words make clear that Satan is manipulating you. Get you behind me, Satan.
Actually, your words on this thread alone make it abundantly clear that you are presently totally incapable of rightly dividing the Word of God. There may still be hope for you, though, if you're willing to repent. If not, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

valiant said:
In your condition you need to sigh. May the Christ Whom you misrepresent have mercy on your soul.
Christ has had mercy on my soul when I asked for the same. He'll do the same for you, but He only offers mercy to those who confess and forsake their sin:

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13)
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I requested this thread be closed, the mods seem to have decided to keep it open. Elf3 told me he is no longer going to respond but still it drags on...
No offense, but "drags on" would be a matter of personal opinion. The very character of God is being discussed here and it is vitally important that we see God for Who He actually is. Again, He's not the ABDUCTING, RAPING, IMPRISONING, CARROT ON A STICK WAVING SADIST that some here would have us to believe that He is. Instead, He has graciously provided a ransom for all men through Christ and whosoever will may partake of the same.
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
Folks have God all wrong. God is love - yes absolutely but He is also a just and holy God. God is not a wimp and we must have a healthy respect for who He is and what He stands for.
 
J

jennymae

Guest
I think our imagination of God is telling on ourselves. Somebody will say that God is strict and is just waiting on an opportunity to smack you down if you dont do as been told, while others will say he is pure love and nothin more/less. Now, I dont know what God is like, and I dont think nobody else can know that either, despite what they are claiming in the forums here.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Folks have God all wrong. God is love - yes absolutely but He is also a just and holy God. God is not a wimp and we must have a healthy respect for who He is and what He stands for.
I totally agree. His justice, though, is directly tied to Christ in that He is "just and a justifier of him who believes in Jesus" (Romans 3:26). Do you believe that everybody is given the opportunity to believe? I hope that you do. If nothing else, I'm hoping that you'll seriously consider the question that I asked at the end of my two-part post (posts 285 & 286) in relation to those who have stumbled still having the opportunity to believe and be saved and in relation to those who are presently saved being in danger of being cut off. Speaking of "respect", Paul instructed the Gentile Romans who were saved to "fear lest God also spare not them" (Romans 11:20-21) and that's because nobody was "predestined" in the manner in which some here falsely assert.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I think our imagination of God is telling on ourselves. Somebody will say that God is strict and is just waiting on an opportunity to smack you down if you dont do as been told, while others will say he is pure love and nothin more/less. Now, I dont know what God is like, and I dont think nobody else can know that either, despite what they are claiming in the forums here.
We're instructed, as Christians, to behold BOTH the goodness and severity of God:

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:19-23)

God cuts off those who don't believe and grafts in those who do believe.
If those who don't believe become believers, then they are grafted in.
If those who do believe stop believing, then they are cut off.

Can it be any simpler than this?

The fact that one's status can change so drastically totally destroys the very concept of the type of "predestination" that some are peddling here. IOW, if God "predestined" somebody to unbelief, then how can they later believe? Similarly, if God "predestined" somebody to belief, then how can they be in danger of falling away due to unbelief? Does God "predestine" some to not believe and then to believe? Does God "predestine" some to believe only to then stop believing?

Seriously, this isn't rocket science. Sin and death passed down unto all men through the first Adam even as Paul described in Romans chapter 5 and elsewhere and justification and life can similarly be passed down unto all men through the last Adam, Jesus Christ, as Paul similarly taught in Romans chapter 5 and elsewhere. IOW, the problem came into the world through the first Adam and the solution has been provided for the whole world through the last Adam. It's really that simple.
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
I think our imagination of God is telling on ourselves. Somebody will say that God is strict and is just waiting on an opportunity to smack you down if you dont do as been told, while others will say he is pure love and nothin more/less. Now, I dont know what God is like, and I dont think nobody else can know that either, despite what they are claiming in the forums here.
You know God through study.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
Folks have God all wrong. God is love - yes absolutely but He is also a just and holy God. God is not a wimp and we must have a healthy respect for who He is and what He stands for.
This isn't intended as criticism... rather CLARIFICATION.

It is more accurate to say "GOD is HOLY and JUST--- and therefore HE is LOVE"... when I read your <above> statement MPW I personally get the impression that "LOVE" comes before HOLY and JUST and that is not so... the character and nature of God is HOLY and JUST and <may I add merciful and gracious>... which is how he conveys HIS love.

God also HATES, he gets angry, you can grieve and offend him.... giving emphasis to "LOVE" when humanity as a whole has an entirely warped/fallen comprehension of love... being whatever feels good or I perceive as good to ME... is an error.

The beginning of wisdom is to fear God... hmmm, that is a requisite instruction... give REVERENCE to HOLY GOD and then wisdom will be opened for you...

I can't make decisions for others'... but I surely do want wisdom... God's kind of wisdom... isn't it GOOD and GRACIOUS of him to tell us how to get it!:D