Are we sinners?

[eternally-gratefull]

If what is not true??

if we do not look at ourselves as people who still break the law (sinner)

Then the legalist who claims he is ok, as long as he remains righteous has a leg to stand on. ( can lower Gods standard to fit my own)

and the licentious who thinks he can live anyway he want, has a leg to stand on.


Paul said he continued to run the race, because he knew he did not make it yet. He still needed grace. But he also knew, to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord. so he had security.

Like i said earlier, it gets confusing, especially for a new believer, but they must realise the difference. You can take one too far if you do not also take the other. .

 

[Grace777x70]

all not true and it is again a "straw-man"..when are you going to "hear" what is said to you?...my goodness you are deep in the woods..come back to us!

Emotional logic


To show how far out this heresy has progressed words like repentance, servant, slave have been removed and rejected.
Being humble before the Lord in trembling fear out of respect is replaced with arrogance and no restraint.

So bad is the idea of conviction of sin is now the work of the devil, and humbling oneself part of legalism.

I do not hear this walk from them or victory over sin, which they are repenting of continuously. So rather than righteousness and grace, they have obtain fleshly exaltation and arrogance. In their confused immoral world, it is hard to wish anything for them, because everything is not working. The grace I speak of is not the grace they are speaking of, so our language never meets.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the difference here and the thing which causes confusion is what is the definition of a sinner.

One who lives in sin, or practices sin, (the world) is a sinner, (john used that defenition in his epistle. when he stated a child of God can not sin )

One who breaks the law. and does not keep all words written in the law is a sinner..For all have sinned and fall short. (I still miss the mark, or fall short)

The second type or interpretation of what a sinner is, is the one I am talking about, not the first.

Again, the english language causes confusion so we are probably saying the same thing, when we d not think we are.

 

[Grace777x70]

I think it all boils down to "identity"...which identity do we align ourselves with..the old man which has been crucified with Christ..or the new man created in Christ in righteousness and holiness?

I don't think anyone says that believers don't sin anymore.....it's just that they are identifying themselves with Christ now.

That's my view....

if we do not look at ourselves as people who still break the law (sinner)

Then the legalist who claims he is ok, as long as he remains righteous has a leg to stand on. ( can lower Gods standard to fit my own)

and the licentious who thinks he can live anyway he want, has a leg to stand on.


Paul said he continued to run the race, because he knew he did not make it yet. He still needed grace. But he also knew, to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord. so he had security.

Like i said earlier, it gets confusing, especially for a new believer, but they must realise the difference. You can take one too far if you do not also take the other. .

 

[FreeNChrist]

if we do not look at ourselves as people who still break the law (sinner)

Then the legalist who claims he is ok, as long as he remains righteous has a leg to stand on. ( can lower Gods standard to fit my own)

and the licentious who thinks he can live anyway he want, has a leg to stand on.


Paul said he continued to run the race, because he knew he did not make it yet. He still needed grace. But he also knew, to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord. so he had security.

Like i said earlier, it gets confusing, especially for a new believer, but they must realise the difference. You can take one too far if you do not also take the other. .

Yes, that is all very confusing, especially coming from you and your position in other threads that seems totally at odds with what you are writing now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, that is all very confusing, especially coming from you and your position in other threads that seems totally at odds with what you are writing now.

Like what? If you do not mind me asking, and did you see my last post about how we interpret what a sinner is,, under what context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it all boils down to "identity"...which identity do we align ourselves with..the old man which has been crucified with Christ..or the new man created in Christ in righteousness and holiness?

I don't think anyone says that believers don't sin anymore.....it's just that they are identifying themselves with Christ now.

That's my view....

A licentious person identifies himself with Christ, that;s why he can sin all he wants with no repercussions..

thats why we need both, Again see my post on differing interpretations of what a sinner is. I think we might be saying the same thing..

 

[FreeNChrist]

Like what? If you do not mind me asking, and did you see my last post about how we interpret what a sinner is,, under what context.

I don't have the time this morning. I was asked a question, I gave my answer. It is what I believe. And it is consistent with what I have posted in all threads.

Lots to do today and not enough time to get it all done.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't have the time this morning. I was asked a question, I gave my answer. It is what I believe. And it is consistent with what I have posted in all threads.

Lots to do today and not enough time to get it all done.....

so you had time to read and reply to this post. But not to my post on the differing defenitions of what a sinner is. (post 303)
Just saying..

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh..he has repercussions...lol..he will get to see the Lord real quick sometimes..if he continues on his own destructive ways..

I don't think about the law...well unless you are talking about the law of life in Christ or the law of love or the law of faith or the law of liberty in Christ...those are written on my heart..

I know what you are saying about licentiousness but I believe if we teach them grace..this foolishness will drop off them like dead leaves....once the "sap" of the Vine goes through us..all this craziness drops off naturally..

A licentious person identifies himself with Christ, that;s why he can sin all he wants with no repercussions..

thats why we need both, Again see my post on differing interpretations of what a sinner is. I think we might be saying the same thing..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh..he has repercussions...lol..he will get to see the Lord real quick sometimes..if he continues on his own destructive ways..

I don't think about the law...well unless you are talking about the law of life in Christ or the law of love or the law of faith or the law of liberty in Christ...those are written on my heart..

I know what you are saying about licentiousness but I believe if we teach them grace..this foolishness will drop off them like dead leaves....once the "sap" of the Vine goes through us..all this craziness drops off naturally..

The law has not worked on them yet, thats why they have yet t find the true Christ.

I do not need to look to the law to know I still fall short of the glory of God. I have to just realize, I am still a sinner saved by grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't have a clue what the 10 commandments are to tell you the truth...I know maybe 3 of them...the Holy Spirit doesn't help me to remember them for some reason....I know they are good tho..because I read it from Paul.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't have a clue what the 10 commandments are to tell you the truth...I know maybe 3 of them...the Holy Spirit doesn't help me to remember them for some reason....I know they are good tho..because I read it from Paul.

Well the law is more than ten, but that is beside the point.

Do you fulfill the law? Or do you still fall short?

 

[Grace777x70]

I heard that there are 613 of them!..wowsers!

I don't consider the law at all... I do know that Jesus fulfilled the law..I'm in Him and I know that His love in me will cover whatever is in the law..so it's a non-issue with me....doesn't even enter into my mind actually...

Well the law is more than ten, but that is beside the point.

Do you fulfill the law? Or do you still fall short?

 

[PeterJens]

Yeah Actually there is, Not from God, God is perfect Love, But from fleshly mankind? Yes there are all kinds of psuedo loves..

I understand your way of building definitions in your language. Love is a positive feeling towards the object of love. This attitude has few limits. It is used throughout society to express this attitude towards things like I love that song, I love sweets, I love money, I love beauty, I love nature, I love God, I love my wife etc.

Now each person adds to their love of things by actions, or ways of expressing it, or devotion to the thing which defines what they will or not do because of it.

So when you say there is pseudo love, you are saying a particular way of expressing love in God has certain characteristics which some people who have faith do not seem to express.

We love because God made us to love. Everybody loves, it is who humans are. The more disfunctional you are the more shut down this love is. Everyone has the capacity to love. If you do not know this, you are very closed down and blind. It is why humanists become humanists, because of statements like

"If we have not experienced Gods love, then we have no capacity to love"

This is arrogant nonsense.

Sin is all about doing harm against others for the benefit of self. There is no limitation on the context this is done.

Anyone can serve anything and anybody, it is not limited to faith. A righteous act can be done by anybody.
No one is righteous, acceptable until they are washed clean, because everyone has sinned, and sin makes us unrighteous and unworthy.

Now our language is similar but far apart. It is obvious you are very religious in your definitions and feel you have it completely sown up, when you obviously miss-use them a lot.

It is not surprising therefore we do not agree. A lot of miss-understanding and talking at cross purposes obviously results, which is how we can equally get upset about the same ideas in different ways. It is not surprising therefore how our theology often falls short to capture the glorious nature of our Lord and who we are in Christ.

 

[kathryn]

I heard that there are 613 of them!..wowsers!

I don't consider the law at all... I do know that Jesus fulfilled the law..I'm in Him and I know that His love in me will cover whatever is in the law..so it's a non-issue with me....doesn't even enter into my mind actually...

That's fine as long as you are following after the Holy Spirit, but what happens if you step outside of that?

I become a Christian, God has 100 issues that need dealing with in my life. He is going to start with the most serious. Should I start fretting about number 99&100 not having been dealt with, and be burdened down by guilt because they haven't? Of course not, I am allowing God to change me as He wants to, so I am following after the Holy Spirit, no condemnation, Jesus died for my shortcomings. No need to think of or concentrate on any laws.
But what happens if I meet a good looking man, strike up a friendship with him and end up having an affair with him?
Then I cannot say, everything is fine because Jesus died for my sins can I. I am going to be burdened by the fact I am not living as God wants me to, then the law if you like will hurt me. I am not then following after the Holy Spirit and allowing God to bring me to live more as he wants me to. My continued growth is blocked

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand your way of building definitions in your language. Love is a positive feeling towards the object of love. This attitude has few limits. It is used throughout society to express this attitude towards things like I love that song, I love sweets, I love money, I love beauty, I love nature, I love God, I love my wife etc.

Now each person adds to their love of things by actions, or ways of expressing it, or devotion to the thing which defines what they will or not do because of it.

No, You do not understand at all. Stop trying to think you understand, and just listen.

Gods view of love is sacrificial. Unconditional. And never seeks to serve self. Gods view of love gives his life for the one he loves. About the closest we can come to is our love for a spouse or child. And even this is no perfect love.

Other than that we have no aspect.

So when you say there is pseudo love, you are saying a particular way of expressing love in God has certain characteristics which some people who have faith do not seem to express.

No, I am saying psuedo love is any love which falls short of Gods perfect love, period.

We love because God made us to love. Everybody loves, it is who humans are. The more disfunctional you are the more shut down this love is. Everyone has the capacity to love. If you do not know this, you are very closed down and blind. It is why humanists become humanists, because of statements like

"If we have not experienced Gods love, then we have no capacity to love"

This is arrogant nonsense.

dude, you keep calling me arrogant, When it is you who are arrogant, and quite simply, I am sick and tired of your attacks. When you continue to prove you do not know what your talking about (as far as my belief)

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

Outside of God loving us first WE CAN NOT LOVE AS GOD LOVES US,

He fills our void with his love to overflowing, so that we take this excess love and pass it on to everyone around us.

THAT IS LOVING GODS WAY!

Sin is all about doing harm against others for the benefit of self. There is no limitation on the context this is done.

I never said there was, And in fact, I said this very thing.

Anyone can serve anything and anybody, it is not limited to faith. A righteous act can be done by anybody.
No one is righteous, acceptable until they are washed clean, because everyone has sinned, and sin makes us unrighteous and unworthy.

Your thinking like a man thinks, not as God thinks, God said there is non righteous no not one, God says the heart and mind of man is evil and who can understand it. We can appear righteous, to other men and women, but we can do no righteousness in our flesh (in Gods eyes). Paul made this clear in romans 7.

Now our language is similar but far apart. It is obvious you are very religious in your definitions and feel you have it completely sown up, when you obviously miss-use them a lot.

I just interpret the word as is,

Funny, How I feel your terms are religious defenition

It is not surprising therefore we do not agree. A lot of miss-understanding and talking at cross purposes obviously results, which is how we can equally get upset about the same ideas in different ways. It is not surprising therefore how our theology often falls short to capture the glorious nature of our Lord and who we are in Christ.

Again I see love as God sees it, not as man sees it

When we compair ourselves to men, we miss the point. We must always compair ourselves to God. and we will never mess up our thinking.

 

[Grace777x70]

Colossians 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

If we are not following the Holy Spirit..we need to hear the gospel..I need to hear the gospel every day. The gospel has the power to effect change in us.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

We need to confess who we are in Christ and live from our new creation..our inner man..


Ephesians 4:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Job 22:28 (NASB)
[SUP] [/SUP] "You will also decree a thing, and it will be established for you; And light will shine on your ways.

That's fine as long as you are following after the Holy Spirit, but what happens if you step outside of that?

I become a Christian, God has 100 issues that need dealing with in my life. He is going to start with the most serious. Should I start fretting about number 99&100 not having been dealt with, and be burdened down by guilt because they haven't? Of course not, I am allowing God to change me as He wants to, so I am following after the Holy Spirit, no condemnation, Jesus died for my shortcomings. No need to think of or concentrate on any laws.
But what happens if I meet a good looking man, strike up a friendship with him and end up having an affair with him?
Then I cannot say, everything is fine because Jesus died for my sins can I. I am going to be burdened by the fact I am not living as God wants me to, then the law if you like will hurt me. I am not then following after the Holy Spirit and allowing God to bring me to live more as he wants me to.

 

[kathryn]

Colossians 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

If we are not following the Holy Spirit..we need to hear the gospel..I need to hear the gospel every day. The gospel has the power to effect change in us.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

We need to confess who we are in Christ and live from our new creation..our inner man..


Ephesians 4:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Job 22:28 (NASB)
"You will also decree a thing, and it will be established for you; And light will shine on your ways.

Who is denying the Gospel has the power to change lives?

But do you always follow after the Holy Spirit?

You didn't address what I wrote

 

[PeterJens]

Did Jesus hate the righteous?

Listening to some hear you would think Jesus is condemning righteous people.

Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?
On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
Matt 9:11-13

Jesus is saying being righteous is not enough, you have to have a relationship with God, a heart of love.

Now if the "hyper-grace" followers embraced righteousness properly, understood hypocracy and walking in humbleness and a contrite heart, I would agree with them.

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Eph 4:2

Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position.
James 1:9

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”
James 4:6

But this is not the spirit I hear or see. Humbleness is part of walking with God.
We are stubborn, proud, self willed, self opinionated, and not broken.

My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.
Psalm 51:17

Old and new testament things have not changed, or the nature of man or God.
Those who believe they have are mistaken.

A question that lingers in my mind, is how the Kingdom could be founded on something new today, when it began with Jesus on earth 2,000 years ago and has been growing since. I would suggest those who are blind to love working everywhere and blind to love in them, have to invent something different to explain what has happended to them without condemning themselves to an error or being miss-guided.

Ofcourse if the "chosen" can never be miss-guided how were they so lost for so long before the "revelation" happened.