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Not only did Peter quote the whole section from Joel he went further:
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
"as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days". - he did not speak of "days" 19 centuries into the future.
Another "dispensational" direct contradiction of the scripture.
"As many as have spoken."
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
"as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days". - he did not speak of "days" 19 centuries into the future.
Another "dispensational" direct contradiction of the scripture.
"As many as have spoken."
Regardless Locutus, those events have not yet taken place, unless of course you symbolize or spiritualize them. The seals, trumpets and bowls must take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. The promise give by Christ regarding the gathering of the church, is to the the whole church from its beginning right up to the time when the resurrection takes place. Therefore, Christ could not have already appeared because the church is still in the process of being built. When the resurrection of the dead and those who are still alive belonging to the church takes place, every single person belonging to the church dead and living, will be gathered and caught up. Therefore, since the church is still being built, the gathering of the church could not have yet taken place.
By having end-time events already taking place and Jesus already returning around 70 AD, you are leaving out the majority of the church from his promises. Do you understand that?
We have nothing in history recorded regarding the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as taking place and which must take place before the Lord can return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. As proof of this, Jesus interjects the following after the 6th bowl is poured out:
"“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
His interjection above demonstrates that by the pouring out of the 6th bowl, he has not yet returned to the earth.
My advice to you, is to do a in-depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then ask yourself truthfully whether or not these events have yet taken place on the earth.
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It is much safer, and legitimate, to symbolic and spiritualize when the NT writers do it and proclaim prophecy fulfilled then to completely make things up such 1. Church age gap in Dan. 9, 2. 7 year tribulation before Christ comes, 3. rebuilding of a physical temple, 4. Jesus ruling on an earthly temple, 5. a "thee anti-christ, etc. etc. etc.)
No, it is not safer or legitimate to symbolize/spiritualize scripture. It is actually more careless! The word of God, including the book of Revelation, should be read in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is required. The problem that we have today is that the teaching has gone out that the book of Revelation is all symbolic and so people approach it as such, ignoring the literal.
Not quite sure what the above is referring to, but if it is in reference to the seventy seven year periods decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, with the last seven years being yet future, there are sound reasons for this interpretation.
* There is no fulfillment of the seven year covenant being established by the antichrist
* No fulfillment of the abomination being set up. For if it were, Jesus would have had to have returned to the earth to end the age 3 1/2 years after it was set up.
* The decree that is to be poured out on the ruler/antichirst/man of lawlessness, which is in reference to him being thrown alive into the lake of fire when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
In Dan.9:24, Daniel is told that seventy sevens have been decreed upon your people and their holy city.
7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 sevens = The Messiah was cut off (Christ crucified)
As specified above, the details of the last seven have never been fulfilled, unless you force it. Revelation reflects that last seven year period which is made up of two 3 1/2 year periods mentioned as follows:
1260 days[FONT="] = The two witnesses prophecy during the first 3 1/2 years
[/FONT][FONT="]
42 Months = The beast if given authority to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints during the last 3 1/2 years
1260 days = The woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years
So you see, the seven years are present in the book of Revelation. The majority of the book is given to the wrath of God which is carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. None of which have taken place. And will not take place until the Lord appears and gathers the church out of the earth prior to his wrath being poured out.
Regarding the temple, years ago Israel reconvened the Sanhedrin. The furniture, utensils, articles, etc. for the temple has all been prepared according to the law of Moses. The priests garments, with the breast plate with the twelve stones representing each of the twelve tribes, the turbans, etc., has been prepared. The blue prints for the temple are ready to go. And they have been instructing the priests in regards to proper sacrifice according to the law given to Moses.
From the time that Jesus quoted Daniel 9:27 to the time that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, none of the events of that last seven years have been fulfilled and therefore must still be future. At the end of 69 sevens, the Messiah was cut off according to the prophecy.
At that time, God put that last seven on hold for a future fulfillment and began to build his church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will appear and the church will be gathered according to 1 Thes.4:13-17.
Once the church has been removed, then God will pick up where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, with temple sacrifices and offerings and the wrath of God.
At the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth and those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, will follow behind him riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean. The beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire alive. And Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss. The thousand year reign of Christ begins.
Scripture states that Jesus[/FONT][FONT="] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, [/FONT][FONT="]and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
"[/FONT][FONT="]On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."
"[/FONT][FONT="]I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. [/FONT][FONT="]His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. [/FONT][FONT="]He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. [/FONT][FONT="]The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. [/FONT][FONT="]Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “[/FONT][FONT="]He will rule them with an iron scepter.[/FONT][FONT="]”[/FONT][FONT="] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."
"[/FONT][FONT="]He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."
Jesus is not going to rule from heaven through his saints, as the preterists and amillennialists would have you believe. For as you can see from the scriptures above, he physically and visually, returns to the earth at the end of that last seven years. We don't make this stuff up, we compare and cross-reference scripture. The only reason that they say that we make things up, is because it doesn't support the belief that they adopted from a false teachers.
[/FONT]
Not quite sure what the above is referring to, but if it is in reference to the seventy seven year periods decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, with the last seven years being yet future, there are sound reasons for this interpretation.
* There is no fulfillment of the seven year covenant being established by the antichrist
* No fulfillment of the abomination being set up. For if it were, Jesus would have had to have returned to the earth to end the age 3 1/2 years after it was set up.
* The decree that is to be poured out on the ruler/antichirst/man of lawlessness, which is in reference to him being thrown alive into the lake of fire when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
In Dan.9:24, Daniel is told that seventy sevens have been decreed upon your people and their holy city.
7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 sevens = The Messiah was cut off (Christ crucified)
As specified above, the details of the last seven have never been fulfilled, unless you force it. Revelation reflects that last seven year period which is made up of two 3 1/2 year periods mentioned as follows:
1260 days[FONT="] = The two witnesses prophecy during the first 3 1/2 years
[/FONT][FONT="]
42 Months = The beast if given authority to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints during the last 3 1/2 years
1260 days = The woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness and is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years
So you see, the seven years are present in the book of Revelation. The majority of the book is given to the wrath of God which is carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. None of which have taken place. And will not take place until the Lord appears and gathers the church out of the earth prior to his wrath being poured out.
Regarding the temple, years ago Israel reconvened the Sanhedrin. The furniture, utensils, articles, etc. for the temple has all been prepared according to the law of Moses. The priests garments, with the breast plate with the twelve stones representing each of the twelve tribes, the turbans, etc., has been prepared. The blue prints for the temple are ready to go. And they have been instructing the priests in regards to proper sacrifice according to the law given to Moses.
From the time that Jesus quoted Daniel 9:27 to the time that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, none of the events of that last seven years have been fulfilled and therefore must still be future. At the end of 69 sevens, the Messiah was cut off according to the prophecy.
At that time, God put that last seven on hold for a future fulfillment and began to build his church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will appear and the church will be gathered according to 1 Thes.4:13-17.
Once the church has been removed, then God will pick up where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, with temple sacrifices and offerings and the wrath of God.
At the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth and those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, will follow behind him riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean. The beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire alive. And Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss. The thousand year reign of Christ begins.
Scripture states that Jesus[/FONT][FONT="] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, [/FONT][FONT="]and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
"[/FONT][FONT="]On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."
"[/FONT][FONT="]I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. [/FONT][FONT="]His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. [/FONT][FONT="]He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. [/FONT][FONT="]The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. [/FONT][FONT="]Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “[/FONT][FONT="]He will rule them with an iron scepter.[/FONT][FONT="]”[/FONT][FONT="] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."
"[/FONT][FONT="]He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."
Jesus is not going to rule from heaven through his saints, as the preterists and amillennialists would have you believe. For as you can see from the scriptures above, he physically and visually, returns to the earth at the end of that last seven years. We don't make this stuff up, we compare and cross-reference scripture. The only reason that they say that we make things up, is because it doesn't support the belief that they adopted from a false teachers.
[/FONT]
To me after hearing all the different ideas of the various different groups of Christianity across my life debate as to whether all these things were either fulfilled or they were waiting for them to be fulfilled afterwards is pretty simple. If the first century Church began and were taught that these events were future in nature concerning the AoD,mark,image ect. then after the death of those who were the original Church leaders (apostles,disciples,elders ect.) then in the very next generation of Church elders/leaders if these events had occurred between the transition between the two it would be reflected by the things written by those who immediately were set in charge over the Church after the apostles.
The thing about it is that in the letters we do have that are written by the second generation of the Church they all seem to have no idea that these things had all been fulfilled and were still looking for them to be fulfilled. In the letters written before say 250-300ad but especially the ones written in the first 100 years of the Church (up to about ad175) none of them considered these things as being fulfilled in (their) past but wrote about them not only as future events but also as if all of the readers of their letters were of the common understanding that they were still future.
It's an amazing thing to see that in the past and now the current opinion of many is that those who lived between ad71-ad250-300 had no knowledge of these things being fulfilled and as if totally ignorant of Church matters wrote in their letters as if the remaining heads and the ten horns,the beast the mark ect. had not already been fulfilled. This in it's self would mean that the apostles who first began the various Churches had chosen men to afterwards be the leaders of the newly formed Churches who were inadequate in mind to recognize the things taking place from ad70 onward in prophecy.
After about 300ad some trying to reason through what had happened then began to look back at the things that had happened and came to the conclusion that those Church leaders who were given authority by the apostles were of a simple minded nature in regards to understanding the difference between an actual 1000 year reign verses symbolic fulfilments of these events and determined that an a-mill stance was more probable. As if it were the trumping of the apostles opinions by those elders who lived in the third and fourth generation Church they made the decision that they were greater in understanding than those apostles who first chose from among the Churches it's leaders and viewed their opinions as child like,without the ability to grasp the events in front of themselves.
The thing about it is that in the letters we do have that are written by the second generation of the Church they all seem to have no idea that these things had all been fulfilled and were still looking for them to be fulfilled. In the letters written before say 250-300ad but especially the ones written in the first 100 years of the Church (up to about ad175) none of them considered these things as being fulfilled in (their) past but wrote about them not only as future events but also as if all of the readers of their letters were of the common understanding that they were still future.
It's an amazing thing to see that in the past and now the current opinion of many is that those who lived between ad71-ad250-300 had no knowledge of these things being fulfilled and as if totally ignorant of Church matters wrote in their letters as if the remaining heads and the ten horns,the beast the mark ect. had not already been fulfilled. This in it's self would mean that the apostles who first began the various Churches had chosen men to afterwards be the leaders of the newly formed Churches who were inadequate in mind to recognize the things taking place from ad70 onward in prophecy.
After about 300ad some trying to reason through what had happened then began to look back at the things that had happened and came to the conclusion that those Church leaders who were given authority by the apostles were of a simple minded nature in regards to understanding the difference between an actual 1000 year reign verses symbolic fulfilments of these events and determined that an a-mill stance was more probable. As if it were the trumping of the apostles opinions by those elders who lived in the third and fourth generation Church they made the decision that they were greater in understanding than those apostles who first chose from among the Churches it's leaders and viewed their opinions as child like,without the ability to grasp the events in front of themselves.
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Ahwatukee,
My dear fellow, you continue to confuse "great tribulation" with the tribulation of the last days. You must compare scripture with scripture.
Mat 24:
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel...then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
In the above we have the Abomination of Desolation as the trigger to flee. We have warnings to pregnant and nursing mothers. We have those in JUDEA (BIG CLUE) told to flee. We have the Sabbath mentioned. The "holy place" is a reference to the Temple which was destroyed in 70 AD. Judea and the Sabbath limits this great tribulation to Israel. You apparently NEVER look at the other versions of this prophesy, especially Luke's version.
Luke 21:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Here we see the trigger to the "great tribulation" as "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies." This means the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Armies. Who or what caused the desolation Jerusalem?? Who or what removed every stone from atop another? The Roman Armies!! The same warning to flee to the same people - Those in Judea - is given. A special woe to the pregnant and nursing babies. Why? Because of the siege and resulting famine. Food was in such short supply that mother's breast milk dried up and some resorted to cooking and eating their own babies. Josephus writes about this.
Further, Josephus explains that the seditious led by Simon and Jonathan were so evil and brutal to their own people that they killed them until their arms got tired. It was such an evil and perverse generation that Josephus writes if Rome didn't conquer them, God Himself would have needed to come down and destroy the city. No country has ever suffered the way the Jews did first under the hands of the zealots then the Roman solders. No city was ever completely wiped off the map in a war as what happened to Jerusalem's desolation.
Luke makes clear that what was to happen to Jerusalem was divine vengeance. It was God's wrath being poured out upon His people. Go back two chapters to Luke 19 and we see why!!
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
They did not know the time of Christ's visitation and they should have because Daniel told them exactly that Messiah would come 69 weeks of years or 483 years from the command to rebuild and restore which was given in 457 BC. Because there is no "ZERO" year, Christ would have appeared to John the Baptist around 27 AD putting the Cross around 30-31 AD, half way into week 70.
You keep looking for this future great tribulation of Mat 24:21 to occur and you apply it to the entire planet when it happened some 1947 years ago. You are looking at the wrong "tribulation" because the one Jesus mentions in Mat 24:29 is NOT the one from verse 21 but rather from one verse prior, verse 28.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
This is the tribulation which Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER!!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you..
This is the future tribulation:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed...“Where, Lord?”So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
The "body" is Gog!! And by the way, we don't need to be "raptured" from it.
Ez 39:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you;
I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken,” says the Lord God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]“It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude.
My dear fellow, you continue to confuse "great tribulation" with the tribulation of the last days. You must compare scripture with scripture.
Mat 24:
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel...then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
In the above we have the Abomination of Desolation as the trigger to flee. We have warnings to pregnant and nursing mothers. We have those in JUDEA (BIG CLUE) told to flee. We have the Sabbath mentioned. The "holy place" is a reference to the Temple which was destroyed in 70 AD. Judea and the Sabbath limits this great tribulation to Israel. You apparently NEVER look at the other versions of this prophesy, especially Luke's version.
Luke 21:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Here we see the trigger to the "great tribulation" as "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies." This means the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Armies. Who or what caused the desolation Jerusalem?? Who or what removed every stone from atop another? The Roman Armies!! The same warning to flee to the same people - Those in Judea - is given. A special woe to the pregnant and nursing babies. Why? Because of the siege and resulting famine. Food was in such short supply that mother's breast milk dried up and some resorted to cooking and eating their own babies. Josephus writes about this.
Further, Josephus explains that the seditious led by Simon and Jonathan were so evil and brutal to their own people that they killed them until their arms got tired. It was such an evil and perverse generation that Josephus writes if Rome didn't conquer them, God Himself would have needed to come down and destroy the city. No country has ever suffered the way the Jews did first under the hands of the zealots then the Roman solders. No city was ever completely wiped off the map in a war as what happened to Jerusalem's desolation.
Luke makes clear that what was to happen to Jerusalem was divine vengeance. It was God's wrath being poured out upon His people. Go back two chapters to Luke 19 and we see why!!
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
They did not know the time of Christ's visitation and they should have because Daniel told them exactly that Messiah would come 69 weeks of years or 483 years from the command to rebuild and restore which was given in 457 BC. Because there is no "ZERO" year, Christ would have appeared to John the Baptist around 27 AD putting the Cross around 30-31 AD, half way into week 70.
You keep looking for this future great tribulation of Mat 24:21 to occur and you apply it to the entire planet when it happened some 1947 years ago. You are looking at the wrong "tribulation" because the one Jesus mentions in Mat 24:29 is NOT the one from verse 21 but rather from one verse prior, verse 28.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
This is the tribulation which Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER!!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you..
This is the future tribulation:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed...“Where, Lord?”So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
The "body" is Gog!! And by the way, we don't need to be "raptured" from it.
Ez 39:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you;
I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken,” says the Lord God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]“It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude.
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Failure by the dispensationlists to recognise the judgements on the whore and great city as covenant "penalties" on apostate Israel leads to a wrong application of when, where and whom.
The bowls etc in the book of revelation are specially targeted at apostate Israel of the 1st century AD and find their source in the old covenant:
I'll quote from planetpreterist:
II. Leviticus 26:21. Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
III. Leviticus 26:23-24 And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
IV. Leviticus 26:27-28 And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
This pattern of Israel’s covenant punishments, four sets of punishments, each having a seven fold fulfillment, provides the structure the plagues and punishments found in the book of Revelation. The four sets of seven fold punishment in Revelation are:
I. The seven seals (Rev. 6:1-17; 8:1)
II. The seven trumpets (Rev. 8:2-10:7)
III. The seven thunders (Rev. 10:3-4)
IV. The seven bowls (Rev. 16:1-21)
Full text at the site.
The bowls etc in the book of revelation are specially targeted at apostate Israel of the 1st century AD and find their source in the old covenant:
I'll quote from planetpreterist:
In Leviticus and Deuteronomy God spoke of the plagues and curses that would come on His unfaithful old covenant people when they broke the covenant. In Leviticus 26 God told the children of Israel that if they broke the covenant He would set His face against them (Lev. 26:14-17). If Israel did not repent, God spoke of four sets of plagues and punishments that He would visit on them (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24 and 28). Each one of these sets of punishments was to have a seven fold fulfillment.
I. Leviticus 26:18: “if you do not obey Me I will punish you seven times more for your sins”
II. Leviticus 26:21. Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
III. Leviticus 26:23-24 And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
IV. Leviticus 26:27-28 And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
This pattern of Israel’s covenant punishments, four sets of punishments, each having a seven fold fulfillment, provides the structure the plagues and punishments found in the book of Revelation. The four sets of seven fold punishment in Revelation are:
I. The seven seals (Rev. 6:1-17; 8:1)
II. The seven trumpets (Rev. 8:2-10:7)
III. The seven thunders (Rev. 10:3-4)
IV. The seven bowls (Rev. 16:1-21)
Full text at the site.
5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?
Same problem - Jesus says something with a spiritual emphasis and the disciples only hear it from a physical perspective.
Note: I said with a spiritual emphasis - the Temple did fall - a physical manifestation of a spiritual occurrence.
John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
In these two examples Jesus or the writer explains the meaning of the statement. Is it necessary for every statement to be followed by an exclamation that Jesus focus is on the spiritual. If we use your process of interpretation, and three days is three thousand years, then we have around one thousand years before the temple is rebuilt.
Jesus established the New Covenant and its promises for believers throughout the world.
The dividing wall has been torn down; The Old Covenant fulfilled!
What promises do you feel you are being cheated because Jesus accomplished what He said He was going to accomplish?
We, as sinful men, deserve condemnation. Jesus has offered eternal life with Him! You feel that your deserve more?
You are upset because He may or may not kill a bunch of people in the way that you feel that he should?
I really don't get it.
"By having end-time events already taking place and Jesus already returning around 70 AD, you are leaving out the majority of the church from his promises. Do you understand that?"
The church has received His promises - the fault lies in the two plan theology which the bible knows nothing of because it's a theological invention.
There is no separate plan for the church and one for Israel.
The church is Israel and Israel is the church in it's final identity. The promises to Israel were being fulfilled in the 1st century, they were being built up into a temple for the habitation of God, what can be a better "destiny" or promise than that?
1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
And let's not forget who the strangers (diaspora) Peter is writing to - none other than the scattered tribes that were being gathered together as one stick in Christ.
(1 Pet 1:1 KJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Eph 2:20 KJV And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 KJV In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 KJV In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Hebrews states back then that they were receiving a kingdom (which continues to this day) and will continue.
(Heb 12:28 KJV) Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Dispensationalis have the kingdom not only moveable but terminates at a supposed future second coming.
The one stick of Ezekiel was already coming to pass on the day of Pentecost - read the whole Schtick in Ezekiel"
Ezek 37:16 KJV Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Ezek 37:19 KJV Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
The promises to Israel were being fulfilled in the 1st century - a church of Israelite's was being formed to which the Gentiles were added as fellow heirs:
Eph 3:6 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 2:11 KJVWherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 KJV That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Dispensationalism not only directly contradicts unambiguous biblical statements, it presents an incoherent, convoluted and schizophrenic doctrine.
And that's being kind.
The church has received His promises - the fault lies in the two plan theology which the bible knows nothing of because it's a theological invention.
There is no separate plan for the church and one for Israel.
The church is Israel and Israel is the church in it's final identity. The promises to Israel were being fulfilled in the 1st century, they were being built up into a temple for the habitation of God, what can be a better "destiny" or promise than that?
1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
And let's not forget who the strangers (diaspora) Peter is writing to - none other than the scattered tribes that were being gathered together as one stick in Christ.
(1 Pet 1:1 KJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Eph 2:20 KJV And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 KJV In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 KJV In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Hebrews states back then that they were receiving a kingdom (which continues to this day) and will continue.
(Heb 12:28 KJV) Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Dispensationalis have the kingdom not only moveable but terminates at a supposed future second coming.
The one stick of Ezekiel was already coming to pass on the day of Pentecost - read the whole Schtick in Ezekiel"
Ezek 37:16 KJV Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Ezek 37:19 KJV Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
The promises to Israel were being fulfilled in the 1st century - a church of Israelite's was being formed to which the Gentiles were added as fellow heirs:
Eph 3:6 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 2:11 KJVWherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 KJV That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Dispensationalism not only directly contradicts unambiguous biblical statements, it presents an incoherent, convoluted and schizophrenic doctrine.
And that's being kind.
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That’s curious how you worded this connecting Israel and Judah the two sticks. Why I say this is that in Daniel 10:14 the things being shown are only concerning "Daniels people" so the prophecy of 70 weeks concern Daniels people(Judah) the ones taken into captivity in Babylon in 604-586bce so the 10 northern tribes(Israel) are not denoted in this they went into captivity in Assyria between 734-721bce so the time in captivity would be completely different than that of Daniels people(Judah/Jews).
Dan 10:14 is applicable to the residents of Jerusalem in the time of Christ and it relates to:
Dan 9:24 KJV Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
"thy people and upon thy holy city" - are the people and city of 1st century Jerusalem. The scattered tribes were not considered at the time of Christ as "thy people":
Peter is not calling the diaspora "thy people" in the sense of Daniel.
1 Pet 2:10 KJV Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
That does not mean that these "now people" are the ones to receive the plagues etc. of the book of Revelation:
The 70 weeks would end when the power of "thy people" was shattered/scattered in the destruction of the temple and Judah's reign/rule ended over the children of God:
Dan 12:6 KJV And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 KJV And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
When Christ destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in the 1st century AD via the Roman armies the sceptre departed from them as the ruling authority forever:
Gen 49:1 KJV And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Peter stated they were living in the last days.
Gen 49:10 KJV The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Through the ministry of the apostles the people were being gathered in Shiloh (Christ) and those who did not hear that "prophet" were to be cut off from the people of God:
Acts 3:22 KJV For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 KJV And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Dan 9:24 KJV Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
"thy people and upon thy holy city" - are the people and city of 1st century Jerusalem. The scattered tribes were not considered at the time of Christ as "thy people":
Peter is not calling the diaspora "thy people" in the sense of Daniel.
1 Pet 2:10 KJV Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
That does not mean that these "now people" are the ones to receive the plagues etc. of the book of Revelation:
The 70 weeks would end when the power of "thy people" was shattered/scattered in the destruction of the temple and Judah's reign/rule ended over the children of God:
Dan 12:6 KJV And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 KJV And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
When Christ destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in the 1st century AD via the Roman armies the sceptre departed from them as the ruling authority forever:
Gen 49:1 KJV And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Peter stated they were living in the last days.
Gen 49:10 KJV The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Through the ministry of the apostles the people were being gathered in Shiloh (Christ) and those who did not hear that "prophet" were to be cut off from the people of God:
Acts 3:22 KJV For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 KJV And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
I would think so my self,I was considering also the things you were noting in post #249 about Leviticus and Deuteronomy and the plagues and consequences of what you had said. The conclusion would be that if it were never an land or physical kingdom being denoted and it was always speaking of one of a spiritual nature then in Deuteronomy 32:51-52 it would mean that Moses would never enter the spiritual kingdom.
The physical points to the spiritual - the physical were shadows of the spiritual, Paul alludes to this principle in Corinthians:
1 Cor 15:46 (NASB) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
1 Cor 15:46 (NASB) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
I'm not sure if I understand your meaning, in Leviticus,Deuteronomy and Daniel if it was spiritual then they were only spiritually carried away into Babylon Then Persia,Greece and then Rome? The thing about it is that they were physically captive by the heads of the beast and physically under it's punishment. So if it points to a spiritual meaning as you say then what are the spiritual fulfilments denoted by these physical events in history?