Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[iamsoandso]

howbeit if there are those to whom the second death hath no power and they are of one resurrection and there again is the second resurrection of the dead and they are judged from what is written in the books and the second death does have power over them it is apparent there is more than one program.

 

[Locutus]

The old testament prophets spoke of many "days of the Lord" in respect of judgment on both Israel and other nations. it occurs 20 times in 18 verses in the OT.

So that argument is hardly valid - you need to look up the references and how they applied at the time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The old testament prophets spoke of many "days of the Lord" in respect of judgment on both Israel and other nations. it occurs 20 times in 18 verses in the OT.

So that argument is hardly valid - you need to look up the references and how they applied at the time.

Of course you would have to say that, because it undermines what stated earlier about the time being near. It's just an apologetic. There is only one "day of the Lord," which is that time period of God's wrath that leads up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Regarding the day of the Lord, Isaiah and Zephaniah said the following:

"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.Because of this, all hands will go limp; every heart will melt with fear. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. - Isaiah.13:9-13

"Come near, you nations, and listen;pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! The Lord is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will stink; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree." - Isaiah 34:1-4

===========================================

Isaiah's mention of the stars in heaven not showing their light, links Isaiah's prophecy of the day of the Lord, as being the same as prophesied in the gospels and Revelation. The second scripture in Isaiah refers to the heavens being rolled up like a scroll linking it to the same event of the 6th seal. This demonstrates that both Isaiah and John in Revelation are speaking about the same day of the Lord, for they mention the same event. Regarding the day of the Lord, Zephaniah says the following:

"I will completely remove all things From the face of the earth,” declares the LORD. I will remove man and beast; I will remove the birds of the sky And the fish of the sea, And the ruins along with the wicked; And I will cut off man from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD."

=====================================

When has the above happened? Zephaniah's description of the day of the Lord fits perfectly with what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to accomplish, as well as the decimation of most of the population of the earth. As further proof that the OT prophets spoke of the same day of the Lord that the apostles did and is yet still to come, Joel said the following:


"Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come."

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord."

The day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is still future. The church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant in fulfillment of the seventy sevens, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will continue throughout the entire seven years, which is what will accomplish Dan.2:31-45, the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, blow away by the wind without leaving a trace (end of human government).

If you think that the tribulation has already taken place, then you and others have no idea of the severity and magnitude of what is coming. The above also demonstrates that the phrase "it is near" or "Is coming quickly" demonstrates imminency, always about to take place and that because the day of the Lord is still a future event.

 

[Timeline]

But that's too general of an answer. You're not explaining HOW the Bible leads you to preterism.

And in responding to my post, you haven't (all due respect) answered my basic question which is...since Jesus was answering the disciples' question about His return....and His return is yet in the future...why wouldn't one at least preliminarily conclude Jesus is describing events yet in the future?

Pretty simple logic, it seems to me.

Well, I think there are multiple problems with this train of thought:

1) "Second" Coming is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible - I do not want to make a big deal about this, but it is a fact.

2) People seem to think that Jesus has to bring some huge cosmic bus to pick us up - the point I am making is that God/Jesus do not need to come get us...in order for us to get to Heaven. It's a false premise. Having said that I understand where the idea comes from, scripturally speaking, but disagree with the interpretation.

3) Most people seem to believe that the Kingdom has not been established, or is going to be more fully established. I am not so sure that this is true either. I mean, I believe that the Kingdom that many are waiting for, already is. As far as it being more fully established, I also doubt. I am trying to say this carefully so that what I am saying will be understood, whether it is right or wrong (and hopefully can be corrected, if I am wrong). Yes, the world is still broken - on that we can agree. But I believe that Jesus successfully ridded Heaven of Satan's ability to accuse us before God. When Satan accused man he was right - man was guilty. But Jesus fulfilled/satisfied the Law - Creating the New Heaven and Earth.

It is commonly believed among preterists that Jesus came for the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. I am not sure about this, but I suppose it's about as good as any other theory I've come up with.

Point is, I believe that I have answered your question in multiple posts. I don't believe that Jesus is limited to "Two Comings" just because we want that to be the case. I don't believe that Jesus has to "give us a ride". I don't believe that Jesus was talking about the End of the World - as scripture doesn't say that. As far as a "New Heaven and New Earth", the wording is fairly similar to the wording when God destroyed the earth during the days of Noah, so I don't really understand why there is a tendency to understand these verses as COMPLETE DESCTRUCTION of the whole earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Also - There are 3 questions here:
When will these things happen
What will be the sign of Your coming
And (what will be the sign) of the end of the age?

Although I will say that I believe that they understood that these things were to happen at the same time. I suspect that they did (that does not mean that everything you attach to His "Second" Coming has happened)

 

[Timeline]

The various "fathers", writers etc. have been all over the place because they've tried to explain away certain scriptures instead of accepting what the scripture actually says.

The dispensationlists claim that John the Baptist was not Elijah even when Jesus said he was:

Mat 17:10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?'

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things,

Mat 17:12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.'


So why would anybody put any trust in a "theology" that directly contradicts the scripture and Jesus.

Yeah, I find this irritating. Men at the church I attend say this. I understand their reluctance and where it comes from, but if Jesus said it, who am I to challenge.

 

[Timeline]

The world has not experienced that time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again.

Genesis 9:11-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]God said, “This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; [SUP]13 [/SUP]I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.

Well, here's one Great Tribulation that wiped out all but 8 people and won't ever happen again.
I am not saying that the Flood is what Jesus was talking about - but I am saying that just because we are here is not proof that the Tribulation didn't happen.

 

[Timeline]

Seventy sets of seven year were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Sixty-nine of those seven sets of seven were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off. There remains one seven year period to be fulfilled. At the time that the Messiah was cut off, God put a hold on Israel's last seven and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend and 1 Thes.4:13-17 will take place. Once the church has been removed, then God will pick up right where he left off with Israel, who did not receive Jesus as their Messiah and will fulfill that last seven years.

"God put a hold on Israel's last seven..." is not a very literal interpretation.

 

[Timeline]

When has the above happened? Zephaniah's description of the day of the Lord fits perfectly with what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to accomplish, as well as the decimation of most of the population of the earth. As further proof that the OT prophets spoke of the same day of the Lord that the apostles did and is yet still to come, Joel said the following:


"Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come."

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord."

The day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is still future. The church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant in fulfillment of the seventy sevens, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will continue throughout the entire seven years, which is what will accomplish Dan.2:31-45, the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, blow away by the wind without leaving a trace (end of human government).

If you think that the tribulation has already taken place, then you and others have no idea of the severity and magnitude of what is coming. The above also demonstrates that the phrase "it is near" or "Is coming quickly" demonstrates imminency, always about to take place and that because the day of the Lord is still a future event.

Acts 2:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

 

[garee]

The first resurrection occurred when Christ said it was finished.All the old testament saints in which the second death had no authority over them were freed from what the scriptures call graves the bosom of Abraham as the presence of God a temporal holding place until the work of Christ was finished.All saints that die after that enter the place where the old testament saints are asleep . On the last day before God destroys this present earth and universe the saints that are on earth reining with Christ will be raised as the old testament saints both will receive their new bodies in the twinkling of the eye.

 

[garee]

The day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is still future. The church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant in fulfillment of the seventy sevens, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will continue throughout the entire seven years, which is what will accomplish Dan.2:31-45, the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, blow away by the wind without leaving a trace (end of human government).

The words day of the Lord represented the coming of the Lord in the temporal flesh for a demonstration of His Spirit being poured out on the soul of all men Jew and Gentile alike.

The day of the Lord is in respect to the introduction of the last days. The veil is rent .(plural) The last day singular describes the end of the world when all of the saints will receive their new incorruptible bodies. Six times in the book of John it relates the last resurrection with the last day, the 7 th trump and Judgment day for the unbeliever.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it Isa 2:2

For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:12

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1Jo 2:18

If you think that the tribulation has already taken place, then you and others have no idea of the severity and magnitude of what is coming. The above also demonstrates that the phrase "it is near" or "Is coming quickly" demonstrates imminency, always about to take place and that because the day of the Lord is still a future event.

That tribulation is occurring and will end of the last day .

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

its the same day spoken of by saint Job.

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:Job 19:25


1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[garee]

The day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is still future. The church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant in fulfillment of the seventy sevens, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will continue throughout the entire seven years, which is what will accomplish Dan.2:31-45, the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, blow away by the wind without leaving a trace (end of human government).

The antichrists (plural) were already there.

The words day of the Lord represented the coming of the Lord in the temporal flesh for a demonstration of His Spirit being poured out on the soul of all men Jew and Gentile alike.

The day of the Lord is in respect to the introduction of the last days (plural). The veil is rent . The last day singular describes the end of the world when all of the saints will receive their new incorruptible bodies. Six times in the book of John it relates the last resurrection with the last day, the 7 th trump and Judgment day for the unbeliever.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it Isa 2:2

For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:12

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1Jo 2:18

If you think that the tribulation has already taken place, then you and others have no idea of the severity and magnitude of what is coming. The above also demonstrates that the phrase "it is near" or "Is coming quickly" demonstrates imminency, always about to take place and that because the day of the Lord is still a future event.

That tribulation is occurring and will end of the last day .

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Its the same day spoken of by saint Job.

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:Job 19:25


1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Its all one event

 

[Locutus]

Timeline raises another good point regarding Peter quoting Joel.

Dispensationalisn claims that virtually nothing Peter stated has happened as if he said this is some of what, or a little of what, or not all of what was spoken by prophet Joel.

All what Peter quoted from Joel occurred within forty years.

This is a total mishandling of the scripture not to mention another direct contradiction.

 

[garee]

Timeline raises another good point regarding Peter quoting Joel.

Dispensationalisn claims that virtually nothing Peter stated has happened as if he said this is some of what, or a little of what, or not all of what was spoken by prophet Joel.

All what Peter quoted from Joel occurred within forty years.

This is a total mishandling of the scripture not to mention another direct contradiction.

Makes me wonder just what is the purpose of dispensationalism? God works purifying the hearts all men making them soft by a work of His faith that comes from hearing His word from the beginning to the end? Why the different time periods?

 

[iamsoandso]

Timeline raises another good point regarding Peter quoting Joel.

Dispensationalisn claims that virtually nothing Peter stated has happened as if he said this is some of what, or a little of what, or not all of what was spoken by prophet Joel.

All what Peter quoted from Joel occurred within forty years.

This is a total mishandling of the scripture not to mention another direct contradiction.

"occurred within 40 years",that would then be setting a time period where it began and ended and it is about 40 years later when 1 Corinthians was written. No offence is meant by me pointing that out but it made me realize that you already knew what the D'ist would bring up in debate about Acts 2.

 

[Locutus]

The consensus on the writing of 1 cor is around 53-54 AD.

As for bringing up Acts 2, this is one of many contradictions in dispensationalism., such as the two program invention:

Jesus stated:

Mat 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [fn]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I don't see where he said there would be more than one gospel with two programs, one for the Jews/Israel and one for the church:

Did James write to the 12 scattered tribes that they were responding to a two "program" gospel? Or that they were on program A and the gentiles on program B?

Jas 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

 

[iamsoandso]

Not that I am a supporter of either but I think it would depend on which of the two main groups of dispensationist who might even argue their position on the matter. At Plymouth, or among the original Plymouth brethren they argued the same issue among their own selves in history. There was Darby and there was Benjamin w. Newton and the groups that followed one of the two,one considered the 12 out of the BoC and the other considered the 12 in the BoC. So those among the ones who felt/feel that the 12 are "in the BoC" would use the very same scriptures to prove their cause against their own fellow dispensationist.

Now as MattTooFor it seems is pointing out in his thread title "or merely modified" in regards to preterist it is also true among dispensationist that they themselves hold a modified type position concerning the same area of scripture. I'll give an example I had waited now 10 or 11 hours to see if one of the D'ist would respond to what you said but they have not. So in general most would have said that their case in point was that what was offered in Acts 2 was offered for around 40 years until the statement's "we turn to the Gentiles" Acts 13:46,Acts 18:6. That would be though another division among Dispensationist one being Mid Acts Dispensationist or Acts 13 Dispensationist one would hold to Acts 18 the other to 13 as the turning point. Neither of the two it seems are denoting the 40 years from the chronological order from Acts but rather from the date that 1Corinthians was written because it is where Paul makes the statement "as for prophecies they shall fail,tongues will cease ect.".

The point I think that they would make is that Jesus had made the statement in Luke 24:44 that in Acts 2 (a prophecy of Joel) would be in the group from Moses to John the Baptist from Matthew 11:13-53. In the statement made by Jesus in Luke 24:44 he is speaking of the things written of " concerning me"(he refers to himself) speaking of things that were written about himself. In the case of Acts 2 the quote from Joel is included in the group i.e."Moses,Psalms,Prophets" but it is in regards to an event that would happen to Israel/Judah so in aspect to "concerning me" in Luke 24:44 that are written of Jesus would be the "I send" in Luke 24:49. So in Acts 2 the events are written of Israel and Judah but also events spoken of Egypt and Edom ,Joel 3;19 and Tyre and Zidon and all the coast of Palestine Joel 3:4 and to all nations Joel 3:2.

In Luke 24:44 "I send" who is Jesus it is also written of him that he would bring the captivity "I shall bring",Joel 3:1 ,he will gather all nations "I will" Joel 3:2 he will show wonders, Joel 2:30, he will pour out his spirit on all flesh and he will restore the years the locust had eaten Joel 2:25 and many other things that he mentions that he will,I will,ect.

The debate though I suppose is in Acts 2 did each and every thing happen all at once in Acts 2:16 or was it only one of the events spoken of by Joel concerning Israel and Judah or all flesh? This then if it all were fulfilled in Acts 2 is the "day of the Lord" Joel 2:1-2 and then if from Acts 2 to ad70 is approximately 37 years then the battle described in Joel and the event in Acts 2 are 37 years apart in fulfilment. Now the things written of Egypt,Tyre,Zidon,Edom ect. were they fulfilled in Acts 2 or is Egypt still an nation and is Edom populated by the Jordanians?

It is I think very interesting to witness and ponder the debate between the dispensationist and the preterits and the modifier's of both on these matters. They both it seems end up at the same place in all of their debates it always narrows itself down to the AoB,the mark,the day of judgement ect, and without being able to clarify without any doubt the issue of the beast, his mark and the AoD they are stuck in gridlock. I am neither of the two in mind so it is natural for me to gather in the things spoken by both that are sound and cast off the unsound of both.

 

[Locutus]

It's possible to wander around from verse to verse seeking to explain a particular "end time" theology - but if the pivots points on which all of prophecies hang then fail to take seriously and into account what Jesus said here the theology is just fanciful foot work:

Luke 21:20 KJV And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

All things include what Peter spoke of from Joel, what Paul spoke of from various prophets - so if "all things" that were written were to fulfilled in the days of Jerusalem when it was compassed by armies what is left to be fulfilled?

Luke 21:32 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Bookends]

This may be a very short-lived thread. I'm just curious as to whether some people here aren't so much "preterist" as they are simply rejecting "pre-tribulation rapture" false doctrine?

In other words, when all the trials and tribulations of this old world are done with...you do believe God places all humanity in front of Him for a momentous Judgement Day, don't you? Or maybe you don't. That's why I ask. But that, to me...would just be a modified "post-trib" position.

Jesus said "in this world you will have tribulation". After that, when the world ends and there is this "Judgment Day" where both the "great and small" stand before God and the saints are tasked with participation in this judging process (1Cor. 6:2-3)...we have to get up to heaven somehow, right?

So that would mean we have to have a "rapture" (a supernatural translation) of some form or fashion. Unless (as I said before) we're going to use giants catapults or souped-up 747's.

I had a brief exchange with one guy here who doesn't believe we go to heaven at all (if I understood correctly)! Thinks it was an idea concocted by 15th century monks (or said something like that).

Just curious.

I'm a orthodox preterist, I believe in the second coming of Christ in which Jesus will hand over the kingdom to God the father as stated by Paul in 2 Corinthians 15 (not take it up again on Earth for a 1000 years). I'm generally on the fence about the future of the world, however, I know Jesus taught us to pray "may Your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven." It seems to me that God wants this Earth to be a better place, Jesus also promises to give us "abundant life" now, in which I feel is more then just a spiritual state of being. Yes, we will face trials and tribulations, for our good and spiritual growth, however, we will not experience His wrath (to major differences in which I think some Christians blend together and get confused). I'm thinking, that heaven is a good place, a real good place, and eventually heaven will be on Earth, the eternal state, when Christ comes again. I believe in a rapture, but not how dispensationalist teach it. I believe we will meet Christ in the air and continue down with Him to a remade Earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

things include what Peter spoke of from Joel, what Paul spoke of from various prophets - so if "all things" that were written were to fulfilled in the days of Jerusalem when it was compassed by armies what is left to be fulfilled?

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

Peter was quoting from Joel and should have stopped with the above, for what is written below has yet to take place.

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Luke 21:32 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Leading up to the verse above, Jesus listed the signs that would take place prior to and leading up to His return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, the "this generation" in the verse, is in reference to the generation where those signs take place and not the generation that Jesus was speaking from. The signs are what will identify that last generation. Needless to say, none of those signs have yet taken place, of which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong to. We have seen none of those events of wrath.

 

[Timeline]

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

Peter was quoting from Joel and should have stopped with the above, for what is written below has yet to take place.

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.



Leading up to the verse above, Jesus listed the signs that would take place prior to and leading up to His return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, the "this generation" in the verse, is in reference to the generation where those signs take place and not the generation that Jesus was speaking from. The signs are what will identify that last generation. Needless to say, none of those signs have yet taken place, of which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong to. We have seen none of those events of wrath.

We have been over this before. I will believe the Scripture and not your speculation that Peter and the Holy Spirit messed up.