Are we sinners?

[PeterJens]

Biblically, grace is unmerited favor.

The word "grace" in biblical parlance can, like forgiveness, repentance, regeneration, and salvation, mean something as broad as describing the whole of God's activity toward man or as narrow as describing one segment of that activity. An accurate, common definition describes grace as the unmerited favor of God toward man.

The problem therefore to use a word like grace is in the eye of the speaker, so the listen can never understand their intent unless they explain the meaning. It is easy therefore to accuse some of failing in something, while others say Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

It is not a made up thing, Can you ever discuss anything without having to make sarcastic comments? You remind me so much of the church I grew up in and some of the men in there, it sickens me.

I am sorry you feel sick, you should see a doctor. Now if you use the term Gods infinite mercy(grace), you are helping to clarify your language.

But then I stop. Is Gods mercy infinite? No it has limits. If Gods mercy was infinite there would be not justice only forgiveness.

So again I cannot agree with this definition. It suggests again something that is simply not true, an over-emphasis on forgiveness and bad behaviour without any come back.

You say I have the gospel backwards. "If you were saved you would understand"

This is very sad language and proves my point. I have spoken to people of many faiths with common language and understanding, yet here among christians it appears this language is neither common or agreed. You are quite happy to say I am not saved and a pharisee because I do not agree with your view or description of grace.

As I have said before scripture is clear about love and the fruit of the spirit in the life of a believer that leads to righteousness.

You seem not to agree with this scripture, so you do not stand with our faith.

You are determined to condemn good works or fruit from a believing heart as self righteousness, so we must disagree.

I understand why denominations came about because these apparent simple differences cannot often be breached.

 

[PeterJens]

Well I think scripture is pretty clear. this is true How can you experience Gods grace unless you are saved.

A quick question, are you a divorcee?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I disagree, it has everything to do with man's mind, man's mind is what gets renewed. If we walk by the Spirit then we walk in agreement with our inner man. If we walk in the flesh then we are in agreement with the flesh... the new man can't walk in the flesh, it's not possible for him to do so. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 isn't it. Paul is in agreement with his inner man, he loves the law of God and submits to it in his mind. But with his mortal body he still sins, he still can't do the things his mind says are good.

Yes, I don't know why I said that!! It has to do with man's mind in as much as one "renews" one mind to the word of God.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

 

[blondieindahouse]

You know much.
There's only one problem.
In the verses you are talking about in romans 7 Paul always lost the battle and the holy spirit is not mentioned. How do you explain that?

If I am understanding your question properly: The spirit is mentioned in 7:6! He then goes on to reiterate in 8:1.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am sorry you feel sick, you should see a doctor. Now if you use the term Gods infinite mercy(grace), you are helping to clarify your language.

But then I stop. Is Gods mercy infinite? No it has limits. If Gods mercy was infinite there would be not justice only forgiveness.

That would be true, if not for the cross.

The cross is the basis for Gods infinite mercy (grace) He will not force his love on anyone who does not desire it, So he asks that we ask him for it in faith (hope)

So again I cannot agree with this definition. It suggests again something that is simply not true, an over-emphasis on forgiveness and bad behaviour without any come back.

Well I disagree with your version of earned grace, that would lead to legalism. (I know I promised not to use that word)

You say I have the gospel backwards. "If you were saved you would understand"

I said you have the process backwards, not the gospel. Again why do you not listen to what people say?

You just destroyed our conversation because your answering me based on a false understanding of what I said, so nothing you say concerning this has any bearing on our conversation.

As I have said before scripture is clear about love and the fruit of the spirit in the life of a believer that leads to righteousness.

Well this is what I say also.. But you again do not seem to want to hear that.

You seem not to agree with this scripture, so you do not stand with our faith.

You are determined to condemn good works or fruit from a believing heart as self righteousness, so we must disagree.

I understand why denominations came about because these apparent simple differences cannot often be breached.

You do not understand me at all. I doubt you ever will. you keep making false comments about what I believe..

Again you remind me of people in my old church, You think you know it all. You tell people what they believe, and are blinded by your pride to even realise your wrong at that.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You know much.
There's only one problem.
In the verses you are talking about in romans 7 Paul always lost the battle and the holy spirit is not mentioned. How do you explain that?

Paul ALWAYS lost the battle? Does it say he ALWAYS lost the battle? I don't see that it does say ALWAYS. - He delights in the law of God in his inner being (holy Spirit) but he sees another law waging war against the law of his mind and (at times) makes him captive to the law of sin. Paul received more revelation than any other apostle - I don't think that would have occurred if he ALWAYS lost the battle.

The holy Spirit is not mentioned? His desire to do good comes from the new creation in him - holy Spirit was created IN him when he was born again - and the holy Spirit is what gives him the ability to carry out what he truly desires. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh is no good thing - I have the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out (through the flesh). The two laws warring inside him was between the flesh and the Spirit.

 

[kathryn]

Paul ALWAYS lost the battle? Does it say he ALWAYS lost the battle? I don't see that it does say ALWAYS. - He delights in the law of God in his inner being (holy Spirit) but he sees another law waging war against the law of his mind and (at times) makes him captive to the law of sin. Paul received more revelation than any other apostle - I don't think that would have occurred if he ALWAYS lost the battle.

The holy Spirit is not mentioned? His desire to do good comes from the new creation in him - holy Spirit was created IN him when he was born again - and the holy Spirit is what gives him the ability to carry out what he truly desires. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh is no good thing - I have the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out (through the flesh). The two laws warring inside him was between the flesh and the Spirit.

Thanks for your reply

At the beginning of those verses Paul says he is sold as a slave to sin. As you mentioned, Paul had the desire to do what is good but couldn't carry it out. All he mentions is defeat, no victory

I agree Paul received more revelation than any other Apostle.
I am sure you know there is a lot of contention as to which Paul he is speaking of in those verses. Scholars and theologians are pretty much divided on that.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Thanks for your reply

At the beginning of those verses Paul says he is sold as a slave to sin. As you mentioned, Paul had the desire to do what is good but couldn't carry it out. All he mentions is defeat, no victory

Sure he does, right here,

"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! ..." Rom. 7:24-25

 

[kathryn]

Sure he does, right here,

"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! ..." Rom. 7:24-25

Dont stop there, carry on about another twelve verses. Here's a couple

Therefore brothers we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature to live according to it, for if you live according to the sinful nature you will die ch8:12&13

 

[FreeNChrist]

Dont stop there, carry on about another twelve verses. Here's a couple

Therefore brothers we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature to live according to it, for if you live according to the sinful nature you will die ch8:12&13

Everything he is writing ch. 7 is for the purpose of leading us right up to that conclusion. That victory is only to be found in Christ.

 

[kathryn]

Everything he is writing ch. 7 is for the purpose of leading us right up to that conclusion. That victory is only to be found in Christ.

I agree, in Christ through the power of the holy spirit, you put it great

 

[Cee]

What does the old has GONE and the new has COME mean to you then? Paul didn't say the old is still here, but the new is more powerful. Grace is not that I am a sinful person, whoa is me, grace is I am set free! Liberated to love one another. Gnostics believed that matter was evil and spiritual was good, thats what Iraenus is talking about. He even says "word for word" they declare that that we (Christians) have received grace for us, but that it will be taken away from us. No one is teaching that here.

Gnostics said there was secret knowledge, we are saying the "secret knowledge" is Christ in you. Or do you think the HOLY SPIRIT dwells in unholy temples? Why do you think the Bible says have you begun in the flesh only to be perfected by the Spirit? You're a new creation, you can call it whatever you want, but the Scripture is clear.

Paul said in Colossians 3:1–4: “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.”

Notice his words: you have been raised, so focus on Him. This is what we have said.
Notice his words: you have died, and your life now is in Christ. This is what we have said.

The Scripture is clear. You are a new creation. And the "renewing of your mind" to this reality is how you walk it out. As Paul explains in:

[SUP]Eph 4:22 [/SUP]to put off your old self,[SUP][a][/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


Old self is your former manner of life. Being renewed in your mind is to put on the new self. This new self is created in righteousness and holiness.

What of Paul's words do you not agree with here?

C.

Grace doesn't shame anyone. There is no condemnation in Christ for having a sinful nature. We receive grace and power through the holy spirit to live holy lives while tabernacled in bodies polluted and corrupted by sin.

New grace isn't grace because it denies the need for grace. Instead it teaches that believers receive a special substance called grace that transforms them into entirely new creatures. People without a sinful nature don't need grace.

The contrast between GOD's grace and New Grace couldn't be clearer in Irenaeus' witness regarding the gnostics of his day.

 

[slave]

Gotcha!....yes and we are back to the spirit ( our inner man where the Holy Spirit is ) and the flesh ( with the power of sin in it.) which is in our body are contrary to each other....we use our will ( part of our soul ) to activate either what the spirit wants or the flesh wants.

I believe it is knowing who we are in Christ and having His life in us manifesting through and in our inner man/spirit - is what effects true change in our outward behavior. This is done by the choosing with our will to "be who we really are " in Christ.

This is what produces " fruit "from the Vine in us..namely Christ's life. It's His fruit coming forth. This kinda what it is like for me anyways...is just a natural way of life. I have no desire to do things I would in the past. His love in me just comes out naturally so that I never have to think.." am I loving this person?"...it's like I'm just living the life in me..which is His.

Scriptures come up within me too which cement what is going on inside of me to illicit an action. I never really thought about it in that much detail before. I'll have to ponder it and pray over it to see if I can articulate this better.

I'm off to a Christmas party..have a great night!..

I differ in the road travelled to the end in this way: you stated: "This is done by the choosing with our will to "be who we really are" in Christ. I would submit Scripture to read more like this: "This is done by the choosing with our will to "Be in Christ," who we really are. It is the disposition of ourselves that makes the new man powerful and able to withstand all that life dishes. ALL!.... Satan has no victory that can be snatched from the New Creation found in our Christ-like disposition. But in an individual disposition set upon Christ, he can create all sorts of havoc, leading to tumultuous demise.

 

[Cee]

The reason why hyper-grace is heresy because love is no longer the focus, but grace in Christ.
This grace is now eternal life and only after the cross can it be found, and before the cross all was legalism and failure, but after freedom and success.

Legalism has always been failure because love of God and love of others has always been Gods way. Those who by faith in God received this walked in His grace, from the time of Adam to now.
Walking in righteousness has always been about a relationship with God.
Enoch knew God and he was not.

What we have after seeing Jesus is sight of how this love is ultimately expressed in the cross, where God humbled himself and said the sin done against him was forgiven if we walk in Jesus way.

Hyper-grace can change the gospel by putting all the restraining and doing ideas into legalism, and all the wealth, health, domination ideas into the grace doctrine.

The problem is this concept is flawed as the apostles called us to follow in Jesus commands, to the extent if we do not we are not filled with the Holy Spirit.

I don't agree with this at all. And I believe in hyper-grace. Grace is the fact you are a new creation, so as you have stated, if we do not follow Jesus commands it is because we are not renewed in our mind to the fact we are a new creation. Does this mean we don't need grace? No. It means we are continually abiding and growing in grace because we are continually realizing who we are now in Christ.

And this results in being more like Christ not less. And Christ was the fulfillment of the law, which is love. The difference my friend is that we do not love because we have to, we love because He first loved us. Not to keep some requirement, but because His law is written on our heart and mind.

So in fact grace empowers holiness. It does not detract from it. Religion and legalism detract from holiness because they make the ways of God a requirement instead of from a cheerful obedient heart of a son.

What do you think it means to be conformed into the Image of His Son? Because that's God's purpose for you from the beginning.

C.

 

[Cee]

You nailed it. Exactly as the gnostics used to think. Grace to New Grace believers is freedom from any constraints, i.e., lawlessness.

You mean this freedom? Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

 

[Cee]

Just to quickly add to what you wrote...
There is no righteousness apart from Christ.
We know this because Paul said it.
As far as the Scriptures you wrote about humbleness they are directed at one another.
Because as we love one another, we love Him
Because it's not us who live, but Christ in us
That's why Christ says as you do for the least you do unto Me and to Paul He said why do you persecute Me? When Paul was persecuting the church...

C.

Did Jesus hate the righteous?

Listening to some hear you would think Jesus is condemning righteous people.

Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?
On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
Matt 9:11-13

Jesus is saying being righteous is not enough, you have to have a relationship with God, a heart of love.

Now if the "hyper-grace" followers embraced righteousness properly, understood hypocracy and walking in humbleness and a contrite heart, I would agree with them.

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Eph 4:2

Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position.
James 1:9

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”
James 4:6

But this is not the spirit I hear or see. Humbleness is part of walking with God.
We are stubborn, proud, self willed, self opinionated, and not broken.

My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.
Psalm 51:17

Old and new testament things have not changed, or the nature of man or God.
Those who believe they have are mistaken.

A question that lingers in my mind, is how the Kingdom could be founded on something new today, when it began with Jesus on earth 2,000 years ago and has been growing since. I would suggest those who are blind to love working everywhere and blind to love in them, have to invent something different to explain what has happended to them without condemning themselves to an error or being miss-guided.

Ofcourse if the "chosen" can never be miss-guided how were they so lost for so long before the "revelation" happened.

 

[Cee]

HI Eternally!

Don't forget brother we are DEAD to the Law! Remember Galatians? It tells us that we are dead so that we can remarry It's a beautiful picture. But yeah we are dead to the law. And the law never made anyone righteous anyways.

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Notice in this Scripture it actually doesn't mention the Law, but seeking after God, the 10 commandments were not for us but the Iraelites through Moses. We actually come in through Abraham. -Gal 3 talks about this extensively. Notice that the Scriptures written to Gentiles do not mention the 10 commandments this is why... also we know that the 10 commandments were actually the ministry of death, with a fading glory... one of the reason people think we still need the Big 10 because they don't understand that love is fulfillment of them. And Christ is love.

So now it is not us who live, but love. Of course like i've said we are growing in our understanding of this reality of what Christ accomplished for us.

C.

Then you just admitted, Your a sinner (according to the law) who is saved (from the curse of the law) By Grace..

Thanks

 

[Kaycie]

Christians might sin, but are not sinners. Everyone has sinned, but the sin of a Christian is not counted against them- they are justified (just if I'd never even sinned at all).

Let me give you an example...

What do you call someone who steals? A thief, right?
What do you call someone who gets drunk? A drunkard, right?
What do you call someone who lies? A liar, right?

Ok, so let's say someone just stole something, and you have the power to rewind their action. You make time go backwards to the the point that even the thought of stealing isn't even in their head. Now, in this moment, are they a thief? How can someone who never stole anything be a thief? They are not.

When Christ's blood washes away sin, it doesn't just cover it up, it completely disappears, as if it never even happened at all. So in this case, did they sin? Yes. Are they a sinner? No. Someone in Christ is not a thief, or a drunkard, or a liar, they are a Christian. They have not made a good name for themselves, so they call on the name of Lord- which is perfection. Now if they wear the name perfection, and perfection is true to its name, how can flaw be found in something that is completely perfect?

You see, if they wore their own name, then their completely revealed reputation would reveal flaw. Is Christ a thief, a drunkard, or a liar? By no means! Then everyone who is in Christ shares in Christ's perfection.

But there are many who think they are in Christ, yet give no effort into obeying God, and thus deceive themselves. For God only gives grace to those who obey Him until death. To those who take up their cross and follow Christ. Christ says not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter heaven, but only those who DO the Will of His Father Who is in heaven.

 

[slave]

I don't agree with this at all. And I believe in hyper-grace. Grace is the fact you are a new creation, so as you have stated, if we do not follow Jesus commands it is because we are not renewed in our mind to the fact we are a new creation. Does this mean we don't need grace? No. It means we are continually abiding and growing in grace because we are continually realizing who we are now in Christ.

And this results in being more like Christ not less. And Christ was the fulfillment of the law, which is love. The difference my friend is that we do not love because we have to, we love because He first loved us. Not to keep some requirement, but because His law is written on our heart and mind.

So in fact grace empowers holiness. It does not detract from it. Religion and legalism detract from holiness because they make the ways of God a requirement instead of from a cheerful obedient heart of a son.

What do you think it means to be conformed into the Image of His Son? Because that's God's purpose for you from the beginning.

C.

Well wrought out my friend. Good stuff.